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## rosegarden-user

 [Rosegarden-user] Presentation and question about segment repetition representation in notation (and/or lilypond) From: Aurelien - 2008-01-27 11:10:01 ```Hi, I'm W.O.II, play mainly bass and sing, especially in the band Sebkha-Chott (www.sebkhachott.net), whos music is distributed under Free Art License. I work in a label called AMMD (www.ammd.net), which produces, books, manages free eklektikal artists (free as the licenses we use are always free license). I've been using rosegarden for a while, but I just begin trying to get really clean notations for my band fellows! Concerning rosegarden, I'm currently experiencing a problem, and I can't figure out how to fix it. I've been written an alto saxophone segment, omething quite slavish, and so it works with these signatures: 9/8 7/8 7/8 9/8 9/8 7/8 7/8 7/8 This segment is repeated twice, then there is a copy of half this segment, like: 9/8 7/8 7/8 9/8 and then it turns to another segment, running on: 9/8 7/8 which is also repeated. Usually, this whole sequence should be written like _________________________ ______________ |1. 2. |3. ||: 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 9/8 | 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 :||: 9/8 | 7/8 :|| Or something like that. At least, one wants it to be written that way: ||: 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 9/8 | 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 :|| ... ... 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 9/8 ||: 9/8 | 7/8 :|| (by ... I mean that the following measure is on the next line) But I get something different using Rosegarden preview: ||: 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 9/8 | 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 :|| | | | | | | | ... ... 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 9/8 ||: 9/8 | 7/8 :|| or lilypond preview (quite more hard to describe): ||: 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 9/8 | 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 :|| | a 9/8 with only three 8th inside | a measure which turns to 7/8 after six 8th inside | and so on (actually, it seems the measures and measure bars are time-delayed) In the first cas, it makes the notation quite unreadable, as there are some empty measure which shouldn't be taken into account. In the second case, the notation is false right after the repetition. I suppose that there is a way to get it fixed properly, and that it comes more fomr me than from the softwares, but I can't find a solution. by the way, I observed also another problem: when exporting to lilypond (or previewing through lilypond), the "mordant" (French word for this sign like /\/) aren't displayed, and there are some alone 8th notes whhich stem is replaced by an horizontal line. Thank you! Regards, -- ============================== ORL /// AMMD Booking (www.ammd.net) ° Sebkha-Chott (www.sebkhachott.net - Ohreland [FR]) - next touring period: 04-06/2008 ° Unexpect (www.unexpect.com - Montréal [CA]) - Europe tour w/ Sebkha-Chott period: 09-12/2008 ° La Muette (www.myspace.com/muette - Paris [FR]) - next touring period: 03-05/2008 ° Mel-P (http://melpmusic.websanslimit.net - Le Mans [FR]) - next touring period: 01-04/2008 Phone: +33 (0)95 234 72 48 ```
 Re: [Rosegarden-user] =?iso-8859-1?q?Presentation_and_question_about_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?segment_repetition_representation=09in_notation_=28?= =?iso-8859-1?q?and/or_lilypond=29?= From: D. Michael McIntyre - 2008-01-27 16:30:21 ```On Sunday 27 January 2008, Aurelien wrote: > I'm W.O.II ?? > Concerning rosegarden, I'm currently experiencing a problem, and I can't > figure out how to fix it. > Usually, this whole sequence should be written like > > _________________________ ______________ > > |1. 2. |3. > ||: > ||: 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 9/8 | 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 :||: 9/8 | 7/8 :|| > I suppose that there is a way to get it fixed properly, and that it > comes more fomr me than from the softwares, but I can't find a solution. This is an ugly scenario with all these time signature changes. I'm not sure if it's possible or not. I'd have to get the actual file and see what I could do with it. If you care to do so, please send me (directly, not to the list) the .rg file, and I will try to fix it, and if I am able to do so, I will document the steps in a mini tutorial for the web. It would be especially helpful if you could send a (digital) copy of the original score too, so I have a reference. > by the way, I observed also another problem: when exporting to lilypond > (or previewing through lilypond), the "mordant" (French word for this > sign like /\/) aren't displayed, and there are some alone 8th notes > whhich stem is replaced by an horizontal line. I'd be happy to look at any bugs like this while trying to do something with the file. We are currently concentrating on notation issues, and this is a good time to find such bugs. If none of this does you any good today, perhaps it will at least help make the next release of Rosegarden capable of accomplishing this particular challenge. Though I stop short of promising that outright. First I need to see just how wide the gap is we have to bridge here. -- D. Michael McIntyre ```
