Thread: [Snowballz-general] Chat 2/18/05 (till 4:36pm)
Status: Pre-Alpha
Brought to you by:
ratchet
From: C R. <zra...@mi...> - 2005-02-18 22:40:14
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[12:05] --> You are now talking on #snowballz [12:05] --- Topic for #snowballz is Snowball Surprise | http://snowballz.literati.org | http://sf.net/projects/snowballz | Game Info: https://sourceforge.net/docman/?group_id=115994 | Screenshots: https://sourceforge.net/project/screenshots.php?group_id=115994 | BerliOS mirror (needs content): http://developer.berlios.de/projects/snowballz | Get on the mailing list sno...@li... | Release of flying game coming soon! | Get CVS for minigames... [12:05] --- Topic for #snowballz set by ChanServ at Sat Feb 5 06:54:50 [12:05] <d1223m> hi z [12:06] <d1223m> TFK, does it draw the map "properly" for you with your code? [12:06] <d1223m> i have some extra blocks.. [12:06] <zratchet> hi d1223m :) [12:06] <TFK> Merely doing this is probelmatic because how will the code know when it needs to get the floor or the map cube? [12:06] <TFK> Hmmm, yes, perfectly. [12:06] <TFK> What kind of extra blocks? [12:06] <zratchet> hm... nothing committed yet eh? [12:06] <d1223m> i have 1 row and column more than it needs [12:07] <zratchet> TFK: I forgot, you have to do cvs add <filename> before cvs commit [12:07] <TFK> Howdy ratchet [12:07] <zratchet> sry [12:07] <zratchet> when adding new files that is [12:07] <zratchet> if just editing old files you don't have to do that [12:07] <TFK> Well, right now I'm trying to figure out what exactly to work on with d1223m :-/ [12:07] <zratchet> ok [12:07] <TFK> As I'm not entirely sure what he will refactor when he finishes the Balazar Bomber gamelet. [12:07] <zratchet> well don't forget the scoring system, that is important [12:07] <zratchet> yeah [12:07] <zratchet> ok [12:08] <TFK> OK, into that I will look. [12:08] <zratchet> d1223m: do you think the scoring system mmarshall set up will need to be refactored? [12:08] <TFK> d1223m, you are correct :O [12:08] <d1223m> at the end of all this i plan to have a soya framework and pywracer and snowballz being almost entirely logic and gameplay [12:09] <zratchet> k [12:09] <zratchet> so the code we make for scoring and menus will probably be drawn into it right? [12:09] <d1223m> the scoring will all be in snowballz [12:10] <d1223m> i need to make a new StatedIdler [12:10] <d1223m> that is next hurdle [12:10] <TFK> Ah, so I can work on the scoring without being afraid that it will get overwritten during The Big Refactor? :-P [12:10] <d1223m> sure [12:10] <d1223m> scoring is game logic no? [12:11] <TFK> "Logic" is not always part of scoring :-/ [12:12] <zratchet> yeah, but what about menu/scoring display? will the menu system be in the refactor or not? [12:12] <d1223m> i will only change the menu idlers and stuff [12:12] <TFK> Well the question is will it be in d1223m's refactor. [12:12] <d1223m> switching game states in snowballz isnt nice [12:13] <TFK> So I can hack on anything non-idler related? [12:13] <d1223m> and i hate the GameIdler code [12:13] <d1223m> sure, anything todo with raypicking, scoring, etc [12:13] <d1223m> but we're going to make new soya widget system too [12:14] <TFK> OK. Hopefully the last time I ask that question ^_^; [12:14] <d1223m> so that could break everything :) [12:14] <TFK> ;_; [12:15] <TFK> Hmm. [12:15] <zratchet> 0_0 [12:15] * TFK wonders why the extra row... [12:15] <d1223m> it might just be a prob with the diff [12:16] <zratchet> why are some smileys :) and some *u* etc... ;) ? [12:16] <d1223m> sometimes it tries to be too clever [12:16] <d1223m> heh [12:16] <zratchet> I read recently the ^-^ system is from japanese stuff (ie manga) [12:16] <zratchet> while :) comes from american users [12:17] <TFK> Nah, the thing is I'm having this problem as well... I just didn't notice it :-/ [12:17] <d1223m> ah ok [12:17] <d1223m> hehe [12:17] <TFK> Yeah, ^_^ is a Japanese smiley ^_^ [12:17] <TFK> It's a whole smiley culture there ;-) [12:17] <TFK> *g* stuff are from Usenet, I think [12:18] <d1223m> *grin* [12:19] <TFK> DOH! [12:19] <TFK> Fixed it! [12:19] <TFK> change line 115 to (r == 0 or c == 0 or r == border_row or c == border_col): [12:20] <TFK> It wasnt' one extra row, it was a wall that appeared before it should've :-/ [12:20] <zratchet> yeah I've seen all 3 - :) ^_^ and *grin* or *g* or :g: or <g> hehe [12:20] <zratchet> guess that's more than 3 :p [12:20] <d1223m> TFK, ah yes :) [12:21] <zratchet> so... TFK no commits yet I see... what code is this you're looking at now? snowballz or balazar-bomber? [12:22] <TFK> balazar-bomber [12:22] <TFK> I will commit tomorrow! :O [12:24] <zratchet> ok [12:24] <zratchet> :) [12:25] * zratchet thinks that's what TFK said yesterday :S [12:25] <zratchet> 0~0 [12:25] <TFK> :-/ [12:26] <TFK> Again, I could commit what changes I made already. [12:26] <zratchet> its all right... ;) just noticed... [12:26] <zratchet> yeah [12:26] <TFK> Ya know what, I will, just for the kicks :-) [12:26] <zratchet> if you want to... [12:26] <zratchet> k [12:26] <TFK> Ha! [12:26] <zratchet> hehe [12:28] <zratchet> its all right, I don't want to keep you from going on... [12:28] <zratchet> I'm just interested to see what you've done ;) [12:28] <TFK> You'll see once I commit! :O [12:28] <TFK> Err, -m doesn't work to add a message, though. [12:28] <zratchet> erg [12:29] <zratchet> thought it did [12:29] <zratchet> :p [12:29] * TFK mans cvs [12:29] <zratchet> oh well [12:30] <zratchet> (about the -m) [12:30] <zratchet> hey btw... I got my blog going :) http://zratchet.tk [12:31] <TFK> :O I need write access :-/ [12:31] <zratchet> erk... [12:31] <zratchet> should have it [12:31] <TFK> I probably do, I just don't know how to use it :-/ [12:31] * TFK goes to sourceforge docs [12:31] <d1223m> cvs commit -m "my message" file1 file2 [12:32] <TFK> I figured that out from the man :-) [12:32] <d1223m> but you can not