From: badon <fas...@gm...> - 2011-07-23 19:31:54
|
Last year the documentation of Semantic Mediawiki was not good enough for me to understand how to get started on my project. I asked about paid support. Ever since then, it's hard to find someone who will help me with a question about SMW unless I pay them an income equivalent to almost $1/4 million per year. Seriously, I'm not making this up. While working on my SMW project, I spend most of my time isolating bugs and writing up detailed bug reports. The response to the work I put into my bug reports is sometimes something like: "We won't fix it unless you pay us". The greed is suffocating every interaction I have with the SMW developers. Beware: Greed changes polite, generous, and helpful people. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goose_That_Laid_the_Golden_Eggs -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32122897.html Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: Jeroen De D. <jer...@gm...> - 2011-07-23 20:38:30
|
Hey, It's quite regrettable you got this kind of view. Let me share my view on the situation, as an SMW developer :) > The greed is suffocating every interaction I have with the SMW developers. You had many interactions with me, so are accusing me of being greedy. Have a look at all the time I spend answering your questions and fixing bugs you reported. That was time I donated to the SMW project and community. Also have a look at all the improvements, additions and fixed I made to SMW, SRF and other SMW extensions in my free time. At some point I do need some income though, does this make me greedy? Most other developers are in similar situations, and at least the ones I know are definitely not making your claimed quarter million dollars a year. Now from this perspective, how do you think you are coming over? Deaning new features and then calling devs greedy because they have no extra free time they can put on it? As one of the Wikipedia motto's goes: "always assume good faith" :) Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw http://www.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. -- |
From: badon <fas...@gm...> - 2011-07-23 21:06:47
|
I haven't named anyone specifically, and I won't either because no matter who we're talking about, they can always improve as soon as this is brought to their attention. People often don't realize how they're "coming over", as you mentioned. This is just an FYI that I'm a real person too, and I don't like feeling like a target for exploitation any more than you do. Jeroen De Dauw-2 wrote: > > Hey, > > It's quite regrettable you got this kind of view. Let me share my view on > the situation, as an SMW developer :) > >> The greed is suffocating every interaction I have with the SMW >> developers. > > You had many interactions with me, so are accusing me of being greedy. > Have > a look at all the time I spend answering your questions and fixing bugs > you > reported. That was time I donated to the SMW project and community. Also > have a look at all the improvements, additions and fixed I made to SMW, > SRF > and other SMW extensions in my free time. At some point I do need some > income though, does this make me greedy? Most other developers are in > similar situations, and at least the ones I know are definitely not making > your claimed quarter million dollars a year. > > Now from this perspective, how do you think you are coming over? Deaning > new > features and then calling devs greedy because they have no extra free time > they can put on it? > > As one of the Wikipedia motto's goes: "always assume good faith" :) > > Cheers > > -- > Jeroen De Dauw > http://www.bn2vs.com > Don't panic. Don't be evil. > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Storage Efficiency Calculator > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > the right place. Try It Now! > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32123334.html Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: Dan B. <dan...@gm...> - 2011-07-23 21:55:39
|
Personally I think the documentation isn't bad, but I always try to take the time to improve it when I can. It's good that you take time to log bugs, but you have to appreciate, if its broken, somebody has to fix it, and nobody's time is 'free'. Every project has it's own culture, and for sure some are better than others, but there is little mileage in just complaining. It's best to work out how to try to improve it for the best. On 23 July 2011 20:16, badon <fas...@gm...> wrote: > > Last year the documentation of Semantic Mediawiki was not good enough for me > to understand how to get started on my project. I asked about paid support. > Ever since then, it's hard to find someone who will help me with a question > about SMW unless I pay them an income equivalent to almost $1/4 million per > year. Seriously, I'm not making this up. > > While working on my SMW project, I spend most of my time isolating bugs and > writing up detailed bug reports. The response to the work I put into my bug > reports is sometimes something like: "We won't fix it unless you pay us". > The greed is suffocating every interaction I have with the SMW developers. > > Beware: > > Greed changes polite, generous, and helpful people. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goose_That_Laid_the_Golden_Eggs > > > -- > View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32122897.html > Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Storage Efficiency Calculator > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > the right place. Try It Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > |
From: badon <fas...@gm...> - 2011-07-23 22:07:08
|
The documentation is much better now. There's still ways to improve it, but it's good enough for me to get going. I'd like to add more introductory material to it once I've collected enough information to write that up. Dan Bolser-3 wrote: > > Personally I think the documentation isn't bad, but I always try to > take the time to improve it when I can. > > It's good that you take time to log bugs, but you have to appreciate, > if its broken, somebody has to fix it, and nobody's time is 'free'. > > Every project has it's own culture, and for sure some are better than > others, but there is little mileage in just complaining. It's best to > work out how to try to improve it for the best. > > > On 23 July 2011 20:16, badon <fas...@gm...> wrote: >> >> Last year the documentation of Semantic Mediawiki was not good enough for >> me >> to understand how to get started on my project. I asked about paid >> support. >> Ever since then, it's hard to find someone who will help me with a >> question >> about SMW unless I pay them an income equivalent to almost $1/4 million >> per >> year. Seriously, I'm not making this up. >> >> While working on my SMW project, I spend most of my time isolating bugs >> and >> writing up detailed bug reports. The response to the work I put into my >> bug >> reports is sometimes something like: "We won't fix it unless you pay us". >> The greed is suffocating every interaction I have with the SMW >> developers. >> >> Beware: >> >> Greed changes polite, generous, and helpful people. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goose_That_Laid_the_Golden_Eggs >> >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32122897.html >> Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Storage Efficiency Calculator >> This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that >> has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization >> engage- >> ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to >> the right place. Try It Now! >> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Semediawiki-user mailing list >> Sem...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Storage Efficiency Calculator > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > the right place. Try It Now! > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32123577.html Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: James H. K. <jam...@gm...> - 2011-07-24 13:25:50
|
Dear fastgoldfish. This project lives of the contribution from developers, testers, and from users in how to improve this project overall. Surely, starting of with SMW is not as easy as everybody things because you have to understand the concept behind it. Understand how properties can actually add meaningful information that later someone/something can interpret will take sometime, in our case, it took us three moths to figure out which combination of properties are most appropriated that makes it worthwhile to continue, but not because the community couldn't help. In certain circumstances SMW might not be a viable option but as long as someone is trying to help either on the mailing list or Mediawiki talk page their is no reason to corner people for not communicating or even alienating through an email. SMW is a community with a general aim in mind (making information more accessible) , people can choose to participate and either silently accept the given roadmap or actively try to alter its course by making contributions. How to help We are just using the system to best of our abilities, in a case we find a bug we try to notify the people who might can fixed it. If someone can't fixed it we hope that the community will solve this problem to a later point. We found that people are listing to requests as long as you make a good case of it. You find the documentation is not appropriate for beginners, do something to change it. If you think writing is not your strength, make a youtube video to help others to understand how this project/software works. Community is a symbiotic relationship between those who developing it and those who using it. Simply put, it is give and take. PS.: Having read your email makes us wonder what was your initial motive, just to alienate the community, to spark some attention or was it a genuine attempt to rattle the cage, in either case don't expect others to switch on the light, do something to help others and others will try to help you. Accusations of any kind (founded or unfounded) does not inspire willingness to help, courtesy of its members is what it makes it a productive community. Cheers, MWJames |
