Thread: [Pyobjc-dev] Moving this list to python.org?
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From: Dinu G. <gh...@da...> - 2003-10-20 15:08:51
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Hi, given the sometimes very long delays in message distribution and other features like archives which seem not to be available for easy downloading: what do people think of moving this list to python.org? Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman - http://python.net/~gherman ...................................................................... "The best way to predict the future is to invent it." (Alan Kay) |
From: Just v. R. <ju...@le...> - 2003-10-21 08:37:35
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Dinu Gherman wrote: > given the sometimes very long delays in message distribution and > other features like archives which seem not to be available for > easy downloading: what do people think of moving this list to > python.org? I don't see why python.org would or should support mailing lists for arbitrary Python projects. Just |
From: Dinu G. <gh...@da...> - 2003-10-20 18:11:55
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Just van Rossum: > I don't see why python.org would or should support mailing lists for > arbitrary Python projects. Why do you think PyObjC is different from PIL or others on the following list? http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman - http://python.net/~gherman ...................................................................... "If the Nuremberg laws were applied, then every post-war American president would have been hanged." (Noam Chomsky) |
From: Just v. R. <ju...@le...> - 2003-10-20 20:15:56
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Dinu Gherman wrote: > Why do you think PyObjC is different from PIL or others on the > following list? > > http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo Where do you see an invitation to 3rd party developers to host their mailing lists on python.org? (Btw. I don't see a PIL list there, although I'd agree that the image-sig is essentially that. But it didn't start out like that.) Most lists on python.org are SIGs or otherwise directly related to Python. The exceptions (mailman, spambayes, idle, medusa) are obviously there because the people involved with these project deeply involved with python.org (eg. Andrew Kuchling, Barry Warsaw., Tim Peters, Guido). I agree it's not fair... Just |
From: Dinu G. <gh...@da...> - 2003-10-21 01:51:43
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Just van Rossum: > Most lists on python.org are SIGs or otherwise directly related to > Python. The exceptions (mailman, spambayes, idle, medusa) are obviously > there because the people involved with these project deeply involved > with python.org (eg. Andrew Kuchling, Barry Warsaw., Tim Peters, > Guido). > I agree it's not fair... PyObjC is probably more directly related to Python than the getopt-SIG, and EuroPython has certainly not much to do with PythonLabs either... Let's face it: SF mails show 6 hours and more of delay and if python.org is politically incorrect, than I bet python.net would still be better than what we have now. Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman - http://python.net/~gherman ...................................................................... "Honest disagreement is often a good sign of progress." (Gandhi) |
From: Just v. R. <ju...@le...> - 2003-10-21 10:07:06
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Dinu Gherman wrote: > PyObjC is probably more directly related to Python than the > getopt-SIG, Disagreed. From the getopt-sig charter: "The goal is to come up with a new and improved interface for command-line parsing for Python 2.3." > and EuroPython has certainly not much to do with PythonLabs either... EuroPython is good for Python in a very broad sense. > Let's face it: SF mails show 6 hours and more of delay and if > python.org is politically incorrect, It's not politically incorrect, it's simply not python.org's responsibility to host arbitrary mailing lists. Let's face it, PyObjC, no matter how cool, is "just a project". > than I bet python.net would still be better than what we have now. Let's wait a while and see whether it's a temporary problem with SF's mailing lists. It is very annoying indeed, but moving a mailing list is also very annoying. Maybe the problem will just go away. Just |
From: Dinu G. <gh...@da...> - 2003-10-21 15:02:05
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Just van Rossum: > Disagreed. From the getopt-sig charter: "The goal is to come up with a > new and improved interface for command-line parsing for Python 2.3." > [...] EuroPython is good for Python in a very broad sense. [...] > It's not politically incorrect, it's simply not python.org's > responsibility to host arbitrary mailing lists. Let's face it, PyObjC, > no matter how cool, is "just a project". Right, well, then look at this one, e.g. :-) Spambayes: "This mailing list discusses a Python implementation of a Bayesian classifier, with anti-spam aspirations. It is the discussion list adjunct to the spambayes project on SourceForge." http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/spambayes http://sourceforge.net/projects/spambayes > Let's wait a while and see whether it's a temporary problem with SF's > mailing lists. It is very annoying indeed, but moving a mailing list is > also very annoying. Maybe the problem will just go away. Well, it's not the first time I'm observing these delays. Maybe it's not just going away. In any case, the end of the year would be a good time for moving a list and the according archives, which are just not available in a downloadable form, are they? Dinu -- Dinu C. Gherman - http://python.net/~gherman ...................................................................... "Honest disagreement is often a good sign of progress." (Gandhi) |
From: Russell F. <rs...@sp...> - 2003-10-21 15:31:34
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Another option for hosting mailing lists would be at pythonmac.org -- I signed up for the same birthday deal ("Strictly Business SALE!") at DreamHost that Bob(?) did, and one of the features that comes for free is unlimited discussion and announcement lists. In the short time I've used DreamHost for limited uses (five e-mail accounts, mostly) they've been pretty reliable and responsive. -- Russell Finn rs...@sp... |