bother and it will popup your default editor [12:32] <TFK> for the message? [12:32] <d1223m> yea [12:33] <zratchet> developer access to the repository may be granted/blocked entirely using the "Allow access to CVS repository" option (this will grant/block both read and write access via SSH; if blocked, developer must use anonymous pserver for read access). [12:34] <zratchet> your Allow access to CVS repository is checked, TFK :) [12:34] * TFK nods [12:34] <d1223m> its probably because you have not checked it out as a developer [12:34] <TFK> It says I have to substitute modulename with my devname o.o [12:34] <TFK> Yup. [12:34] <d1223m> you cannot check it out anonymous [12:35] <d1223m> its on the snowballz/sf cvs page [12:35] <zratchet> er [12:35] <zratchet> not module name [12:35] <TFK> Yes, I am reading it atm :-) [12:35] <d1223m> ah i see [12:35] <zratchet> modulename is snowballz/sf [12:35] <zratchet> or whatever [12:35] <zratchet> snowballz [12:35] <TFK> Oh, right, substitute modulename and developername with the proper values. [12:35] <d1223m> well fyi just click the browse cvs link [12:35] <TFK> Meh, I'll figure it out. [12:35] <zratchet> hehe [12:35] <zratchet> took me a while to figure CVS out too [12:36] --- We'll miss you [12:36] <d1223m> most projects have http cvs viewer and the first page is always the modules in the repos [12:41] <TFK> Pfft... doing a "checkout" now :-) [13:12] <zratchet> wee :) gmail offers *free 1gb pop mail* now!!! :D [13:15] <TFK> Old news ;-) [13:16] <zratchet> hehe [13:16] <zratchet> well they just emailed me that... :p [13:16] <zratchet> hard to believe free pop mail... [13:16] <zratchet> I've waited a long time for that kind of thing... [13:16] <zratchet> considering how nasty normal webmail usually is... I'm glad my ISP supports POP mail ;) [13:17] <TFK> Nah. Gmail's interface is very nice. [13:18] <zratchet> yes its the nicest I've seen [13:19] <zratchet> I used to use hotmail :p [13:19] <zratchet> hehe [13:19] <zratchet> and linuxwaves mail [13:19] <zratchet> it was somewhat better, but not as good as gmail [13:19] <zratchet> ;) [13:19] <zratchet> and I use mindspring/earthlink mail [13:19] <zratchet> ;) [13:19] <zratchet> applemail client [13:21] <TFK> And one gmail to rule them all! [13:21] <zratchet> hehe [13:21] <zratchet> I have gmail and mindspring mail plugged into apple mail [13:22] <zratchet> don't really use the linuxwaves or hotmail anymore [13:22] <zratchet> so... [13:22] <zratchet> any questions for me anyone? ;) [13:22] --- Does this mean you're really back? [13:24] <TFK> *the silence of doom* [13:27] <zratchet> :p [13:27] <zratchet> hehe [13:27] <zratchet> well... [13:27] <zratchet> committed yet? ;) [13:31] <zratchet> well, music should be coming along for snowball surprise (and sfx) according to Bob Frazier :D [13:32] <d1223m> the source for that sdl 3d audio is available now [13:32] <d1223m> just get the latest instinctive blender source [13:32] <d1223m> by intrr [13:32] <zratchet> ? [13:33] <zratchet> 3d audio w/out openal? [13:33] <d1223m> openal replacement just using sdl [13:33] <zratchet> hm [13:33] <zratchet> sounds interesting [13:33] <zratchet> :) [13:33] <zratchet> going to have audio in your framework? [13:33] <zratchet> TFK: whats up? working on figuring out CvS still? [13:33] <d1223m> no nothing that high level [13:33] <zratchet> ok... [13:34] <zratchet> I mean will you link to/wrap audio stuff so its easy to access? [13:34] <d1223m> well thats completely seperate [13:34] <zratchet> ok [13:34] <d1223m> maybe if i have time [13:34] <zratchet> just thought since you're doing graphics and networking you might do that too... :S [13:35] <d1223m> im not doing networking [13:35] <TFK> zratchet, yeah. gimme some time ehre :-/ [13:35] <zratchet> TFK: ok ;) [13:35] <zratchet> yeah jovian is right? [13:35] <d1223m> yea [13:35] <zratchet> k [13:35] <zratchet> maybe we can get Bob Frazier to do audio part... since he did talk about maybe doing audio programming [13:36] <zratchet> tell him about that sdl 3d audio thing (email...) [13:36] <d1223m> who is he? irc nick? [13:36] <zratchet> shbrngdo [13:36] <d1223m> ah [13:36] <d1223m> ok [13:36] <TFK> Say, is freakazoid still working on snowballz? [13:36] <zratchet> well... [13:36] <zratchet> he's mainly behind the scenes (physics/ode integration) [13:36] <zratchet> why? [13:37] <TFK> Well, he didn't come here when he was online. [13:37] <zratchet> ah [13:37] <zratchet> he doesn't always [13:37] * TFK nods [13:38] <d1223m> always/ever [13:38] <zratchet> he does once in a while [13:38] <TFK> xD [13:39] <d1223m> TFK, you know how to determine what version of python is running from inside a python script? [13:39] <TFK> sys.__version__ [13:39] <TFK> But that's a very long script O_O [13:39] <TFK> err, string [13:39] <TFK> Why do you need to? [13:41] <d1223m> cos i want to know what version of python his blender is using [13:42] <TFK> Oh, inside Blender... [13:42] <d1223m> yes :) [14:02] <TFK> I think I know what the problem is. My box username and my sourceforge username don't match :-/ [14:25] <TFK> Mmm, it should've commited flying.py. Can anyone confirm? [14:28] <TFK> Also, a question about CVS culture: how often should I commit (what kind of changes require a commit)? [14:28] <TFK> zratchet, also, did you read any JoS articles? :-P [14:40] <zratchet> TFK: not yet... [14:40] <zratchet> TFK: login to sf first [14:41] <zratchet> (thru CVS [14:41] <zratchet> there are instructions on that on the CVS page... [14:41] <zratchet> any changes you want to be in the game, commit... if they're minor they can wait, but if you change more than one file, I'd say commit [14:42] <TFK> OKie [14:43] <TFK> No, I mean I already commited flying.py [14:43] <zratchet> ok [14:43] <zratchet> thats fine [14:43] <zratchet> I'll update [14:43] <TFK> I just wonder if you can get it from CVS or did I screw something up :-) [14:43] <zratchet> hehe [14:44] <zratchet> it got it [14:44] <TFK> :D [14:47] <zratchet> <Values at 0x139caf8: {'levelset': 'levelset1', 'loop': False, 'level': None}> [] [14:47] <zratchet> why does it do this now? [14:47] <zratchet> it didn't used ot [14:47] <zratchet> *to [14:47] <zratchet> no errors... but just wondered [14:48] <zratchet> should anything you did change gameplay at all? [14:48] <TFK> err, should have removed that print statement >_< [14:48] <TFK> I was testing why it keeps giving errors that a certain level isn't there. [14:49] <zratchet> ok [14:50] <zratchet> so what have you actually done so far? ;) [14:50] <zratchet> er [14:50] <zratchet> committed [14:50] <zratchet> I know... flying.py [14:50] <zratchet> but what's changed? ;) [14:51] <zratchet> TFK ? [14:51] <TFK> Hard to tell now... should've made a diff first >_< [14:51] <zratchet> well [14:52] <zratchet> you can still check out old versions [14:52] <zratchet> like we did with menu.py [14:52] <TFK> Well, I tried to make it crash less arbitrarily. [14:52] <zratchet> ok [14:52] <zratchet> still need to figure out the out bug... ;) [14:52] <TFK> There are several. [14:53] <zratchet> ok [14:53] <TFK> I would post them to the bug track if anybody else was working at it. [14:53] <TFK> Although I guess I could submit them and then assign them to myself! :D [14:53] <zratchet> well doesn't hurt to post them there so others can see... ;) [14:53] <zratchet> that way people can contribute etc ;) [14:54] <zratchet> so [14:54] <zratchet> any questions? [14:54] <TFK> I'll ask them as they come. [14:55] <TFK> Although I am tempted to ask how to get a previous version from CVS without looking at the manual :-P [14:56] <zratchet> hm [14:56] <zratchet> look at fixcvs.sh in the menu dir [14:56] <zratchet> that command... [14:58] --- We'll miss you [14:58] --> wansti (~op...@p5...) has joined #snowballz [14:59] --> Terrasque (Un...@15...) has joined #snowballz [14:59] <Terrasque> hello, all you weird people! [14:59] <Terrasque> *waves* [15:00] <TFK> howdy [15:00] <wansti> hi [15:10] <TFK> Actually, I have a question: are we really planning to do everything the sourceforge description says? [15:10] <zratchet> hm [15:11] <zratchet> Snowball Surprise is a strategic, action packed 3D team game that's so cool it's freezing! The penguin inhabitants of Avatarctica love playing games such as Snowball Fight, Capture The Flag, Tag, and Soccer! Made with Python and OpenGL. [15:11] <zratchet> this you mean? [15:11] <zratchet> yes I'd *like* to [15:11] <zratchet> hi wansti [15:11] <zratchet> :) [15:11] <TFK> Yes, I mean that one. [15:11] <wansti> :-) [15:11] <TFK> Well first of all I was under the impression that Snowballz will primarily be an avatar-based RTS. [15:12] <TFK> And while I'm talking about RTSs, another one that implemented the first-person view is Dungeon Keeper! [15:12] <zratchet> yeah [15:12] <zratchet> well [15:12] <TFK> Which was an awesome game (1 and 2), and it was very cool to do battle in an FPS style and then go back to your overseer mode :-) [15:12] <TFK> But back to snowballz! [15:13] <zratchet> I'm kind of mixing together ideas from RTS, RPG, and FPS (and MMO) games [15:13] <TFK> Yes, but they all sound like a collection of minigames. [15:13] <zratchet> so there will be resource collection, etc [15:13] <zratchet> well [15:13] <zratchet> snowball fight, etc are the game modes [15:13] <TFK> What will the main game really be? [15:13] <zratchet> like you have different modes in RTS too... [15:14] <zratchet> well [15:14] <zratchet> how I'd like it to be [15:14] <zratchet> would be a seamless world [15:14] <zratchet> which could be played online or offline [15:14] <TFK> The only RTS modes I know are Compaign, Multiplayer and Skirmish xD [15:14] <zratchet> and there will be arenas where you can play the different games [15:14] <zratchet> and adventure or puzzle areas [15:15] <TFK> So where does the RTS come in? [15:15] <zratchet> and what I call a wilds area where you can do stuff and catch and tame creatures like polar bears etc [15:15] <zratchet> mostly in the form of being able to stockpile certain resources [15:15] <zratchet> snow, ice, maybe wood/whalebone etc [15:15] <TFK> I.e., one team vs. the other, all-out snowball/smelly fish warfare? :D [15:15] <zratchet> hehe [15:15] <zratchet> yeah... [15:15] <zratchet> but you will be able to build buildings and collect stuff as in an RTS [15:16] <TFK> But it won't be an RTS? To what end is the player collecting resources? [15:16] <zratchet> they'll be usable by the team... [15:16] <zratchet> each player is basically a unit [15:16] * TFK nods [15:16] <zratchet> I see being able to zoom out to a RTS like view and right-click to a far away location to go there [15:16] <zratchet> or zoom in and move with the arrow keys [15:17] <zratchet> truly crossing the boundary between RTS and FPS [15:17] <TFK> That's the UI, but what about the gameplay? [15:17] <zratchet> or RPG [15:17] <zratchet> well [15:17] <TFK> Heh, did you get any BattleZone demoes? :-P [15:17] <zratchet> I'd like to be able to tame creatures [15:18] <zratchet> and you'll be able to use them in a RTS-type style [15:18] <zratchet> tame polar bears, yaks, huskies etc... [15:18] <zratchet> ;) [15:18] <zratchet> no... [15:18] <TFK> You'll send them to do battle against each other? [15:18] <zratchet> I don't know, battlezone doesn't really appeal to me :p [15:18] <TFK> Group entire armies, assault the base of the other team? [15:18] <zratchet> well [15:18] <TFK> Pillage their fish stockpiles? [15:18] <zratchet> perhaps [15:18] <zratchet> hehe [15:18] <zratchet> but you'll also have your avatar [15:18] <zratchet> and your teammates avatars [15:19] <TFK> Checking out the demo requires... 