From: Christopher W. <gws...@gm...> - 2011-07-23 22:38:53
|
To chime in a little bit on this, I think part of the problem is that there's a split in expectations (and always has been) between Developers and Admins. Most people who administer systems are closer to "Power Users" than they are to "Developers" and they see thing more from a User's perspective than a Developer's perspective. Developers *hate* writing documentation, as they generally see it as a waste of time ("figure it out from the code" or "it's obvious to *me* how it works"). There is also the issue of many (not all) developers lacking the skills and/or mindset to effectively communicate in plain language how to use the product. This is not intended as a knock on Developers, just an observation. Writing code takes a mind that works differently than someone who writes magazine articles, novels, or other things targeted at the average person. Admins are closer to the Users, and are the people that the Users complain to when something doesn't work they way they expect it to. Admins also have varying levels of programming knowledge and experience. Many are people who wound up in their role simply by virtue of being the most knowledgeable user. When the Users ask "how do I do X?" or "Why doesn't Y work?", the Admins need a place to go to find the answer, but frequently do not have the experience (or time) to dig through the code to find it. Admins are also frequently not comfortable running "bleeding edge" software. They (or their employers) want something that has been tested, and is known to work. Constantly updating from SVN to the absolute newest version may be an option for a random person running their own personal site, but it is generally not an option in most environments with an organized IT management infrastructure. Some sort of a QA filter is usually required between the Developer saying "It's done" and the software actually being released for general use. Maybe the solution is to have people volunteer to bridge the gap: People with enough programming experience to understand the code, document functions and usage, understand limitations/bugs and help with workarounds- but who have the written communications skills to translate those things into organized plain language. This would likely have two effects: 1) Reducing the amount of "pestering" that the Developers get 2) Providing better satisfaction among the folks who use the software, making people more willing to use it. I'm not saying that anybody should be expected to give up their time for free. Developers should be compensated for the time they spend writing software. Getting mad because they expect to be paid for a specific task is like getting mad at the mechanic who wants to be paid for fixing a car. Even if the mechanic designed and built the car for free, you can't expect them to change the oil or adjust the ignition timing for free every time you want it done. Just some thoughts, and I apologize for rambling, but I figure at least part of the anger/irritation may be alleviated if the folks involved at least have some perspective as to where the people on the other side are coming from. -Chris Wilson On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Dan Bolser <dan...@gm...> wrote: > Personally I think the documentation isn't bad, but I always try to > take the time to improve it when I can. > > It's good that you take time to log bugs, but you have to appreciate, > if its broken, somebody has to fix it, and nobody's time is 'free'. > > Every project has it's own culture, and for sure some are better than > others, but there is little mileage in just complaining. It's best to > work out how to try to improve it for the best. > > > On 23 July 2011 20:16, badon <fas...@gm...> wrote: > > > > Last year the documentation of Semantic Mediawiki was not good enough for > me > > to understand how to get started on my project. I asked about paid > support. > > Ever since then, it's hard to find someone who will help me with a > question > > about SMW unless I pay them an income equivalent to almost $1/4 million > per > > year. Seriously, I'm not making this up. > > > > While working on my SMW project, I spend most of my time isolating bugs > and > > writing up detailed bug reports. The response to the work I put into my > bug > > reports is sometimes something like: "We won't fix it unless you pay us". > > The greed is suffocating every interaction I have with the SMW > developers. > > > > Beware: > > > > Greed changes polite, generous, and helpful people. > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goose_That_Laid_the_Golden_Eggs > > > > > > -- > > View this message in context: > http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32122897.html > > Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Storage Efficiency Calculator > > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization > engage- > > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > > the right place. Try It Now! > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Semediawiki-user mailing list > > Sem...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Storage Efficiency Calculator > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > the right place. Try It Now! > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > |
From: Scott R. <sr...@av...> - 2011-07-23 23:06:09
|
I hear that you feel taken advantage of, that you have been identified as someone who can pay for support and therefore can only get support by paying for it and that you have contributed to the project by isolating bugs, producing test cases. etc. but that the value to the project of these contributions are not recognized. I am an SMW user but mostly a lurker on this mailing list. I have not seen what you are reporting but I can see how such a perception might develop. The open source process varies from project to project but as I understand it, the developers get to decide priorities based on their interests, on the level of effort required, on the level of demand among the whole community of users, and on what particular users are willing to pay for. I suspect that if enough other users wanted the features and bug fixes you wanted then there would not be a need for you to pay to get them done. I suspect that your bugs were not being reported by other users so they were not high priority. If my understanding of the open source process is accurate, there would be a few ways to raise the priority of the bugs and features your wanted addressed: 1) get a developer interested in working on them, 2) get other users to request they be fixed, or 3) pay for the work. I think your efforts in reporting bugs probably have been a help with #1 (getting a developer interested in working on the bug) but cultivating a relationship with developers requires people skills not just tech skills. For most of us, #2, user-demand, is the critical factor. If our bugs are not a problem for many other users then we cannot expect our needs to take precedence over what the majority of users need. So if our bugs are mostly bugging us and we can't get a developer personally interested in fixing them, we're pretty much left with #3, paying to have them done. In my view that is how the open source process works. We don't need to bring in greed to explain it. Scott On 7/23/2011 3:16 PM, badon wrote: > Last year the documentation of Semantic Mediawiki was not good enough for me > to understand how to get started on my project. I asked about paid support. > Ever since then, it's hard to find someone who will help me with a question > about SMW unless I pay them an income equivalent to almost $1/4 million per > year. Seriously, I'm not making this up. > > While working on my SMW project, I spend most of my time isolating bugs and > writing up detailed bug reports. The response to the work I put into my bug > reports is sometimes something like: "We won't fix it unless you pay us". > The greed is suffocating every interaction I have with the SMW developers. > > Beware: > > Greed changes polite, generous, and helpful people. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goose_That_Laid_the_Golden_Eggs > > |
From: badon <fas...@gm...> - 2011-07-23 23:34:57
|
