#460 list/@type="unordered" is not recommended, but used often

GREEN
closed-fixed
Martin Holmes
9(high)
2014-08-31
2012-10-25
Martin Holmes
No

The definition of list/@type suggests these values:

ordered
list items are numbered or lettered.
bulleted
list items are marked with a bullet or other typographic device.
simple
list items are not numbered or bulleted. [Default]
gloss
each list item glosses some term or concept, which is given by a label element preceding the list item.

However, the stylesheets are peppered with uses of "unordered" (which used to be in there, but is not any more). These should be replaced with "bulleted", presumably.

Related

Bugs: #460

Discussion

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  • Kevin Hawkins
    Kevin Hawkins
    2013-04-25

    I don't agree with Martin that we should keep changes to a minimum. While we are disrupting things for our users, we might as well take the opportunity to rectify anything else that needs rectifying.

    Still, I agree with Brett that "ordered" is intuitive for most people that we need not be concerned about the restricted meaning of "ordered list" in computer science and possibly formal linguistics.

    For @rend, I would actually prefer if we dropped "ordered" as a suggested value and included "decimal", "lower-roman", and "upper-roman" (or something similar) as some sample values. To me, @rend should more precisely describe rendering in a source document than simply "ordered" (or "sequential"). Even though we are trying to differentiate between @type and @rend, giving something like "ordered" as a sample value continues to blur the distinction because, in my mind at least, there is a strong semantic difference between an ordered and unordered list. If I were composing a document in TEI, in many cases I would happily use @type='ordered' and @type='unordered' to control whether the list should be rendered with some sort of numbering/letter or some sort of bullets. Therefore, I suggest giving the following sample values for @type:

    ordered
    unordered
    gloss
    ingredients
    syllogism

    That will get people started down the path of imagining their own typology of lists.

     
  • Martin Holmes
    Martin Holmes
    2013-04-25

    Surely we just had this discussion at the Council meeting, and decided that "ordered" and "unordered" are not types of list; they relate to rendering. If you want to get into the types of numbering, the way to do it is surely with @style and all the list-style-type values. Lists are inherently ordered, and cannot be otherwise; the distinction between "ordered" and "unordered" which we share with HTML's ul vs ol elements is actually a distinction between numbered-in-some-way and bulleted-in-some-way; and those are rendering things, albeit not very precise.

     
  • Kevin Hawkins
    Kevin Hawkins
    2013-04-25

    Okay, right, the discussion at Council is coming back to me. Sorry for not reviewing the minutes before responding.

    If Council decided that lists are inherently ordered and can't be otherwise (I see where that comes from and partly agree, though I still like the idea of an unordered list), then I retract my previous comment except for the following parts ...

    I don't agree with Martin that we should keep changes to a minimum. While we are disrupting things for our users, we might as well take the opportunity to rectify anything else that needs rectifying.

    Still, I agree with Brett that "ordered" is intuitive for most people that we need not be concerned about the restricted meaning of "ordered list" in computer science and possibly formal linguistics.

     
  • James Cummings
    James Cummings
    2013-11-09

    What remains to be done on this ticket?

     
  • examples all changed @rend to @type, I believe, and the stylesheets supported that. I'd suggest we close this until it comes up again.

     
  • Martin Holmes
    Martin Holmes
    2013-11-10

    Both @rend and @type are still in use in the Glines, and the values "ordered" and "simple" are both used. We even have <list rend="runon" type="ordered">. I think I should do a quick audit of what we're actually doing now, and compare it with what we're advising, then we can decide whether it's worth taking any action or not.

     
  • Martin Holmes
    Martin Holmes
    2013-12-20

    Analysis of usage of list/@type and list/@rend in the Guidelines:

    Our suggested values for list/@type are:

    ordered, bulleted, simple, gloss

    In Guidelines prose, we use:

    list type="gloss": 59
    list type="simple": 107
    list type="ordered": 32
    list rend="simple": 4
    list rend="ordered": 4
    list rend="specList": 1

    In examples:

    list type="ordered": 19
    list type="gloss": 25
    list type="speakers": 8
    list type="simple": 8
    list type="bullets": 3
    list type="unordered": 2
    list type="index": 2
    list type="attendance": 2
    list type="參與者": 1
    list type="inline": 1
    list type="indexentry": 1
    list type="encoders": 3
    list type="編碼員": 1
    list rend="runon": 5

     
  • Martin Holmes
    Martin Holmes
    2013-12-20

    Brief analysis and recommendations sent to Council list 2013-12-20.

     
  • Martin Holmes
    Martin Holmes
    2014-06-30

    Council (2014-06-30) decides this is release blocking. Martin and Syd to carry it out. All of council to read the wiki page and feedback to M & S within a week.

     
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