30 minutes of invested time? ;-) [15:19] <zratchet> and they can snowball fight, collect resources, etc too [15:19] <zratchet> yeah.. [15:19] <TFK> You can't cross boundaries if you don't know what's out there ;-) [15:19] <TFK> BTW, did you play Dungeon Keeper? [15:19] <zratchet> no... [15:19] <TFK> Chalk it up to "demoes I should check out" [15:19] <zratchet> I want to be original though [15:20] <zratchet> if I check out a demo, it may make me want to change my ideas... [15:20] <TFK> So? o.o [15:20] <zratchet> :p [15:20] <zratchet> hehe [15:20] <zratchet> yes... [15:20] <TFK> To something possibly better. [15:20] <zratchet> but all the games that are this style are not really the kind of games I like [15:20] <TFK> At least DG2 features FP-view, don't remember DG1 too well. [15:20] <zratchet> completely different settings.. you know? [15:20] <TFK> What do you mean, "style"? They showcase a well-done first-person UI in an RTS game. [15:20] <zratchet> scifi or fantasy... not arctic ;) [15:21] <zratchet> yeah... [15:21] <zratchet> well [15:21] <zratchet> I think really probably videos would do the trick [15:21] <TFK> That is irrelevant to the type-of-UI, imho. [15:21] <TFK> Dungeon Keeper is not sci-fi, but actually fantasy. [15:21] <zratchet> do you know if there are videos/trailers of these games? [15:21] <zratchet> yeah... [15:21] <zratchet> is World of Warcraft anything similar to these? [15:21] <TFK> I think so, yes. [15:21] <zratchet> well [15:22] <TFK> Never played WoW. [15:22] <TFK> I thought it was a MMORPG? [15:22] <zratchet> I'd really rather watch a trailer than play these... they just don't really fit my style [15:22] <TFK> Didn't get to play any of the newer games, really :-( [15:22] * TFK shrugs [15:22] <zratchet> I play more the AoE style of RTS's [15:22] <zratchet> but I have read reviews, etc of these... [15:22] <zratchet> and looked at screens [15:22] <zratchet> so I know what's out there [15:23] <zratchet> but [15:23] <TFK> That is my suggestion. If you want to design games, you have to play them. [15:23] <zratchet> seeing what's already been done, I want to make something new and different [15:23] <zratchet> I do think snowball surprise may be massively multiplayer even at some point... [15:23] <TFK> Oh man. How dash would beat you up for these words xD [15:24] <zratchet> it can still have RTS aspects, but having it persistant would be interesting... [15:24] <zratchet> what do you think? [15:24] <TFK> I think that you need to better define the goals :-) [15:24] <zratchet> well [15:24] <zratchet> ask questions on the wiki [15:24] <zratchet> post ideas [15:24] <zratchet> and I do have a bunch of ideas I'm going to post [15:24] <zratchet> but... [15:25] <zratchet> *I Want To Get This Minigame Release Done* [15:25] <zratchet> hehe [15:25] <TFK> Sure. [15:25] <zratchet> just so people can *see* something and get interested [15:25] <zratchet> that's where most of my energy is right now [15:25] <zratchet> once its out... then I will work on fleshing out design [15:25] <TFK> But I suggest you give thought to where the project will go after the minigames are playable :-) [15:25] <zratchet> sometimes you have to do that [15:25] <zratchet> I already have quite a bit of material that I'll be posting [15:25] <TFK> Fair enough. [15:26] <TFK> So the main minigame to work on is flying, as I gather? [15:26] <zratchet> yes [15:26] <zratchet> for now [15:26] <zratchet> and [15:26] <zratchet> I think that if we are able to do the seamless offline/online world [15:26] <zratchet> these minigames can go into an arcade type room [15:26] <zratchet> so they won't just be tech demos [15:27] <zratchet> I see having arcade areas [15:27] <zratchet> adventure areas so you can learn about different abilities and stuff [15:27] <zratchet> train your avatar... [15:27] <zratchet> puzzle areas [15:27] <zratchet> rts arena areas [15:27] <zratchet> and the wilds wehre you pick up powerups, abilities, and find friends for your team [15:28] <zratchet> and "teams" will be important [15:28] <zratchet> because they get to pool resources they collect [15:28] <zratchet> and have to defend their snowfort etc [15:28] <zratchet> if its a persistant world, this could be quite fun [15:28] <zratchet> ;) [15:28] <zratchet> eh? [15:28] <zratchet> TFK? [15:29] <zratchet> it will all have overreaching rts-like things - gathering resources, building snowforts and catapults and sleds [15:29] <zratchet> training avatars with new abilities [15:29] <zratchet> taming creatures [15:29] <zratchet> and its teams of characters that are the units [15:29] <zratchet> instead of one person playing [15:29] <zratchet> it will be teams [15:29] <zratchet> team rts [15:29] <zratchet> in a persistant world [15:30] <zratchet> sound fun? [15:30] <zratchet> a big project I know [15:30] <zratchet> but we can split it into minigames as you say [15:30] <zratchet> and add new sections to the world as we go [15:30] <zratchet> and [15:30] <zratchet> have a *beta world* [15:31] <zratchet> whirlpools can be used to good effect to warp between areas... ie secret clubhouses or the beta world [15:31] <zratchet> and have it so players can add arenas and stuff to the world too [15:31] <zratchet> :) [15:31] <zratchet> so does this help with overarching vision of the project some? [15:31] <zratchet> (I'll have to post this to the wiki) [15:31] <zratchet> TFK? why aren't you responding??? [15:31] --- Does this mean you're really back? [15:32] --- We'll miss you [15:32] <zratchet> TFK sorry for the rather long rant... but you got me going hehe ;) [15:32] <TFK> Err, sorry [15:33] <TFK> Was afk to make tea [15:33] * TFK starts reading the logs O_O [15:33] <zratchet> hehe [15:33] <zratchet> ok [15:33] <TFK> I tend to go afk like that - don't mind it ;-) [15:33] <zratchet> hehe ok [15:33] <zratchet> I going afk for food now too ;) [15:37] <TFK> It sounds interesting, but I think that it has a lot of pitfalls. [15:37] <TFK> From the point of view of the philosophy of design, I must quote Linus Torvalds again: "Nobody should start to undertake a large project. You start with a small _trivial_ project, and you should never expect it to get large. If you do, you'll just overdesign and