I should clarify that I'm not a person who can pay for support - this is a hobby for me and I'm looking for ways to aid or support the project if I can. The dedication of the developers is inspiring. After reading this: http://www.wikipatterns.com/display/wikipatterns/90-9-1+Theory I decided to be one of the 9's, or even one of the 1's if I can. I would just "go away" at the developer's urging. Yes, that's really what I was told last time I contacted a developer about an idea I had for a way I could contribute (I couldn't get enough information from him to come up with something that might work). I'm sure he was angry that I didn't immediately shove $100+ per hour in his face. That's how greed kills inspired enthusiasm. Also, most of my bug reports don't actually affect what I'm doing. Even when they do, I can easily work around most of them. They're just bugs I've found, or ideas for improvement, that I'm sure other people come up with too, but either don't understand, or don't bother to document well enough for a developer to focus on it. Scott Reed-3 wrote: > > I hear that you feel taken advantage of, that you have been identified > as someone who can pay for support and therefore can only get support by > paying for it and that you have contributed to the project by isolating > bugs, producing test cases. etc. but that the value to the project of > these contributions are not recognized. > > I am an SMW user but mostly a lurker on this mailing list. I have not > seen what you are reporting but I can see how such a perception might > develop. The open source process varies from project to project but as I > understand it, the developers get to decide priorities based on their > interests, on the level of effort required, on the level of demand among > the whole community of users, and on what particular users are willing > to pay for. I suspect that if enough other users wanted the features and > bug fixes you wanted then there would not be a need for you to pay to > get them done. I suspect that your bugs were not being reported by other > users so they were not high priority. > > If my understanding of the open source process is accurate, there would > be a few ways to raise the priority of the bugs and features your wanted > addressed: 1) get a developer interested in working on them, 2) get > other users to request they be fixed, or 3) pay for the work. I think > your efforts in reporting bugs probably have been a help with #1 > (getting a developer interested in working on the bug) but cultivating a > relationship with developers requires people skills not just tech > skills. For most of us, #2, user-demand, is the critical factor. If our > bugs are not a problem for many other users then we cannot expect our > needs to take precedence over what the majority of users need. So if our > bugs are mostly bugging us and we can't get a developer personally > interested in fixing them, we're pretty much left with #3, paying to > have them done. In my view that is how the open source process works. We > don't need to bring in greed to explain it. > > Scott > > On 7/23/2011 3:16 PM, badon wrote: >> Last year the documentation of Semantic Mediawiki was not good enough for >> me >> to understand how to get started on my project. I asked about paid >> support. >> Ever since then, it's hard to find someone who will help me with a >> question >> about SMW unless I pay them an income equivalent to almost $1/4 million >> per >> year. Seriously, I'm not making this up. >> >> While working on my SMW project, I spend most of my time isolating bugs >> and >> writing up detailed bug reports. The response to the work I put into my >> bug >> reports is sometimes something like: "We won't fix it unless you pay us". >> The greed is suffocating every interaction I have with the SMW >> developers. >> >> Beware: >> >> Greed changes polite, generous, and helpful people. >> >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goose_That_Laid_the_Golden_Eggs >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Storage Efficiency Calculator > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > the right place. Try It Now! > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32123850.html Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: Van de B. <van...@gm...> - 2011-07-23 23:52:59
|
Hi Chris, I am rather new user, admin, and a very little bit of developer of Semantic MediaWiki, up to now I had reasonable support through this mail list, but I found that: 1. Semantic MediaWiki documenation is not too good. All that pages are probably good enough for "Tutorial" or "Getting Started", but they are rather bad for "Reference". It is hard to find the list of all parser functions, descriptions of all the parameters, all the allowed values, etc. (BTW, Semantic Forms suffers also.) 2. Semantic MediaWiki site is rather closed — after registration I did not have permissions to edit pages, so I had no chances to improve it. I fully agree that developers hate to write documentation (since I am a software developer at my full-time job). But Semantic MediaWiki community should utilize every chance to improve documents by letting people edit it. Semantic Mediawiki website should be more open (by allowing editing for all registered users) and somebody should look over changes (to roll back wrong edits, block vandals, etc). Regards, Van. On Sat, 2011-07-23 at 15:38 -0700, Christopher Wilson wrote: > To chime in a little bit on this, I think part of the problem is that > there's a split in expectations (and always has been) between Developers and > Admins. Most people who administer systems are closer to "Power Users" than > they are to "Developers" and they see thing more from a User's perspective > than a Developer's perspective. > > Developers *hate* writing documentation, as they generally see it as a waste > of time ("figure it out from the code" or "it's obvious to *me* how it > works"). There is also the issue of many (not all) developers lacking the > skills and/or mindset to effectively communicate in plain language how to > use the product. This is not intended as a knock on Developers, just an > observation. Writing code takes a mind that works differently than someone > who writes magazine articles, novels, or other things targeted at the > average person. > > Admins are closer to the Users, and are the people that the Users complain > to when something doesn't work they way they expect it to. Admins also have > varying levels of programming knowledge and experience. Many are people who > wound up in their role simply by virtue of being the most knowledgeable > user. When the Users ask "how do I do X?" or "Why doesn't Y work?", the > Admins need a place to go to find the answer, but frequently do not have the > experience (or time) to dig through the code to find it. > > Admins are also frequently not comfortable running "bleeding edge" software. > They (or their employers) want something that has been tested, and is known > to work. Constantly updating from SVN to the absolute newest version may be > an option for a random person running their own personal site, but it is > generally not an option in most environments with an organized IT management > infrastructure. Some sort of a QA filter is usually required between the > Developer saying "It's done" and the software actually being released for > general use. > > Maybe the solution is to have people volunteer to bridge the gap: People > with enough programming experience to understand the code, document > functions and usage, understand limitations/bugs and help with workarounds- > but who have the written communications skills to translate those things > into organized plain language. This would likely have two effects: > > 1) Reducing the amount of "pestering" that the Developers get > 2) Providing better satisfaction among the folks who use the software, > making people more willing to use it. > > I'm not saying that anybody should be expected to give up their time for > free. Developers should be compensated for the time they spend writing > software. Getting mad because they expect to be paid for a specific task is > like getting mad at the mechanic who wants to be paid for fixing a car. Even > if the mechanic designed and built the car for free, you can't expect them > to change the oil or adjust the ignition timing for free every time you want > it done. > > Just some thoughts, and I apologize for rambling, but I figure at least part > of the anger/irritation may be alleviated if the folks involved at least > have some perspective as to where the people on the other side are coming > from. > > -Chris Wilson > > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Dan Bolser <dan...@gm...> wrote: > > > Personally I think the documentation isn't bad, but I always try to > > take the time to improve it when I can. > > > > It's good that you take time to log bugs, but you have to appreciate, > > if its broken, somebody has to fix it, and nobody's time is 'free'. > > > > Every project has it's own culture, and for sure some are better than > > others, but there is little mileage in just complaining. It's best to > > work out how to try to improve it for the best. > > > > > > On 23 July 2011 20:16, badon <fas...@gm...> wrote: > > > > > > Last year the documentation of Semantic Mediawiki was not good enough for > > me > > > to understand how to get started on my project. I asked about paid > > support. > > > Ever since then, it's hard to find someone who will help me with a > > question > > > about SMW unless I pay them an income equivalent to almost $1/4 million > > per > > > year. Seriously, I'm not making this up. > > > > > > While working on my SMW project, I spend most of my time isolating bugs > > and > > > writing up detailed bug reports. The response to the work I put into my > > bug > > > reports is sometimes something like: "We won't fix it unless you pay us". > > > The greed is suffocating every interaction I have with the SMW > > developers. > > > > > > Beware: > > > > > > Greed changes polite, generous, and helpful people. > > > > > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goose_That_Laid_the_Golden_Eggs > > > > > > > > > -- > > > View this message in context: > > http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32122897.html > > > Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at > > Nabble.com. > > > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > > Storage Efficiency Calculator > > > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > > > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization > > engage- > > > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > > > the right place. Try It Now! > > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Semediawiki-user mailing list > > > Sem...@li... > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Storage Efficiency Calculator > > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- > > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > > the right place. Try It Now! > > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Semediawiki-user mailing list > > Sem...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Storage Efficiency Calculator > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > the right place. Try It Now! http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user |
