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## AW: [SMW-devel] Units in RDF

 AW: [SMW-devel] Units in RDF From: MovGP0 - 2006-05-11 16:43:38 ```Have you already read my 2nd Mail about this theme?=20 ... 12.8 m ... To express my standpoint a bit clearer, I'm thinking that MathML might = be better learn from RDF and functional programming languages like CAML. Definitions of a function like the complex addition could look like an definition in CAML: let complexAdd =3D function c1 -> function c2 -> (fst c1)+(fst c2), = (snd c1)+(snd c2);; and could get expressed in RDF like: It might also be possible to reduce this to a simpler syntax: let times c1 c2 =3D (fst c1)+(fst c2), (snd c1)+(snd c2);; and in RDF: Also there would be the need to define special properties of functions. Something like: &math;infix × ċ =20 =20 =20 ... ... ... ... ... ... ys, MovGP0 > Max V=F6lkel wrote: >=20 > Hi MovGP0, >=20 > you propose > > rdf:about=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/_San_Diego">; > > > > > > > > 12.8 > > >=20 > = math:definitionURL=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Meter">m > :csymb > ol>> > > > > > > >=20 > which is fine for XML, but no for RDF. In N-Triples=20 > notation, which reveals better the triple model of RDF, this=20 > would be represented as: >=20 >=20 > ; > > . >=20 > ; > > " > 12.8 > math:definitionURL=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Meter"; > >m > " >=20 > which means that any tool that does not understand how to=20 > handle the XML-Lireral " > 12.8 > math:definitionURL=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Meter"; > >m > " would have no way of getting the value out of the data. >=20 > Our current solution is also far from perfect, but in an=20 > ideal world, one would write something like: >=20 > ; > > _:1 =3D a blank node >=20 > _:1 _:2 >=20 > _:1 "12.8" >=20 > _:2 "m" >=20 > _:2 >=20 > ... >=20 > It's an ongoing debate, how fine-granular the RDF should be. But the > RDF/XML syntax often blurs the distinction between model and > serialisation a bit too much. Take a look at the "N3=20 > Syntax" or even better the subset "Turtle" :-) >=20 >=20 > Kind regards, >=20 > Max V=F6lkel > -- > Dipl.-Inform. Max V=F6lkel, Universit=E4t Karlsruhe / FZI > nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org > voelkel@... +49 721 9654-854 http://www.xam.de >=20 > First Workshop on Semantic Wikis: http://semwiki.org >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web=20 > services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make=20 > your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server=20 > v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dk&kid=120709&bid&3057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > Semediawiki-devel@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel >=20 ```

 [SMW-devel] Units in RDF From: MovGP0 - 2006-05-09 20:11:56 ```We had a lot discussion about how to format Units within the Articlesource, how to present them to the user, and how to store it within the database. But what I'm missing so far is the discussion how to express Numerical Values within RDF. Currently each Entry without a fitting Type looks like: ; 12.8 What I'm missing here is the unit, because you might better write it as MathML: ; 12.8 m See also: http://www.w3.org/TR/mathml-units/ Ys, MovGP0 ```
 Re: [SMW-devel] Units in RDF From: Denny Vrandecic - 2006-05-10 10:47:01 ```Hi Mov, I'm afraid that MathML's unit support seems not compatible with RDF (blame the W3C for that --- I hope I am wrong). At least the snippet you send doesn't look like valid RDF. The RDF Primer contains a solution for units, though, which could be followed: http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-primer-20040210/#rdfvalue I would rather oppose the other way -- using an XML literal instead --- because of it's "out-of-RDF"-semantics. best, denny MovGP0 wrote: > We had a lot discussion about how to format Units within the Articlesource, > how to present them to the user, and how to store it within the database. > But what I'm missing so far is the discussion how to express Numerical > Values within RDF. Currently each Entry without a fitting Type looks like: > > > > ; > rdf:datatype="http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#decimal">12.8 ation_above_sea_level-23m> > > > rdf:about="http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/_Attribute-3AElevation_above_ > sea_level-23m"> > rdf:resource="http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Attribute:Elevation_above_ > sea_level"/> > rdf:resource="http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Special:ExportRDF/Attribut > e:Elevation_above_sea_level"/> > > > > > What I'm missing here is the unit, because you might better write it as > MathML: > > ; > > > > 12.8 > math:definitionURL="http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Meter">m ol> > > > > > See also: http://www.w3.org/TR/mathml-units/ > > Ys, MovGP0 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier > Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > Semediawiki-devel@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel ```
 Re: [SMW-devel] Units in RDF From: Markus - 2006-05-10 13:14:22 Attachments: Message as HTML ```On Wednesday 10 May 2006 12:46, Denny Vrandecic wrote: > Hi Mov, > > I'm afraid that MathML's unit support seems not compatible with RDF > (blame the W3C for that --- I hope I am wrong). At least the snippet you > send doesn't look like valid RDF. > > The RDF Primer contains a solution for units, though, which could be > followed: > > http://www.w3.org/TR/2004/REC-rdf-primer-20040210/#rdfvalue > > I would rather oppose the other way -- using an XML literal instead --- > because of it's "out-of-RDF"-semantics. Yes, we should stay compatible with RDF. But the solution from the primer=20 doesn't strike me as too brilliant either. First of all it uses blank nodes= =20 in vain, which is not recommended. Secondly, it puts the relevant informati= on=20 one level deeper into the graph, which might affect query efficiency.=20 =46or complx structures, there is no other way, but I would prefer to keep = the=20 graphs simple as long as this is feasible. In the way that we currently use= =20 units only to rename attributes, one basically looses all unit information.= =20 But so far no use case requires us to know more about the unit than whether= =20 it is the same for two values of one property or not. If more elaborate uni= t=20 information would be needed, I would opt to append it to the declaration of= =20 the *attribute* (with the unit). Do one obtains=20 attribute:Elevation_above_sea_level-23km smw:has_Unit_Factor swi:Meter attribute:Elevation_above_sea_level-23km smw:has_Unit_Scale 10^3^^xsd:deci= mal or something similar. Should be as queryable as the other version, but has = the=20 advantage that it is RDF with the most important data, the attributes value= ,=20 still being in place. And we avoid dublicating unit information every time = a=20 value is given to some attribute. =2D- Markus > > best, > denny > > MovGP0 wrote: > > We had a lot discussion about how to format Units within the > > Articlesource, how to present them to the user, and how to store it > > within the database. But what I'm missing so far is the discussion how = to > > express Numerical Values within RDF. Currently each Entry without a > > fitting Type looks like: > > > > > > > > > > > rdf:datatype=3D"http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#decimal">12.8 >lev ation_above_sea_level-23m> > > > > > > > rdf:about=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/_Attribute-3AElevation= _abo > >ve_ sea_level-23m"> > > > rdf:resource=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Attribute:Elevation= _abo > >ve_ sea_level"/> > > > rdf:resource=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Special:ExportRDF/A= ttri > >but e:Elevation_above_sea_level"/> > > > > > > > > > > What I'm missing here is the unit, because you might better write it as > > MathML: > > > > ; > > > > > > > > 12.8 > > > math:definitionURL=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Meter">m >ymb ol> > > > > > > > > > > See also: http://www.w3.org/TR/mathml-units/ > > > > Ys, MovGP0 > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------- > > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, securit= y? > > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job > > easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache > > Geronimo > > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D120709&bid=3D263057&dat= =3D121642 > > _______________________________________________ > > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > > Semediawiki-devel@... > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel > > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job > easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache > Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dlnk&kid=3D120709&bid=3D263057&dat= =3D121642 > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > Semediawiki-devel@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel =2D-=20 Markus Kr=F6tzsch Institute AIFB, University of Karlsruhe, D-76128 Karlsruhe mak@... phone +49 (0)721 608 7362 http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/WBS/ fax +49 (0)721 693 717 ```