 Re: [Rosegarden-user] Presentation and question about segment repetition representation in notation (and/or lilypond) From: Kevin Cosgrove - 2008-01-27 16:58:47 ```On 27 January 2008 at 12:10, Aurelien wrote: > Concerning rosegarden, I'm currently experiencing a problem, and I can't > figure out how to fix it. > I've been written an alto saxophone segment, omething quite slavish, and > so it works with these signatures: > 9/8 7/8 7/8 9/8 9/8 7/8 7/8 7/8 > This segment is repeated twice, then there is a copy of half this > segment, like: > 9/8 7/8 7/8 9/8 > and then it turns to another segment, running on: > 9/8 7/8 > which is also repeated. > > Usually, this whole sequence should be written like > > _________________________ ______________ > |1. 2. |3. > ||: 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 9/8 | 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 :||: 9/8 | 7/8 :|| One of the bands I'm in also plays music with shifting time sigs. In our case the music is Balkan style (whether original or traditional). I've played songs that are 7/8 9/8 11/8 ... 4/4 ... 7/8 9/8 11/8. They weren't charted with repeats, maybe because I received a MIDI file from the guy who wrote them in Finale'. I'm not sure how to solve your problem, but I'm very interested in hearing the final story. Good luck & thanks..... -- Kevin ```
 Re: [Rosegarden-user] Presentation and question about segment repetition representation in notation (and/or lilypond) From: Aurelien - 2008-01-27 17:53:19 ```On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 08:58:44AM -0800, Kevin Cosgrove wrote : > > On 27 January 2008 at 12:10, Aurelien wrote: > > > Concerning rosegarden, I'm currently experiencing a problem, and I can't > > figure out how to fix it. > > I've been written an alto saxophone segment, omething quite slavish, and > > so it works with these signatures: > > 9/8 7/8 7/8 9/8 9/8 7/8 7/8 7/8 > > This segment is repeated twice, then there is a copy of half this > > segment, like: > > 9/8 7/8 7/8 9/8 > > and then it turns to another segment, running on: > > 9/8 7/8 > > which is also repeated. > > > > Usually, this whole sequence should be written like > > > > _________________________ ______________ > > |1. 2. |3. > > ||: 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 9/8 | 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 :||: 9/8 | 7/8 :|| > > One of the bands I'm in also plays music with shifting time > sigs. In our case the music is Balkan style (whether original > or traditional). I've played songs that are 7/8 9/8 11/8 ... > 4/4 ... 7/8 9/8 11/8. They weren't charted with repeats, maybe > because I received a MIDI file from the guy who wrote them in > Finale'. I'm not sure how to solve your problem, but I'm very > interested in hearing the final story. Yeah, the fact is that repeating segment seems to be the problem, as it leads to repetition sign in the notations. By the way, Sebhka-Chott (the band I'm writing this song for) isn't truely what one would call a Balkan music band, though we do love this musical style and consider it as one of our biggest influence. Sebkha-Chott is something much more like Frank Zappa, Magma, Mr bungle, Fantômas, and so on... Quite metallic, indeed! -- ============================== ORL /// AMMD Booking (www.ammd.net) ° Sebkha-Chott (www.sebkhachott.net - Ohreland [FR]) - next touring period: 04-06/2008 ° Unexpect (www.unexpect.com - Montréal [CA]) - Europe tour w/ Sebkha-Chott period: 09-12/2008 ° La Muette (www.myspace.com/muette - Paris [FR]) - next touring period: 03-05/2008 ° Mel-P (http://melpmusic.websanslimit.net - Le Mans [FR]) - next touring period: 01-04/2008 Phone: +33 (0)95 234 72 48 ```
 Re: [Rosegarden-user] Presentation and question about segment repetition representation?in notation (and/or lilypond) From: Aurelien - 2008-01-27 17:51:08 ```On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 11:30:10AM -0500, D. Michael McIntyre wrote : > On Sunday 27 January 2008, Aurelien wrote: > > > I'm W.O.II > > ?? Oh, well, that's my nick, actually. It means Wladimir Ohrelianov II, see there: http://sebkhachott.websanslimit.net/ohreland/ohreland_genesis.php ;) > > > Concerning rosegarden, I'm currently experiencing a problem, and I can't > > figure out how to fix it. > > > Usually, this whole sequence should be written like > > > > _________________________ ______________ > > > > |1. 