From: Jeroen De D. <jer...@gm...> - 2011-07-24 00:14:52
|
Hey, > Semantic MediaWiki site is rather closed — after registration I did not have permissions to edit pages, so I had no chances to improve it. That's quite unfortunate, and I agree this should be fixed. The original reason for implementing these additional editing restrictions was combating spam. I'd say it's worth the try to remove these once more, esp with the upcoming 1.6 release, which requires a bunch of documentation to be either updated or added. Markus is the only person that can change this config though. Until he changes it, definitely poke me or another admin [0] on the site to get the privileges needed to contribute. > It is hard to find the list of all parser functions, descriptions of all the parameters, all the allowed values, etc. A agree, such a list is needed. It can be modeled after the parser hook list in the Maps documentation [1]. > descriptions of all the parameters, all the allowed values, etc. We should probably have a similar category for all result formats/query printers. SMW 1.6 comes with a new parser hook that allows auto generating tables with parameters, their default values, their types and their descriptions for all result formats [2]. So as soon as SMW gets updated on the SMW wiki, this can easily be added. This code still has some internationalization issues (ie it won't work properly for non-English), but I'll try solve this soon after the release of SMW 1.6. [0] http://semantic-mediawiki.org/w/index.php?title=Special:ListUsers&group=sysop [1] http://mapping.referata.com/wiki/Category:Parser_hooks [2] http://mapping.referata.com/wiki/User:Jeroen_De_Dauw/smwdoc_test Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw http://www.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. -- |
From: Patrick N. <ma...@pa...> - 2011-07-24 05:01:32
|
Dear fast goldfish, writing anonymously, accusing Free Software volunteers of being greedy, that's pretty low. Patrick. -- Key ID: 0x86E346D4 http://patrick-nagel.net/key.asc Fingerprint: 7745 E1BE FA8B FBAD 76AB 2BFC C981 E686 86E3 46D4 |
From: badon <fas...@gm...> - 2011-07-25 23:19:50
|
This is what happens to documentation that an SMW user can utilize immediately: http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_talk:Semantic_Forms#removing_detailed_examples_requires_people_to_annoy_developers_for_basic_help Now that that information has been removed, unless somebody gets lucky in finding that info, they're going to have pay ungodly sums of money for a developer to do it for them. Coincidence? You decide. VERY upsetting. badon wrote: > > The documentation is much better now. There's still ways to improve it, > but it's good enough for me to get going. I'd like to add more > introductory material to it once I've collected enough information to > write that up. > > > > Dan Bolser-3 wrote: >> >> Personally I think the documentation isn't bad, but I always try to >> take the time to improve it when I can. >> >> It's good that you take time to log bugs, but you have to appreciate, >> if its broken, somebody has to fix it, and nobody's time is 'free'. >> >> Every project has it's own culture, and for sure some are better than >> others, but there is little mileage in just complaining. It's best to >> work out how to try to improve it for the best. >> >> >> On 23 July 2011 20:16, badon <fas...@gm...> wrote: >>> >>> Last year the documentation of Semantic Mediawiki was not good enough >>> for me >>> to understand how to get started on my project. I asked about paid >>> support. >>> Ever since then, it's hard to find someone who will help me with a >>> question >>> about SMW unless I pay them an income equivalent to almost $1/4 million >>> per >>> year. Seriously, I'm not making this up. >>> >>> While working on my SMW project, I spend most of my time isolating bugs >>> and >>> writing up detailed bug reports. The response to the work I put into my >>> bug >>> reports is sometimes something like: "We won't fix it unless you pay >>> us". >>> The greed is suffocating every interaction I have with the SMW >>> developers. >>> >>> Beware: >>> >>> Greed changes polite, generous, and helpful people. >>> >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goose_That_Laid_the_Golden_Eggs >>> >>> >>> -- >>> View this message in context: >>> http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32122897.html >>> Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at >>> Nabble.com. >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >>> Storage Efficiency Calculator >>> This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that >>> has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization >>> engage- >>> ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data >>> to >>> the right place. Try It Now! >>> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ >>> _______________________________________________ >>> Semediawiki-user mailing list >>> Sem...@li... >>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Storage Efficiency Calculator >> This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that >> has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization >> engage- >> ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to >> the right place. Try It Now! >> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Semediawiki-user mailing list >> Sem...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user >> >> > > -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32136280.html Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: Jeroen De D. <jer...@gm...> - 2011-07-26 00:55:01
|
Hey Badon, I think people have made it clear in their replies to this thread that your unfounded and non-constructive criticism and accusations are not helpful and not wanted. You are very much comming over as a troll. So please refrain from making such post and stick to what this mailing list is for: getting support and helping people that need support. Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw http://www.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. -- |
From: badon <fas...@gm...> - 2011-07-26 02:03:51
|
I volunteered MY TIME to make helpful documentation, only to have it nuked by people demanding huge sums of money for the same simple information, and you call ME a troll? Thanks for your resounding appreciation. Maybe I should bill you $1000 for the $100 per hour in 10 hours I spent learning and documenting a basic task, so that anybody could do it in 5 minutes, for free. My time is valuable, just like yours. What do you think? Can you afford me? If not, then BACK OFF, and let me document. Jeroen De Dauw-2 wrote: > > Hey Badon, > > I think people have made it clear in their replies to this thread that > your > unfounded and non-constructive criticism and accusations are not helpful > and > not wanted. You are very much comming over as a troll. So please refrain > from making such post and stick to what this mailing list is for: getting > support and helping people that need support. > > Cheers > > -- > Jeroen De Dauw > http://www.bn2vs.com > Don't panic. Don't be evil. > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32136882.html Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: Smith, T. <smi...@pg...> - 2011-07-26 02:17:14
|
