Thanks,
 
That is helpful.

Michael
 

==========================
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works
425 373-2845
michael.f.uschold@boeing.com 
==========================

----------------------------------------------------
COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html


 


From: Sergey Chernyshev [mailto:sergey.chernyshev@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 11:43 AM
To: Uschold, Michael F
Cc: mediawiki-l@wikimedia.org; semediawiki-user@lists.sourceforge.net; swikig@aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de; Jones, David H; Kitzmiller, Ted; Badhrinath, Krishnakumar; Clark, Peter E; MarkG@vulcan.com; Folger, Deborah H
Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] Dynamic Page Listing (DPL) vs. Semantic Media Wiki

Michael,

In my experience with DLP and SMW, DLP is nowhere close to SMW in querying functionality, types and so one, but it has some features (e.g. sorting by data creation date, last update date and other article metadata, native to MediaWiki) that are useful and that's why I still use it on http://www.TechPresentations.org

To answer your questions:
1. Data types, relations between articles (not just links) and other features derived from the meaning of data on the page (I know it's vague, but SMW developers will probably give you better details on this one).
2. No, at least that's why I installed SMW and keep DLP just to provide listings of "latest" stuff.
3. If they need to aggregate information from their wiki in really different way, then they need SMW - take a look at TechPresentations for simple, not very complex example. I also use SIMILE timeline representation of SMW data heavily in there.
4. DLP just wasn't enough for me
5. Yes, adding some DLP functionality to SMW makes absolute sense and I hope it'll be done by development team.

          Sergey


On 8/2/07, Uschold, Michael F <michael.f.uschold@boeing.com> wrote:

There is a striking overlap in capability between the DPL extension of MediaWiki and the Semantic Media Wiki.  Chief among these are:

1. Both rely on metadata to add a structural foundation to an important subset of Wiki page content
2. The structured content sits in a metadata-based data store of some kind
3. The  data store can be queried to dynamically generate web pages

I would go so far as to say that these are [possibly by far] the MAIN advantages of both.
This raises some important questions:

  1. What is the added value of the Semantic Media Wiki extension when I can do so much of the same kind of thing with DPL?
  2. Does DPL give you 80% of what the semantic media wiki offers w/ 20% of the effort?
  3. How can I argue to my customers that a semantic wiki is really necessary, when we have things like DPL?
  4. What are the pros and cons and tradeoffs of each approach, when viewed as alternatives?
  5. Is there a way to merge the extensions so there are not two implementation of fundamentally similar functionality?
Any thoughts?
 
 
Thanks
Michael




==========================
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works
425 373-2845
michael.f.uschold@boeing.com 
==========================

----------------------------------------------------
COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html



-----Original Message-----
From: Uschold, Michael F
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 5:57 PM
To: Kelly Jones; mediawiki-l@Wikimedia.org; semediawiki-user@lists.sourceforge.net; swikig@aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de
Cc: David Huynh
Subject: RE: [swikig] semarbtri help request

Adding to my earlier comment...

It is interesting that you have just done this, despite numerous arguments about why/how it could not or should not be done.  I was never competent to evaluate those arguments from a programmer/ software engineer's perspective, but I never bought them from a user perspective.

This raises some questions:
* how to you address those arguments? (from past forum entries)
* are there any tradeoffs from a user or developer's perspective? (which in a sense patially validate those arguments)

Thanks
Michael


-----Original Message-----
From: Uschold, Michael F
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 12:25 PM
To: Kelly Jones; mediawiki-l@Wikimedia.org; semediawiki-user@lists.sourceforge.net; swikig@aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de
Cc: David Huynh
Subject: Re: [swikig] semarbtri help request

FANTASTIC!  Kudos to you for figuring out a way to do this.

Here's an idea: why not integrate the triples viewing capabilities of Similes' Exhibit (http://simile.mit.edu/exhibit/) into the bottom of the Semantic Media Wiki page as an alternative to the table of triples.
Possibly as a link to a separate window, or possibly embedded into the wiki page itself (which may be much harder).

Michael 


==========================
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works
425 373-2845
michael.f.uschold@boeing.com
==========================

----------------------------------------------------
COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go
to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html



-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Jones [mailto:kelly.terry.jones@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:37 PM
To: mediawiki-l@Wikimedia.org; semediawiki-user@lists.sourceforge.net;
swikig@aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de
Subject: [swikig] semarbtri help request

I've now created a test site for a semantic MediaWiki that lets you put the triple (x,R,y) anywhere, not just on page x:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

The code is available:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/SemArbTri.txt

The syntax for a triple is "[[x::R::y]]" (or just "[[R::y]]" if you're already on page x).

Broken things I'd like help with:

% When editing an existing page, all the semantic info vanishes.
Compare:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/The_Light_Fantastic
http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Light_Fantastic&act
ion=edit

The first page has semantic info, the second doesn't. My extension does have a "in edit mode, don't display semantic data" comment + some supporting code, but commenting out this code doesn't help.

% When editing a new page, semantic info is visible, but unformatted:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wizard&action=edit

% If I try to protect against spammers by adding this to
LocalSettings.php:

$wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = false;

the semantic info disappears when you're viewing new (non-existent) pages. I've commented this setting out for now (so I can't give an example page of where this happens), but I'd like to get this fixed.

% Minor: my code breaks the "nowiki" tag (so the main page says "((x::R::y))" instead of "[[x::R::y]]" when giving an example)

% Minor: weird empty semantic triple at the bottom of some pages:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Troll

(am I doing the MySQL SELECT wrong?)

% These are the "big" errors. There are many smaller errors + lots of features I want to add.

Any volunteers? No CVS or anything yet (the sf.net page is not up-to-date), but please send suggestions/code improvements.

--
We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile.

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