2. |3. > > ||: > > ||: 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 9/8 | 9/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 | 7/8 :||: 9/8 | 7/8 :|| > > > I suppose that there is a way to get it fixed properly, and that it > > comes more fomr me than from the softwares, but I can't find a solution. > > This is an ugly scenario with all these time signature changes. I'm not sure > if it's possible or not. I'd have to get the actual file and see what I > could do with it. > > If you care to do so, please send me (directly, not to the list) the .rg file, > and I will try to fix it, and if I am able to do so, I will document the > steps in a mini tutorial for the web. OK, I'm gonna send it to you. > > It would be especially helpful if you could send a (digital) copy of the > original score too, so I have a reference. OK, I don't have the original score on a digital medium yet, but I'm gonna try to do that in this week (time to find a scanner). By the way, does Rosegarden/Lylipond know this |1. 2. |3. notation ? I suppose it's quite hard to program, probably more than a simple repetition, isn't it? > > > by the way, I observed also another problem: when exporting to lilypond > > (or previewing through lilypond), the "mordant" (French word for this > > sign like /\/) aren't displayed, and there are some alone 8th notes > > whhich stem is replaced by an horizontal line. > > I'd be happy to look at any bugs like this while trying to do something with > the file. We are currently concentrating on notation issues, and this is a > good time to find such bugs. If none of this does you any good today, > perhaps it will at least help make the next release of Rosegarden capable of > accomplishing this particular challenge. Though I stop short of promising > that outright. First I need to see just how wide the gap is we have to > bridge here. Yeah, OK, right, I'll send you the rg file as soon as I'll end this mail! :) Thanks a lot! -- ============================== ORL /// AMMD Booking (www.ammd.net) ° Sebkha-Chott (www.sebkhachott.net - Ohreland [FR]) - next touring period: 04-06/2008 ° Unexpect (www.unexpect.com - Montréal [CA]) - Europe tour w/ Sebkha-Chott period: 09-12/2008 ° La Muette (www.myspace.com/muette - Paris [FR]) - next touring period: 03-05/2008 ° Mel-P (http://melpmusic.websanslimit.net - Le Mans [FR]) - next touring period: 01-04/2008 Phone: +33 (0)95 234 72 48 ```
 Re: [Rosegarden-user] =?iso-8859-1?q?Presentation_and_question_about_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?segment=09repetition_representation=3Fin_notation_?= =?iso-8859-1?q?=28and/or_lilypond=29?= From: D. Michael McIntyre - 2008-01-27 22:11:00 Attachments: notation.jpg ```On Sunday 27 January 2008, Aurelien wrote: > Oh, well, that's my nick, actually. It means Wladimir Ohrelianov II, see > there: http://sebkhachott.websanslimit.net/ohreland/ohreland_genesis.php > ;) Ah. > OK, I'm gonna send it to you. I got it. I haven't had time to think about whether there's anything good we can do with this. Usually I try to set things up so that I have one set of segments that will come out correctly as notation, and another set of segments that come out correctly for playback, but in this case with the time signatures, I don't think that's going to be possible. (See the example file lilypond-alternative-endings.rg for a small demonstration of what I mean.) I just don't see a way out of having a different file for playback, unfortunately. The two can't coexist, and the only way to fix the notation is to close up the gaps. So for starters, define a loop/range from 9 to 21, and cut it. I tried to do another range from 11 to the end, and cut that, but it didn't work, so I shortened the composition (Composition -> Change Start and End Time) to only 10 bars. Then you have to stick some LilyPond directives in here to get 1. and 2. endings (and 3. or more are not currently possible) with an Alt1-> somewhere in the first bar of wherever the alternate is supposed to begin (not clear from this text) and Alt2-> in the last bar. It's all quite unpleasant, I'm afraid. Just barely possible, but possible. Sort of. See attachment. (Super compressed so maybe this post will go to the list without being rejected.) That gets a long way, but there are still problems with rendering the little squiggles as tr in LilyPond. I bet this is because they're trying to go out as a long trill, and the note is too short. It would display tr /\/\/\/\/ on a longer note, I bet. This long trill is something Heikki did for me just before some previous release, and it caused more problems than it cured, I fear. We need to give that some more attention. I already have a related bug report open, and this looks like the same phenomenon. > By the way, does Rosegarden/Lylipond know this |1. 2. |3. notation ? I > suppose it's quite hard to program, probably more than a simple > repetition, isn't it? It is. That's why we don't really support it, except through the kludge "LilyPond Directive" mechanism. Even then, we only do two endings, but I think the code is there for up to four, just commented out. I don't remember why I commented it out. I haven't done up a tutorial of this, since it was a lot shorter than I was imagining. Let's see if what I've said is enough. Plus I'll mail you back my modified file. -- D. Michael McIntyre ```