Respect on this forum is earned. Yaron, Jeroen, and numerous others have made SMW what it is today. Their continued dedication is appreciated and necessary to the evolution of the SMW platform. Badon, I appreciate your efforts to contribute to this forum by documenting. However, please do not denigrate those that have much deeper knowledge and demonstrated commitment to this forum. On the business note, I have found Yaron and WikiWorks to be a great value when I have needed professional support. Again, respect is earned. Tim Smith > -----Original Message----- > From: badon [mailto:fas...@gm...] > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 10:04 PM > To: sem...@li... > Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] Why you will regret asking SMW people > about paid support > > > I volunteered MY TIME to make helpful documentation, only to have it > nuked by > people demanding huge sums of money for the same simple information, > and you > call ME a troll? > > Thanks for your resounding appreciation. Maybe I should bill you $1000 > for > the $100 per hour in 10 hours I spent learning and documenting a basic > task, > so that anybody could do it in 5 minutes, for free. My time is > valuable, > just like yours. > > What do you think? Can you afford me? If not, then BACK OFF, and let me > document. > > > > > Jeroen De Dauw-2 wrote: > > > > Hey Badon, > > > > I think people have made it clear in their replies to this thread > that > > your > > unfounded and non-constructive criticism and accusations are not > helpful > > and > > not wanted. You are very much comming over as a troll. So please > refrain > > from making such post and stick to what this mailing list is for: > getting > > support and helping people that need support. > > > > Cheers > > > > -- > > Jeroen De Dauw > > http://www.bn2vs.com > > Don't panic. Don't be evil. > > -- > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > --------- > > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in- > depth > > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used > to > > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Semediawiki-user mailing list > > Sem...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will- > regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32136882.html > Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at > Nabble.com. > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > ------- > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in- > depth > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user |
From: Krabina B. <kr...@kd...> - 2011-07-26 11:32:39
|
Dear all, Tim, thank you for your post. I fully agree with you, the developers of SMW deserve our respect and don not deserve to be treated like the way Fastgoldfish does. I have been using SMW for the last five years now. I'm not a developer, but an admin of many SMW installations. The developers have always been very resonsive and only on very rare occasions (such as bigger work like additional extensions) they indicated that funding would be needed to get things done. On the contrary, I have tried to motivate developers by offering funding, but it did not always help (as developers working on their PHd's have more important time restraints and money is not everything for them) I have twice paid Yaron for development work. I was fully satisfied on both occasions not to mention all the free support he (and many others on the list) have given me during the last years. I am also very grateful that Yaron took over the maintenance of some other very useful extensions that the original developers left abandoned. So I really do not know what you are talking about somebody being greedy here. However, you can have your opinion and many others like me will continue having their own positive experiences. But don't troll around and poison the very nice and respectful tone in this mailing list. A post like yours has not happend in the last five years. So go and think about it for a minute! We are better off without any of this bullshit. regards, Bernhard ----- Ursprüngliche Mail ----- > Respect on this forum is earned. > > Yaron, Jeroen, and numerous others have made SMW what it is today. > > Their continued dedication is appreciated and necessary to the > evolution of the SMW platform. > > Badon, I appreciate your efforts to contribute to this forum by > documenting. > > However, please do not denigrate those that have much deeper knowledge > and demonstrated commitment to this forum. > > On the business note, I have found Yaron and WikiWorks to be a great > value when I have needed professional support. > > Again, respect is earned. > > Tim Smith > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: badon [mailto:fas...@gm...] > > Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 10:04 PM > > To: sem...@li... > > Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] Why you will regret asking SMW > > people > > about paid support > > > > > > I volunteered MY TIME to make helpful documentation, only to have it > > nuked by > > people demanding huge sums of money for the same simple information, > > and you > > call ME a troll? > > > > Thanks for your resounding appreciation. Maybe I should bill you > > $1000 > > for > > the $100 per hour in 10 hours I spent learning and documenting a > > basic > > task, > > so that anybody could do it in 5 minutes, for free. My time is > > valuable, > > just like yours. > > > > What do you think? Can you afford me? If not, then BACK OFF, and let > > me > > document. > > > > > > > > > > Jeroen De Dauw-2 wrote: > > > > > > Hey Badon, > > > > > > I think people have made it clear in their replies to this thread > > that > > > your > > > unfounded and non-constructive criticism and accusations are not > > helpful > > > and > > > not wanted. You are very much comming over as a troll. So please > > refrain > > > from making such post and stick to what this mailing list is for: > > getting > > > support and helping people that need support. > > > > > > Cheers > > > > > > -- > > > Jeroen De Dauw > > > http://www.bn2vs.com > > > Don't panic. Don't be evil. > > > -- > > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > --------- > > > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > > > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes > > > in- > > depth > > > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria > > > used > > to > > > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > > > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Semediawiki-user mailing list > > > Sem...@li... > > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > > > > > > > > > -- > > View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will- > > regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32136882.html > > Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at > > Nabble.com. > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------- > > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes > > in- > > depth > > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used > > to > > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Semediawiki-user mailing list > > Sem...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes > in-depth > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used > to > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user |
From: badon <fas...@gm...> - 2011-07-26 18:28:40
|
Thanks for a sensible post on this subject. I agree, the dedication of the developers is impressive, and it's what inspired me to want to help them. They complain so much that they don't have time to help me unless I pay them huge sums of money, so I thought: "They must have that same problem with everyone. If I can write up better documentation, they'll be free to focus on what they prefer to do, instead of dealing with basic how-to-get-started questions all the time." That's why I was so shocked when they deleted everything I had written up. I could not come up with a positive explanation for why they would deliberately do something that makes it so MORE people will need to beg to pay them for their help. I have no interest in denigrating anyone. That's why I didn't mention any names. As you said, "Their continued dedication is appreciated and necessary to the evolution of the SMW platform.". Hopefully when this whole topic blows over, things will get back to normal. Developers will develop, documenters will document, and neither will feel superior privilege to casually abuse the other. Smith, Tim-3 wrote: > > Respect on this forum is earned. > > Yaron, Jeroen, and numerous others have made SMW what it is today. > > Their continued dedication is appreciated and necessary to the evolution > of the SMW platform. > > Badon, I appreciate your efforts to contribute to this forum by > documenting. > > However, please do not denigrate those that have much deeper knowledge and > demonstrated commitment to this forum. > > On the business note, I have found Yaron and WikiWorks to be a great value > when I have needed professional support. > > Again, respect is earned. > > Tim Smith > > >> -----Original Message----- >> From: badon [mailto:fas...@gm...] >> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2011 10:04 PM >> To: sem...@li... >> Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] Why you will regret asking SMW people >> about paid support >> >> >> I volunteered MY TIME to make helpful documentation, only to have it >> nuked by >> people demanding huge sums of money for the same simple information, >> and you >> call ME a troll? >> >> Thanks for your resounding appreciation. Maybe I should bill you $1000 >> for >> the $100 per hour in 10 hours I spent learning and documenting a basic >> task, >> so that anybody could do it in 5 minutes, for free. My time is >> valuable, >> just like yours. >> >> What do you think? Can you afford me? If not, then BACK OFF, and let me >> document. >> >> >> >> >> Jeroen De Dauw-2 wrote: >> > >> > Hey Badon, >> > >> > I think people have made it clear in their replies to this thread >> that >> > your >> > unfounded and non-constructive criticism and accusations are not >> helpful >> > and >> > not wanted. You are very much comming over as a troll. So please >> refrain >> > from making such post and stick to what this mailing list is for: >> getting >> > support and helping people that need support. >> > >> > Cheers >> > >> > -- >> > Jeroen De Dauw >> > http://www.bn2vs.com >> > Don't panic. Don't be evil. >> > -- >> > --------------------------------------------------------------------- >> --------- >> > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention >> > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in- >> depth >> > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used >> to >> > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. >> > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Semediawiki-user mailing list >> > Sem...@li... >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user >> > >> > >> >> -- >> View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will- >> regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32136882.html >> Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> >> >> ----------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ------- >> Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention >> Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in- >> depth >> analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to >> evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. >> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Semediawiki-user mailing list >> Sem...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32142443.html Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: Stephan G. <f....@gm...> - 2011-07-26 09:23:29