 Re: [SMW-devel] Units in RDF From: - 2006-05-11 15:00:15 ```Hi MovGP0, you propose > ; > > > > 12.8 > math:definitionURL=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Meter">m> > > > which is fine for XML, but no for RDF. In N-Triples notation, which revea= ls better the triple model of RDF, this would be represented as: ; . ; " 12.8 m " which means that any tool that does not understand how to handle the XML-Lireral " 12.8 m " would have no way of getting the value out of the data. Our current solution is also far from perfect, but in an ideal world, one would write something like: ; _:1 =3D a blank node _:1 _:2 _:1 "12.8" _:2 "m" _:2 ... It's an ongoing debate, how fine-granular the RDF should be. But the RDF/XML syntax often blurs the distinction between model and serialisation a bit too much. Take a look at the "N3 Syntax" or even better the subset "Turtle" :-) Kind regards, Max V=F6lkel -- Dipl.-Inform. Max V=F6lkel, Universit=E4t Karlsruhe / FZI nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org voelkel@... +49 721 9654-854 http://www.xam.de First Workshop on Semantic Wikis: http://semwiki.org ```
 AW: [SMW-devel] Units in RDF From: MovGP0 - 2006-05-11 16:43:38 ```Have you already read my 2nd Mail about this theme?=20 ... 12.8 m ... To express my standpoint a bit clearer, I'm thinking that MathML might = be better learn from RDF and functional programming languages like CAML. Definitions of a function like the complex addition could look like an definition in CAML: let complexAdd =3D function c1 -> function c2 -> (fst c1)+(fst c2), = (snd c1)+(snd c2);; and could get expressed in RDF like: It might also be possible to reduce this to a simpler syntax: let times c1 c2 =3D (fst c1)+(fst c2), (snd c1)+(snd c2);; and in RDF: Also there would be the need to define special properties of functions. Something like: &math;infix × ċ =20 =20 =20 ... ... ... ... ... ... ys, MovGP0 > Max V=F6lkel wrote: >=20 > Hi MovGP0, >=20 > you propose > > rdf:about=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/_San_Diego">; > > > > > > > > 12.8 > > >=20 > = math:definitionURL=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Meter">m > :csymb > ol>> > > > > > > >=20 > which is fine for XML, but no for RDF. In N-Triples=20 > notation, which reveals better the triple model of RDF, this=20 > would be represented as: >=20 >=20 > ; > > . >=20 > ; > > " > 12.8 > math:definitionURL=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Meter"; > >m > " >=20 > which means that any tool that does not understand how to=20 > handle the XML-Lireral " > 12.8 > math:definitionURL=3D"http://wiki.ontoworld.org/index.php/Meter"; > >m > " would have no way of getting the value out of the data. >=20 > Our current solution is also far from perfect, but in an=20 > ideal world, one would write something like: >=20 > ; > > _:1 =3D a blank node >=20 > _:1 _:2 >=20 > _:1 "12.8" >=20 > _:2 "m" >=20 > _:2 >=20 > ... >=20 > It's an ongoing debate, how fine-granular the RDF should be. But the > RDF/XML syntax often blurs the distinction between model and > serialisation a bit too much. Take a look at the "N3=20 > Syntax" or even better the subset "Turtle" :-) >=20 >=20 > Kind regards, >=20 > Max V=F6lkel > -- > Dipl.-Inform. Max V=F6lkel, Universit=E4t Karlsruhe / FZI > nepomuk.semanticdesktop.org > voelkel@... +49 721 9654-854 http://www.xam.de >=20 > First Workshop on Semantic Wikis: http://semwiki.org >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 >=20 > ------------------------------------------------------- > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web=20 > services, security? > Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make=20 > your job easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server=20 > v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=3Dk&kid=120709&bid&3057&dat=121642 > _______________________________________________ > Semediawiki-devel mailing list > Semediawiki-devel@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-devel >=20 ```