generally think it is more important than it likely is at that stage. Or worse, you might be scared away by the sheer size of the work you envision. So start small, and think about the det [15:37] <TFK> ails. Don't think about some big picture and fancy design. If it doesn't solve some fairly immediate need, it's almost certainly over-designed. And don't expect people to jump in and help you. That's not how these things work. You need to get something half-way _useful_ first, and then others will say "hey, that _almost_ works for me", and they'll get involved in the project. " [15:38] <TFK> Ouch, flood, sorry o.o;; [15:38] <TFK> But since we're already having visions of grandeur, perhaps that's not too applicable ;-) [15:39] <zratchet> yeah [15:39] <zratchet> well [15:39] <zratchet> that's really what I want to do [15:39] <zratchet> create modules [15:39] <zratchet> which can be plugged into a big architecture [15:39] <zratchet> but don't necessarily have to be [15:39] <zratchet> so we can have say [15:39] <zratchet> the flying game [15:39] <zratchet> and the racing [15:39] <zratchet> and the snowball fight [15:39] <zratchet> and we can add in these other ideas [15:40] <zratchet> and have people contribute [15:40] <zratchet> and [15:40] <zratchet> who knows [15:40] <zratchet> once it gets going [15:40] <zratchet> have a payfor server and make some money maybe ;) [15:40] <zratchet> and/or get donations [15:41] <TFK> Well that's my point! Who *does* know? All I'm saying is that you should give thought to the definition of the game/ [15:41] <zratchet> yes [15:41] <zratchet> well [15:41] <zratchet> I think the modular approach is good [15:41] <TFK> "Don't bite more than you can chew" is a good proverb :-) [15:41] <zratchet> that way, we can have a framework and build new sections of avatarctica as we can [15:42] <zratchet> these are just ideas [15:42] <TFK> An MMORPG of sorts? [15:42] <zratchet> modules that could be created at some point [15:42] <zratchet> yeah... [15:42] <zratchet> with some RTS and FPS [15:42] <zratchet> I'd say there is quite a bit of RTS [15:42] <zratchet> what do you consider RTS elements [15:42] <zratchet> don't you think resource collecting and building are? [15:42] <zratchet> (like what I already talked about) [15:43] <TFK> Yes, but again, to what end? In games, those resources have a well-defined goal - help you raise armies and defeat the baddies. [15:43] <zratchet> well [15:43] <zratchet> think of each team as being a penguin colony I guess [15:44] <TFK> The good RTSs obviously featuring stuff like advanced tactics and so far. [15:44] <zratchet> so they have to compete for food and other resources [15:44] <zratchet> ;) [15:44] <zratchet> and of course new teams will be made as new people come in [15:44] <zratchet> and new areas too [15:44] <zratchet> but yes I am working on some tactics, units, etc... [15:44] <Terrasque> and zratchet is building castles in the sky again.. :-p [15:44] <zratchet> though units in this case will mean avatar abilities/training and wildlife [15:45] <TFK> Only the player won't care about any of it unless it serves some goal. [15:45] <zratchet> well [15:45] <TFK> I'm not asking for a complete design spec *right now* ;-) [15:45] <zratchet> I guess the goal will probably be ranking (i.e. biggest or most active or able to win most penguin colony) [15:46] <zratchet> but I do see having a "hatching ground" area where new players can learn and get recruited or form teams... [15:46] <zratchet> yes [15:46] <zratchet> I'm working on design specs [15:46] <TFK> I'm just saying that you should think about it. Have a concrete vision of what you want the game to be, and put it down on paper. Not now. But sometime in the near future :-) [15:46] <zratchet> yes [15:46] <zratchet> well [15:47] <zratchet> I have quite a bit on paper [15:47] <zratchet> just want to get this release done first... [15:47] <zratchet> and I'd appreciate input in design too [15:47] <zratchet> I kind of like the way supertux has the "bonus islands" [15:47] <zratchet> avatarctica could be kind of a bunch of different areas you know, contributed by different people [15:48] <zratchet> and having zones for different gameplay [15:48] <zratchet> all using the basic RTS/RPG/FPS/MMO framework that we set up [15:48] <TFK> Which is what? The same arcade/platform style gamplay? [15:48] <zratchet> no [15:48] <Terrasque> supertux? SMB clone [15:48] <zratchet> the worldmap stuff is just a good idea [15:48] <zratchet> I mean [15:48] <zratchet> the way they have people contribute new islands [15:49] <TFK> Terrasque, precisely. It knows what it wants to be. [15:49] <zratchet> in our game, each island could be a different gamezone [15:49] <zratchet> ok [15:49] <zratchet> boiling down to a single sentence [15:49] <zratchet> or freezing down in this case hehe [15:49] <TFK> Single sentences are awfully ambiguous :-( [15:49] <zratchet> erg [15:49] <zratchet> yes its too hard [15:50] <zratchet> hehe [15:50] <zratchet> well [15:50] <zratchet> I do have a basic framework of things that should be doable *everywhere* in the game [15:50] <zratchet> i.e. collecting resources (food, wood, snow, etc) [15:50] <zratchet> building things (snow forts, by rolling snowballz together) [15:50] <TFK> For the fith time now, to what end? ;-) [15:51] <zratchet> for the furtherance of the team, and to have a high ranking for your team/colony [15:51] <zratchet> yes there would be skirmishes or whatever between teams [15:52] <zratchet> etc [15:52] <zratchet> whatever you have to do to further your colony [15:52] <zratchet> its like RTS [15:52] <TFK> That "whatever" gives the feeling that it is a kind of second-class citizen. [15:52] <zratchet> but with teams instead of one person controlling... [15:52] <TFK> In an RTS, the main point is battle. Fighting. Clash of big and small armies. [15:52] <zratchet> yes [15:52] <zratchet> well [15:52] <Terrasque> TFK: zratchet have a tendency to aim