|
> Thanks for your resounding appreciation. Maybe I should bill you $1000 for > the $100 per hour in 10 hours I spent learning and documenting a basic task, > so that anybody could do it in 5 minutes, for free. My time is valuable, > just like yours. You do that. And while you are at it you could transfer some of it onto my account because IIRC I gave you the solution in the first place. I do not normally do that, but you are a self-centred puffed-up idiot. >From the 21 bugs you reported 20% were invalid 10% were duplicates 30% were enhancement requests (that you probably don't really need anyway) Out of the 21 you reported 4 as major or critical of which 50% were invalid 25% you insisted to reopen after somebody else marked it as a dup I will not go into a discussion about the appropriateness of marking something major or critical. Instead here are some quotes from your bug reports: * "I marked this bug "critical" because this is basic semantic wiki functionality that is not working." - on an invalid bug * "Too bad I'm not a talented coder" - still all the time you give nice statements about how easy something would be. * "Since the manual solution to this is so simple, I think it will be straightforward to automatically fix this problem..." - Uhuh, thanks. * "It looks like it wasn't fixed because it wasn't formally reported as a bug until quite recently. Now that it's been reported, hopefully no more modification date tricks will be needed..." - Yap, reporting fixed the problem. * "Giving incorrect results by default becomes clearly a bad choice in any situation where getting wrong data could kill people, cost somebody money, provoke legal consequences, and so forth." - Read the license? * "I don't need it. It was just something I noticed that DPL could sort of do, that SRF couldn't do at all." - I.e. you don't need it, nobody else needs it but you would like people to spend their time on developing it. You know, there are actually people doing this for fun. You take the fun out of it. Please go away. |
From: badon <fas...@gm...> - 2011-07-26 18:13:57
|
Wow, insults. And hostility for my first few bug reports. No wonder this project is monopolized by just a few people. Did you know there's no documentation that explains when to use the various severity levels in bug reports? Did you know that some of my mistaken bug reports were caused because the features were undocumented? Did you know that I'm new at this, and I'm going to make mistakes, whether you like it or not? You helped me solve a problem once. I gave back by writing up documentation that explains how to use your solution, so no one would have to bother you about it again. Why do you have hostility for that? You make no sense. Or, like some others, maybe you like the sense of power you get over people asking for help? Maybe you enjoy abusing people for "wasting your time", precisely because you've arranged it so there's inadequate documentation to help them do it on their own? I contribute, you tell me to go away. I've heard that before from SMW people. I'm noticing a pattern. What are you going to do if I DON'T go away? Not help me? Swear at me and call me names? Ridicule my contributions? What if I break your strangle-hold on information, and write up the documentation people need to use SMW without you? Will you feel so important and powerful then? Is that what you fear from me? You fear that maybe you would have to be polite to people if they didn't need you anymore? The horror! Hey, it's not so bad. At least people will "go away", and you won't even have to insult them. They'll just be happily using SMW on their own without needing to grovel on their knees for help. Win-win, for everybody! What do you think of that? Is that something you're opposed to? Stephan Gambke wrote: > >> Thanks for your resounding appreciation. Maybe I should bill you $1000 >> for >> the $100 per hour in 10 hours I spent learning and documenting a basic >> task, >> so that anybody could do it in 5 minutes, for free. My time is valuable, >> just like yours. > > You do that. And while you are at it you could transfer some of it > onto my account because IIRC I gave you the solution in the first > place. > I do not normally do that, but you are a self-centred puffed-up idiot. > >>From the 21 bugs you reported > 20% were invalid > 10% were duplicates > 30% were enhancement requests (that you probably don't really need anyway) > > Out of the 21 you reported 4 as major or critical of which > 50% were invalid > 25% you insisted to reopen after somebody else marked it as a dup > > I will not go into a discussion about the appropriateness of marking > something major or critical. > > Instead here are some quotes from your bug reports: > > * "I marked this bug "critical" because this is basic semantic wiki > functionality that is not working." - on an invalid bug > * "Too bad I'm not a talented coder" - still all the time you give > nice statements about how easy something would be. > * "Since the manual solution to this is so simple, I think it will be > straightforward to automatically fix this problem..." - Uhuh, thanks. > * "It looks like it wasn't fixed because it wasn't formally reported > as a bug until quite recently. Now that it's been reported, hopefully > no more modification date tricks will be needed..." - Yap, reporting > fixed the problem. > * "Giving incorrect results by default becomes clearly a bad choice in > any situation where getting wrong data could kill people, cost > somebody money, provoke legal consequences, and so forth." - Read the > license? > * "I don't need it. It was just something I noticed that DPL could > sort of do, that SRF couldn't do at all." - I.e. you don't need it, > nobody else needs it but you would like people to spend their time on > developing it. > > You know, there are actually people doing this for fun. You take the > fun out of it. Please go away. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32142337.html Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: Jeroen De D. <jer...@gm...> - 2011-07-26 18:26:45
|
Hey, > What if I break your strangle-hold on information, and write up the documentation people need to use SMW without you? Why don't you balk the evil plans all SMW developers apparently have by actually writing this documentation and providing support? I'm sure people will be grateful if you did this :) Beware that we, evil developers and community people, together with our friends the illuminate, will do whatever it takes to stop you, so we can proceed with our plans to enslave humanity. Cheers -- Jeroen De Dauw http://www.bn2vs.com Don't panic. Don't be evil. -- |
From: badon <fas...@gm...> - 2011-07-26 18:37:51
|
Haha, yeah. It seems I am taking crazy pills :) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4DVAsmrwdtQ Jeroen De Dauw-2 wrote: > > Hey, > >> What if I break your strangle-hold on information, and write up the > documentation people need to use SMW without you? > > Why don't you balk the evil plans all SMW developers apparently have by > actually writing this documentation and providing support? I'm sure people > will be grateful if you did this :) Beware that we, evil developers and > community people, together with our friends the illuminate, will do > whatever > it takes to stop you, so we can proceed with our plans to enslave > humanity. > > Cheers > > -- > Jeroen De Dauw > http://www.bn2vs.com > Don't panic. Don't be evil. > -- > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32142505.html Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: Christopher W. <gws...@gm...> - 2011-07-26 18:32:52
|
I think more of the issue is that the methods you are choosing in "contributing" run contrary (or at right angles) to the accepted practices that the community has in place. Driving against the flow of traffic on a highway causes accidents. The rules of the road may seem (overly) complicated to a novice driver or to someone who is coming from a place where the rules are different, but unless everyone agrees to follow them, collisions will occur. It is not unreasonable to want to have a central repository for documentation, nor is it unreasonable to ask that requests for enhancements/bugfixes/improved documentation be made through established channels and according to established procedures. In the end, you got your software for free. You are now complaining that the free car you were given did not include an owner's manual that is as comprehensive as you would like, and that the guy who gave you the free car isn't also performing free tune-ups and oil changes. You offer to contribute by working at the repair shop, but then refuse to learn and follow the safety regulations and established procedures that the shop has. -Chris On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:13 AM, badon <fas...@gm...> wrote: > > Wow, insults. And hostility for my first few bug reports. No wonder this > project is monopolized by just a few people. > > Did you know there's no documentation that explains when to use the various > severity levels in bug reports? Did you know that some of my mistaken bug > reports were caused because the features were undocumented? Did you know > that I'm new at this, and I'm going to make mistakes, whether you like it > or > not? > > You helped me solve a problem once. I gave back by writing up documentation > that explains how to use your solution, so no one would have to bother you > about it again. Why do you have hostility for that? You make no sense. > > Or, like some others, maybe you like the sense of power you get over people > asking for help? Maybe you enjoy abusing people for "wasting your time", > precisely because you've arranged it so there's inadequate documentation to > help them do it on their own? > > I contribute, you tell me to go away. I've heard that before from SMW > people. I'm noticing a pattern. What are you going to do if I DON'T go > away? > Not help me? Swear at me and call me names? Ridicule my contributions? > > What if I break your strangle-hold on information, and write up the > documentation people need to use SMW without you? Will you feel so > important > and powerful then? Is that what you fear from me? You fear that maybe you > would have to be polite to people if they didn't need you anymore? The > horror! > > Hey, it's not so bad. At least people will "go away", and you won't even > have to insult them. They'll just be happily using SMW on their own without > needing to grovel on their knees for help. Win-win, for everybody! > > What do you think of that? Is that something you're opposed to? > > > > > Stephan Gambke wrote: > > > >> Thanks for your resounding appreciation. Maybe I should bill you $1000 > >> for > >> the $100 per hour in 10 hours I spent learning and documenting a basic > >> task, > >> so that anybody could do it in 5 minutes, for free. My time is valuable, > >> just like yours. > > > > You do that. And while you are at it you could transfer some of it > > onto my account because IIRC I gave you the solution in the first > > place. > > I do not normally do that, but you are a self-centred puffed-up idiot. > > > >>From the 21 bugs you reported > > 20% were invalid > > 10% were duplicates > > 30% were enhancement requests (that you probably don't really need > anyway) > > > > Out of the 21 you reported 4 as major or critical of which > > 50% were invalid > > 25% you insisted to reopen after somebody else marked it as a dup > > > > I will not go into a discussion about the appropriateness of marking > > something major or critical. > > > > Instead here are some quotes from your bug reports: > > > > * "I marked this bug "critical" because this is basic semantic wiki > > functionality that is not working." - on an invalid bug > > * "Too bad I'm not a talented coder" - still all the time you give > > nice statements about how easy something would be. > > * "Since the manual solution to this is so simple, I think it will be > > straightforward to automatically fix this problem..." - Uhuh, thanks. > > * "It looks like it wasn't fixed because it wasn't formally reported > > as a bug until quite recently. Now that it's been reported, hopefully > > no more modification date tricks will be needed..." - Yap, reporting > > fixed the problem. > > * "Giving incorrect results by default becomes clearly a bad choice in > > any situation where getting wrong data could kill people, cost > > somebody money, provoke legal consequences, and so forth." - Read the > > license? > > * "I don't need it. It was just something I noticed that DPL could > > sort of do, that SRF couldn't do at all." - I.e. you don't need it, > > nobody else needs it but you would like people to spend their time on > > developing it. > > > > You know, there are actually people doing this for fun. You take the > > fun out of it. Please go away. > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes > in-depth > > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to > > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > > _______________________________________________ > > Semediawiki-user mailing list > > Sem...@li... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32142337.html > Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > |
From: badon <fas...@gm...> - 2011-07-26 18:42:53
|
I understand what you're saying, but I don't know what specifically you're talking about with this. As far as I can tell, the issue of rules governing where the documentation should go has not come up yet. Instead, the it has only been mentioned as whether it should be allowed to exist at all. Of course, my position is that not only should it exist, it should be detailed and easy to find. Christopher Wilson-3 wrote: > > I think more of the issue is that the methods you are choosing in > "contributing" run contrary (or at right angles) to the accepted practices > that the community has in place. Driving against the flow of traffic on a > highway causes accidents. The rules of the road may seem (overly) > complicated to a novice driver or to someone who is coming from a place > where the rules are different, but unless everyone agrees to follow them, > collisions will occur. > > It is not unreasonable to want to have a central repository for > documentation, nor is it unreasonable to ask that requests for > enhancements/bugfixes/improved documentation be made through established > channels and according to established procedures. > > In the end, you got your software for free. You are now complaining that > the > free car you were given did not include an owner's manual that is as > comprehensive as you would like, and that the guy who gave you the free > car > isn't also performing free tune-ups and oil changes. You offer to > contribute > by working at the repair shop, but then refuse to learn and follow the > safety regulations and established procedures that the shop has. > > -Chris > > On Tue, Jul 26, 2011 at 11:13 AM, badon <fas...@gm...> wrote: > >> >> Wow, insults. And hostility for my first few bug reports. No wonder this >> project is monopolized by just a few people. >> >> Did you know there's no documentation that explains when to use the >> various >> severity levels in bug reports? Did you know that some of my mistaken bug >> reports were caused because the features were undocumented? Did you know >> that I'm new at this, and I'm going to make mistakes, whether you like it >> or >> not? >> >> You helped me solve a problem once. I gave back by writing up >> documentation >> that explains how to use your solution, so no one would have to bother >> you >> about it again. Why do you have hostility for that? You make no sense. >> >> Or, like some others, maybe you like the sense of power you get over >> people >> asking for help? Maybe you enjoy abusing people for "wasting your time", >> precisely because you've arranged it so there's inadequate documentation >> to >> help them do it on their own? >> >> I contribute, you tell me to go away. I've heard that before from SMW >> people. I'm noticing a pattern. What are you going to do if I DON'T go >> away? >> Not help me? Swear at me and call me names? Ridicule my contributions? >> >> What if I break your strangle-hold on information, and write up the >> documentation people need to use SMW without you? Will you feel so >> important >> and powerful then? Is that what you fear from me? You fear that maybe you >> would have to be polite to people if they didn't need you anymore? The >> horror! >> >> Hey, it's not so bad. At least people will "go away", and you won't even >> have to insult them. They'll just be happily using SMW on their own >> without >> needing to grovel on their knees for help. Win-win, for everybody! >> >> What do you think of that? Is that something you're opposed to? >> >> >> >> >> Stephan Gambke wrote: >> > >> >> Thanks for your resounding appreciation. Maybe I should bill you $1000 >> >> for >> >> the $100 per hour in 10 hours I spent learning and documenting a basic >> >> task, >> >> so that anybody could do it in 5 minutes, for free. My time is >> valuable, >> >> just like yours. >> > >> > You do that. And while you are at it you could transfer some of it >> > onto my account because IIRC I gave you the solution in the first >> > place. >> > I do not normally do that, but you are a self-centred puffed-up idiot. >> > >> >>From the 21 bugs you reported >> > 20% were invalid >> > 10% were duplicates >> > 30% were enhancement requests (that you probably don't really need >> anyway) >> > >> > Out of the 21 you reported 4 as major or critical of which >> > 50% were invalid >> > 25% you insisted to reopen after somebody else marked it as a dup >> > >> > I will not go into a discussion about the appropriateness of marking >> > something major or critical. >> > >> > Instead here are some quotes from your bug reports: >> > >> > * "I marked this bug "critical" because this is basic semantic wiki >> > functionality that is not working." - on an invalid bug >> > * "Too bad I'm not a talented coder" - still all the time you give >> > nice statements about how easy something would be. >> > * "Since the manual solution to this is so simple, I think it will be >> > straightforward to automatically fix this problem..." - Uhuh, thanks. >> > * "It looks like it wasn't fixed because it wasn't formally reported >> > as a bug until quite recently. Now that it's been reported, hopefully >> > no more modification date tricks will be needed..." - Yap, reporting >> > fixed the problem. >> > * "Giving incorrect results by default becomes clearly a bad choice in >> > any situation where getting wrong data could kill people, cost >> > somebody money, provoke legal consequences, and so forth." - Read the >> > license? >> > * "I don't need it. It was just something I noticed that DPL could >> > sort of do, that SRF couldn't do at all." - I.e. you don't need it, >> > nobody else needs it but you would like people to spend their time on >> > developing it. >> > >> > You know, there are actually people doing this for fun. You take the >> > fun out of it. Please go away. >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention >> > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes >> in-depth >> > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to >> > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. >> > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Semediawiki-user mailing list >> > Sem...