very high, if you haven't noticed ;-) [15:52] <TFK> There are RTSs with not resource management whatsoever, in fact. [15:53] <zratchet> you'll certainly have this if you have lots of colonies squabbling over resources [15:53] <TFK> (Whether those suck or not I will leave to the reader to decide ;-) [15:53] <zratchet> yeah [15:53] <TFK> Only if they *care* about resources. [15:53] <zratchet> resource management may be somewhat like this: [15:53] <TFK> In an RTS players do because if they don't, the enemy will finish them off quickly enough. [15:54] <zratchet> each colony member will probably have their own inventory [15:54] <zratchet> (as in a RPG) [15:54] <zratchet> and there will be the colony pool [15:54] <zratchet> that's like what you have in an RTS [15:54] <zratchet> I mean, consider that that is what real army units have... [15:54] <zratchet> ;) [15:54] <zratchet> each unit *should* have its own resource pool [15:55] <zratchet> I know, thats probably a new concept [15:55] <TFK> Sure. [15:55] <zratchet> but new concepts are good... [15:55] <Terrasque> zratchet: so, whats this game going to be? [15:55] <TFK> I must contest that statement. [15:55] <zratchet> game publishers *look for at least a little* innovation [15:55] <TFK> New ideas are good to a certain end. [15:56] <zratchet> OK: Genre is seamless offline-AI/online MMO team-based rts with rpg and fps features [15:56] <zratchet> enough buzzwords? hehe [15:56] <TFK> Wow, progress :-D [15:56] <TFK> How will you get seamless AI is a bit beyond me, though. [15:57] <zratchet> it just takes time to get the idea into a readable form hehe [15:57] <zratchet> well what I don't see [15:57] <Terrasque> TFK: simple. We just steal the software from the Terminator dude [15:57] <zratchet> is why don't they have RTS's record your games [15:57] <TFK> Terrasque, lol... good luck on that xD [15:57] <zratchet> so you could play against yourself [15:57] <zratchet> that could be a very good way for AI to learn [15:57] <TFK> Play against yourself? o_O [15:58] <zratchet> yes [15:58] <zratchet> have it so it records a game [15:58] <zratchet> and of course makes changes thru an AI system [15:58] <Terrasque> play with yourself? [15:58] <TFK> I never did like playing chess against myself... [15:58] <zratchet> that's not exactly what I'm saying [15:58] <Terrasque> TFK: lemme guess. you always lost :-p [15:58] <zratchet> I'm saying the AI would record your games to use as an example for it [15:58] <zratchet> a learning AI [15:59] <Terrasque> zratchet: any idea how hard that is? [15:59] <zratchet> I've talked to the stratagus people about it some [15:59] <TFK> Terrasque, lol... actually, no. It was just boring as hell. Never liked playing chess against the computer, too (although I *did* always lose to the damn computer >_<) [15:59] <zratchet> they say it would go out of sync [15:59] <zratchet> :p [15:59] <zratchet> yes, I know it would be hard [15:59] <zratchet> but [15:59] <zratchet> I don't quite see [15:59] <Terrasque> learning AI is a fucking big stand-alone project. [15:59] <TFK> Did you play Black and White? [15:59] <zratchet> no, but heard of it [15:59] <zratchet> yes, that's somewhat of an inspiration [15:59] <zratchet> :) [16:00] <TFK> *sigh* [16:00] <zratchet> iCraft... [16:00] <TFK> Well anyway, I'll be away for 20 mins watching Samurai Champloo #21 [16:00] <zratchet> ok [16:00] <zratchet> well [16:00] <TFK> And to sum up my bitchin', I'll just say: think about it :-) [16:00] <zratchet> yes [16:00] <zratchet> I know [16:00] <zratchet> at least I got the genre down :) [16:00] <zratchet> and [16:00] <Terrasque> TFK: OOH OH! [16:00] <Terrasque> where do I get that one? [16:01] <Terrasque> champloo? [16:01] <zratchet> hehe [16:01] <TFK> er? [16:01] <Terrasque> been looking for them [16:01] <TFK> For what? o_O [16:01] <zratchet> is it an anime? [16:01] <Terrasque> samurai champloo [16:01] * zratchet likes .hack ... [16:01] <TFK> Yeah, a new series. [16:01] <TFK> I've watch ~10 episodes of .hack//SIGN [16:01] * Terrasque got over 200 gb of anime [16:02] <TFK> Now that's one crazy MMORPG right there xD [16:02] <TFK> Terrasque, O_O [16:02] <zratchet> hehe [16:02] <zratchet> ;) [16:02] <Terrasque> .hack//SIGN is cool [16:02] <Terrasque> especially the music [16:02] <zratchet> anyway [16:02] <zratchet> about the AI thing I just had one other thing [16:02] <zratchet> er [16:02] <zratchet> 2 [16:02] <TFK> I found the musing annoying and somewhat repetitive :-/ [16:02] <zratchet> they already have replay in some games [16:02] <zratchet> RTS [16:03] <Terrasque> TFK: seen scrapped princess(i think it was)? [16:03] <zratchet> why can't the AI analyze the replay? [16:03] <zratchet> and/or use it as a basis for its personality? [16:03] <TFK> zratchet, define "analyze" [16:03] <Terrasque> zratchet: because a computer can't think [16:03] <zratchet> yeah [16:03] <zratchet> but [16:03] <TFK> Define "personality" ;-) [16:03] <Terrasque> 298G Anime/ [16:03] <zratchet> personality files... AoE2 thing... [16:03] <zratchet> hehe [16:03] <Terrasque> wee \o/ [16:03] <TFK> Terrasque, "The question of whether computers can think is as relevant as the question of wheter submarines can swim." -- Edsger Dijkstra [16:04] <Terrasque> zratchet: take a spin around the wikipedia, read up about machine learning and AI [16:04] <zratchet> analyze: To examine methodically by separating into parts and studying their interrelations. [16:04] <TFK> zratchet, didn't play AoE2, but what do you mean by "personality files"? [16:04] <Terrasque> TFK: true, soo true [16:04] <zratchet> Terrasque: yeah [16:04] <zratchet> TFK: you can read about them on AoE2 fansites [16:04] <d1223m> we can prob use this for bitmapped fonts http://www.linux-games.com/sfont/ [16:04] <zratchet> basically [16:04] <TFK> What do they do? [16:04] * d1223m is back [16:05] <Terrasque> zratchet: the problem is. The computer can't think. You need to tell it *how* to think [16:05] <zratchet> ok [16:05] <zratchet> Terrasque: yes I know [16:05] <TFK> zratchet, what do you mean "examine methodically"? It is as vague as "analyze". How will it "separate" it by parts? How will it "study interrelations"? [16:05] <zratchet> personality: # The quality or condition of being a person. [16:05] <zratchet> # The totality of qualities and traits, as of character or behavior, that are peculiar to a specific person. [16:06] <zratchet> TFK: yes... I know [16:06] <zratchet> well [16:06] <zratchet> basically my thought was [16:06] <Terrasque> "study interrelations" - if you get a COMPUTER to do that.... You're a millionaire. [16:06] <zratchet> couldn't an AI use a replay file [16:06] <TFK> All these definitions are still ambiguous. [16:06] <zratchet> and then just use standard AI if the replay actions don't work out? [16:06] <zratchet> have a percentage win/lose thing [16:06] <TFK> I do not see how an AI could use a replay file. [16:07] <zratchet> so it can switch back and forth [16:07] <zratchet> why not? [16:07] <zratchet> its just game data... [16:07] <Terrasque> lol [16:07] <zratchet> why can't it use that as a player? [16:07] <TFK> zratchet, it is very complex game data. [16:07] <zratchet> yes [16:07] <zratchet> I know [16:07] <zratchet> but if its already recorded [16:07] <TFK> You are asking what Kurzweil is asking - encode personality into a computer. [16:07] <zratchet> why can't it be put back in [16:07] <zratchet> freeciv kind of does that... [16:07] <TFK> That doesn't matter. Take a video of a person - no computer can analyze it today. [16:07] <zratchet> true [16:07] <zratchet> but [16:08] <zratchet> in freeciv [16:08] <zratchet> you can go back to an old saved game [16:08] <TFK> Lots of AIs have learning in them - Black and White allows you to train your own "beast", the beast being guided by a neural network. [16:08] <zratchet> what about the way freeciv allows AI toggling [16:08] <TFK> I really have to see how they improved that in B&W2. [16:08] <zratchet> it can take over from a player [16:08] <zratchet> and give back control [16:08] <TFK> How does it allow AI toggling? [16:08] <zratchet> if it can do that [16:08] <TFK> OK, so? How does that "analyze" personality? [16:09] <zratchet> why couldn't it do it with prerecorded data that a player already did? [16:09] <zratchet> TFK: I'm not sure, I've wondered that myself [16:09] <TFK> Just because it takes control of doesn't mean it'll play anything like that player. [16:09] <zratchet> true... [16:09] <zratchet> but if it could record the player [16:09] <Terrasque> TFK: when a player pings off, the ai takes over, plays normal ai way, and fucks all of your strategies in 1 round. Pretty impressive, actually [16:09] <TFK> I'm not aware of any special traits of the FreeCiv AI, although I can't rule it out, of course. [16:09] <TFK> zratchet, because that data is very, very complex [16:09] <zratchet> yes [16:10] <zratchet> I know [16:10] <zratchet> its just something *I personally* am interseted in [16:10] <zratchet> and I am studying things [16:10] <TFK> Sure, n/p. [16:10] <zratchet> like emergence... [16:10] <zratchet> you know about emergent properties? [16:10] <TFK> If you are studying things, you must be aware of current progress. [16:10] <zratchet> yes [16:10] <zratchet> I know [16:10] <Terrasque> the closest thing I can think of is simple machine learning where it just makes a score on singular events. Like 20 of unit X doing Y damage, player Z lost most. 30 units, more effective, and so on. [16:10] <zratchet> well [16:10] <TFK> In some systems, yes. [16:10] <zratchet> yeah [16:11] <TFK> Again, learning AI is possible to do, to some extent. But what you're asking for is hard. [16:11] <zratchet> if they can train things to use emergent properties... [16:11] <zratchet> they should be able to do this... [16:11] <zratchet> yes I know, its a challenge [16:11] <Terrasque> as I said, a fucking big project itself. [16:11] <zratchet> but... [16:11] <zratchet> well [16:11] <zratchet> I am in an AI project [16:11] <zratchet> that needs members [16:11] <TFK> I'm guessing you could start by extracting some patterns from the gameplay, and then weigh the AI accordingly. [16:11] <zratchet> yeah [16:11] <zratchet> thats what I was thinking [16:12] <Terrasque> It would probably be 10x the work doing a real AI than the whole rest of the game [16:12] <zratchet> if it records a players game [16:12] <TFK> It's not what you were suggesting though. [16:12] <zratchet> look [16:12] <zratchet> if it records a players game [16:12] <zratchet> then splits it into parts [16:12] <zratchet> and there must be a way to split it intelligently [16:12] <TFK> Why? [16:12] <Terrasque> BING [16:12] <zratchet> because most players do rushes and stuff [16:12] <Terrasque> "intelligently" [16:12] <zratchet> erg I know [16:12] <zratchet> I just mean [16:12] <TFK> You mean split it by certain patterns? [16:12] <Terrasque> you're over your head already [16:12] <zratchet> yeah [16:13] <zratchet> split it by how many units the player has or something [16:13] <TFK> So what kind of information are you looking forward to extracting? [16:13] <zratchet> generally I send in a bunch of units, the number gets lowered by the enemy [16:13] <zratchet> you know [16:13] <zratchet> so when its low [16:13] <zratchet> it stops recording [16:13] <zratchet> and [16:13] <zratchet> these little clips [16:14] <zratchet> could be used as things it could choose to do [16:14] <zratchet> I mean [16:14] <zratchet> the AI already has to choose different actions [16:14] <zratchet> right [16:14] <zratchet> this would just [16:14] <zratchet> enhance its vocabulary [16:14] <zratchet> i guess is the best way to put it [16:14] <TFK> Some information I think may be possible to extract from A LOT of games: "rate of expansion", "investment in army as opposed to investment in buildings", "lots of cheap units vs. costly specialists", stuff like that. [16:14] <zratchet> yeah [16:14] <zratchet> that stuff [16:14] <TFK> But these things I can quanitify. [16:14] <zratchet> personalities... basically [16:14] <zratchet> people have different strategies and they show up [16:15] <zratchet> ... [16:15] <TFK> Unfortunatelly, that does not encode all there is to it. [16:15] <zratchet> d1223m: thanks for the link, bookmarked it [16:15] <Terrasque> zratchet: but there isn't ONE best way to do those basic things [16:15] <zratchet> I know [16:15] <zratchet> well [16:15] <TFK> Analyzing attacking patterns is extremely difficult, for example. [16:15] <zratchet> I'm already in an AI project [16:15] <zratchet> but [16:15] <TFK> zratchet, which project is that? [16:15] <zratchet> we've had trouble finding members [16:15] <zratchet> icraft [16:15] <Terrasque> like one person can totally own with a few specialists, by good unit control and tactics. [16:15] <zratchet> its already got some code [16:16] <zratchet> its in C++ though [16:16] <zratchet> so kind of hard to wrap to python... [16:16] <zratchet> swig or whatever [16:16] <zratchet> I guess [16:16] <zratchet> anyway [16:16] <zratchet> this would all be in the future anyway [16:16] <zratchet> but AI will be important [16:16] <zratchet> cause AI is needed in online mode some too at least for creatures if not avatar bots [16:17] <zratchet> anyway [16:17] <zratchet> check out icraft, it may be useful [16:17] <zratchet> maybe be able to advance it too :) [16:17] <zratchet> sorry... I know I'm over my head... [16:17] <zratchet> but [16:18] <zratchet> you have good ideas and want to do them... [16:18] <Terrasque> AI in games is usually just a list of actions, depending on a list of events and values. [16:18] <zratchet> I know it could take *a long time* [16:18] <zratchet> but it would be fun [16:18] <zratchet> wouldn't it [16:18] <zratchet> ? [16:18] <Terrasque> it would be fun living on the moon too, I think.. :-p [16:18] <zratchet> hehe [16:18] <TFK> Sounds like an interesting project. [16:18] <zratchet> well [16:18] <TFK> But this is difficult to do it generically [16:18] <zratchet> TFK: don't go off on that too much... [16:19] * TFK shrugs [16:19] <zratchet> TFK: want you to code for the current stuff... ;) [16:19] <zratchet> hehe [16:19] <TFK> Problems, to be solved, need to be well defined. [16:19] <zratchet> TFK: yes [16:19] <zratchet> I know [16:19] <Terrasque> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Machine_learning [16:19] <zratchet> I'll work on defining stuff [16:19] <TFK> If they are not well defined, they will not be solved, because one doesn't know *what* to solve! [16:19] <zratchet> but you have to ask questions !!! :) [16:19] <TFK> Good :-) [16:19] <zratchet> and I do too ;) [16:19] <zratchet> I like this... [16:19] <TFK> I am, as you can see ;-) [16:19] <zratchet> yes [16:19] <zratchet> this will be posted to the list... [16:19] <TFK> Seriously though, I'm off to watch that episode. [16:19] <zratchet> good stuff [16:19] <zratchet> ok [16:19] <Terrasque> machine learning could maybe be possible.. [16:20] <zratchet> yes [16:20] <zratchet> <Terrasque> AI in games is usually just a list of actions, depending on a list of events and values. [16:20] <zratchet> if its a list of actions, couldn't some of those actions be clips of recorded player action? [16:20] <zratchet> that's what I was tyring to say [16:21] <Terrasque> that's not the problem [16:21] <Terrasque> the problem is *when* to use it [16:21] <zratchet> yeah... [16:21] <zratchet> well [16:21] <zratchet> that could be interesting [16:21] <zratchet> but [16:21] <zratchet> we have to get the code we're doing right now done first [16:21] <Terrasque> if it is going to use it in a smart way, it need to make rules for when to use it, and when not to [16:21] <zratchet> good to put in our wiki for planning though [16:21] <zratchet> yep I completely agree with that :) [16:22] <Terrasque> and then you're back to "real ai" and machine learning and that stuff [16:22] <zratchet> a lot of this chat will be going in the wiki [16:22] <zratchet> yep... [16:22] <zratchet> icraft... ;) [16:22] <Terrasque> hehehe [16:22] <zratchet> and maybe some picking in the stratagus and freeciv ai's too... [16:23] <Terrasque> freeciv's "ai" is of the list type [16:23] <Terrasque> "if this and this and this, do that" [16:23] <Terrasque> it can look smart, but that's because a smart human made the lists.. [16:24] <Terrasque> generally, a computer can't just find out new ways to do stuff [16:25] <Terrasque> you can program some random element into it that can generate new stuff, but you'll then need code to *evaluate* the results of that stuff [16:25] <Terrasque> and code to stop it from jumping of a high cliff ;-) [16:27] <zratchet> yes [16:27] <zratchet> well [16:27] <zratchet> AI and stuff is interesting to me... [16:27] <zratchet> as long as its in an easy language... like python or lua... [16:27] <Terrasque> hehe [16:27] <zratchet> python better... [16:27] <zratchet> I've been lurking in #freeciv some lately [16:27] --- #freeciv :You can't join that many channels [16:28] <zratchet> I like dev channels, you can learn a lot :) [16:30] <zratchet> anyway, I'm going to post this chat, and do some emails... [16:30] <zratchet> so [16:30] --- Does this mean you're really back? [16:30] --- We'll miss you [16:34] <zratchet> bbiab [16:35] <zratchet> d1223m: can you give me a link to the sdl 3d sound stuff too? [16:36] <zratchet> or have you already contacted bob frazier about it? [16:36] <d1223m> plz use nicks or i have no idea who your talking about [16:36] <zratchet> shbrngdo [16:36] <zratchet> sry [16:36] <d1223m> you can get the source from blender.org in the forums [16:36] <zratchet> ok... [16:36] <zratchet> I'll mail him about it --- From Ratchet (Mikey Lubker) Lead Coordinator of the IGDA Indie SIG: http://igda.org/indie Check out my projects: http://sf.net/users/ratchet Are YOU a Good Person? Go here: http://www.wayofthemaster.com/wotm_flash.html |