@li... >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user >> > >> > >> >> -- >> View this message in context: >> http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32142337.html >> Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention >> Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes >> in-depth >> analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to >> evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. >> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Semediawiki-user mailing list >> Sem...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Magic Quadrant for Content-Aware Data Loss Prevention > Research study explores the data loss prevention market. Includes in-depth > analysis on the changes within the DLP market, and the criteria used to > evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of these DLP solutions. > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51385063/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32142543.html Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |
From: badon <fas...@gm...> - 2011-07-26 18:46:18
|
This is a very well thought-out point of view on the subject. Thanks for writing it up. I keep this in mind as I read documentation written by developers, and think of ways to make it accessible and useful to people who don't (and never will) have the deep understanding of the topic that the developers have. Christopher Wilson-3 wrote: > > To chime in a little bit on this, I think part of the problem is that > there's a split in expectations (and always has been) between Developers > and > Admins. Most people who administer systems are closer to "Power Users" > than > they are to "Developers" and they see thing more from a User's perspective > than a Developer's perspective. > > Developers *hate* writing documentation, as they generally see it as a > waste > of time ("figure it out from the code" or "it's obvious to *me* how it > works"). There is also the issue of many (not all) developers lacking the > skills and/or mindset to effectively communicate in plain language how to > use the product. This is not intended as a knock on Developers, just an > observation. Writing code takes a mind that works differently than someone > who writes magazine articles, novels, or other things targeted at the > average person. > > Admins are closer to the Users, and are the people that the Users complain > to when something doesn't work they way they expect it to. Admins also > have > varying levels of programming knowledge and experience. Many are people > who > wound up in their role simply by virtue of being the most knowledgeable > user. When the Users ask "how do I do X?" or "Why doesn't Y work?", the > Admins need a place to go to find the answer, but frequently do not have > the > experience (or time) to dig through the code to find it. > > Admins are also frequently not comfortable running "bleeding edge" > software. > They (or their employers) want something that has been tested, and is > known > to work. Constantly updating from SVN to the absolute newest version may > be > an option for a random person running their own personal site, but it is > generally not an option in most environments with an organized IT > management > infrastructure. Some sort of a QA filter is usually required between the > Developer saying "It's done" and the software actually being released for > general use. > > Maybe the solution is to have people volunteer to bridge the gap: People > with enough programming experience to understand the code, document > functions and usage, understand limitations/bugs and help with > workarounds- > but who have the written communications skills to translate those things > into organized plain language. This would likely have two effects: > > 1) Reducing the amount of "pestering" that the Developers get > 2) Providing better satisfaction among the folks who use the software, > making people more willing to use it. > > I'm not saying that anybody should be expected to give up their time for > free. Developers should be compensated for the time they spend writing > software. Getting mad because they expect to be paid for a specific task > is > like getting mad at the mechanic who wants to be paid for fixing a car. > Even > if the mechanic designed and built the car for free, you can't expect them > to change the oil or adjust the ignition timing for free every time you > want > it done. > > Just some thoughts, and I apologize for rambling, but I figure at least > part > of the anger/irritation may be alleviated if the folks involved at least > have some perspective as to where the people on the other side are coming > from. > > -Chris Wilson > > On Sat, Jul 23, 2011 at 2:55 PM, Dan Bolser <dan...@gm...> wrote: > >> Personally I think the documentation isn't bad, but I always try to >> take the time to improve it when I can. >> >> It's good that you take time to log bugs, but you have to appreciate, >> if its broken, somebody has to fix it, and nobody's time is 'free'. >> >> Every project has it's own culture, and for sure some are better than >> others, but there is little mileage in just complaining. It's best to >> work out how to try to improve it for the best. >> >> >> On 23 July 2011 20:16, badon <fas...@gm...> wrote: >> > >> > Last year the documentation of Semantic Mediawiki was not good enough >> for >> me >> > to understand how to get started on my project. I asked about paid >> support. >> > Ever since then, it's hard to find someone who will help me with a >> question >> > about SMW unless I pay them an income equivalent to almost $1/4 million >> per >> > year. Seriously, I'm not making this up. >> > >> > While working on my SMW project, I spend most of my time isolating bugs >> and >> > writing up detailed bug reports. The response to the work I put into my >> bug >> > reports is sometimes something like: "We won't fix it unless you pay >> us". >> > The greed is suffocating every interaction I have with the SMW >> developers. >> > >> > Beware: >> > >> > Greed changes polite, generous, and helpful people. >> > >> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Goose_That_Laid_the_Golden_Eggs >> > >> > >> > -- >> > View this message in context: >> http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32122897.html >> > Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at >> Nabble.com. >> > >> > >> > >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> > Storage Efficiency Calculator >> > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property >> that >> > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization >> engage- >> > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data >> to >> > the right place. Try It Now! >> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ >> > _______________________________________________ >> > Semediawiki-user mailing list >> > Sem...@li... >> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user >> > >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Storage Efficiency Calculator >> This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that >> has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization >> engage- >> ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to >> the right place. Try It Now! >> http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ >> _______________________________________________ >> Semediawiki-user mailing list >> Sem...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user >> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Storage Efficiency Calculator > This modeling tool is based on patent-pending intellectual property that > has been used successfully in hundreds of IBM storage optimization engage- > ments, worldwide. Store less, Store more with what you own, Move data to > the right place. Try It Now! > http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfnl/114/51427378/ > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-user mailing list > Sem...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user > > -- View this message in context: http://old.nabble.com/Why-you-will-regret-asking-SMW-people-about-paid-support-tp32122897p32142567.html Sent from the Semantic Mediawiki - User mailing list archive at Nabble.com. |