From: Chris R. <cp...@em...> - 2003-10-21 16:07:16
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I'd be happy to host pyobcj-dev on emsoftware.com, which is a fairly low-load dedicated server, if it comes to that. We've been around 13.5 years as a software development company (this server itself has been up continuously for over a year now), and our load average is usually around 0.01. ;-) And, yes, we run mailman (albeit a somewhat ancient version--when something works I hate to disturb it--that's why we're running RH 6.2 as well). Just a thought. On Tuesday, October 21, 2003, at 11:29 AM, Russell Finn wrote: > Another option for hosting mailing lists would be at pythonmac.org -- > I signed up for the same birthday deal ("Strictly Business SALE!") at > DreamHost that Bob(?) did, and one of the features that comes for free > is unlimited discussion and announcement lists. > > In the short time I've used DreamHost for limited uses (five e-mail > accounts, mostly) they've been pretty reliable and responsive. > > -- Russell Finn > rs...@sp... Cheers! --Chris Ryland / Em Software, Inc. / www.emsoftware.com |
From: Bob I. <bo...@re...> - 2003-10-22 09:23:10
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On Tuesday, Oct 21, 2003, at 11:29 America/New_York, Russell Finn wrote: > Another option for hosting mailing lists would be at pythonmac.org -- > I signed up for the same birthday deal ("Strictly Business SALE!") at > DreamHost that Bob(?) did, and one of the features that comes for free > is unlimited discussion and announcement lists. > > In the short time I've used DreamHost for limited uses (five e-mail > accounts, mostly) they've been pretty reliable and responsive. Yeah, I could setup lists at pythonmac.org. I also have a dedicated server at media temple that I could host lists at, which may be a better choice because it's got spam filtering and such. I haven't used Dreamhost for email yet so I don't know how they are with that. -bob |
From: Just v. R. <ju...@le...> - 2003-10-21 18:36:48
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Dinu Gherman wrote: > Right, well, then look at this one, e.g. :-) Now you're just being a pain. > Spambayes: I said there are exceptions, and that most of these exceptions (actually, all, as far as I can tell) have ties with the python.org crew or PythonLabs. In this case it's Tim Peters, who started the Spambayes project. Can you drop it now? Thank you. Just |
From: Jack J. <Jac...@cw...> - 2003-10-22 06:20:13
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Well, one of the things I'd still like to happen at some point in the future is to integrate PyObjC into mainline Python. Mainly because that is the only way (I think) we can smuggle PyObjC (and thereby things like the next generation IDE and PackMan and whatever, that are in all likelyhood going to be written in PyObjC) into MacOSX 10.4, which is an important step in my quest for World Domination. If this would mean separating out the existing MacPython stuff from the core Python tree (to integrate it with PyObjC into a new MacPython subproject of Python) I think I'd be willing to do that. The first hurdle to be taken for this to happen would be to get PyObjC under the right license, and preferably with the PSF as copyright holder. Unfortunately this may also be the most difficult step, not only getting all the current copyright holders to agree, but also some of the people who may have become lost in the mist of time... -- Jack Jansen, <Jac...@cw...>, http://www.cwi.nl/~jack If I can't dance I don't want to be part of your revolution -- Emma Goldman |
From: Bob I. <bo...@re...> - 2003-10-22 10:36:16
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On Oct 21, 2003, at 4:50 PM, Jack Jansen wrote: > Well, one of the things I'd still like to happen at some point in the > future > is to integrate PyObjC into mainline Python. Mainly because that is the > only way (I think) we can smuggle PyObjC (and thereby things like the > next > generation IDE and PackMan and whatever, that are in all likelyhood > going > to be written in PyObjC) into MacOSX 10.4, which is an important step > in > my quest for World Domination. > > If this would mean separating out the existing MacPython stuff from the > core Python tree (to integrate it with PyObjC into a new MacPython > subproject > of Python) I think I'd be willing to do that. > > The first hurdle to be taken for this to happen would be to get PyObjC > under the right license, and preferably with the PSF as copyright > holder. > Unfortunately this may also be the most difficult step, not only > getting > all the current copyright holders to agree, but also some of the people > who may have become lost in the mist of time... I'm not sure if it's necessarily the Only Way, because Apple did include some non-mainline Python stuff in 10.3 (namely, their CoreGraphics wrapper). If we had proper communication channels to Apple, it wouldn't be impossible to get them to include PyObjC and whatever else built alongside Python, even if they weren't in the mainline distribution. They also did this with Perl (their ObjC bridge, and a few other things I believe) way sooner. -bob |
From: Zachery B. <zb...@ur...> - 2003-10-22 19:11:10
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Before today, a whole buncha people argued: > [Gripe!!] > >> [Gripe?!] >> >>> [Gripe.] >>> >>>> [Question?] I've talked with Barry Warsaw, the Maintainer of the Lists on python.org. He has no problems with the PyObjC list being hosted there. Sometimes, rather than getting into pissing contests, it's better to just ask those in the know. ;) Zac |
From: Just v. R. <ju...@le...> - 2003-10-24 18:50:10
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Zachery Bir wrote: > Before today, a whole buncha people argued: > > > [Gripe!!] > > > >> [Gripe?!] > >> > >>> [Gripe.] > >>> > >>>> [Question?] > > I've talked with Barry Warsaw, the Maintainer of the Lists on > python.org. He has no problems with the PyObjC list being hosted > there. Sometimes, rather than getting into pissing contests, it's > better to just ask those in the know. ;) That's the way to do it... Sorry, I suppose I was just having a bad day. I was simply offended by the idea that we (the PyObjC community) could somehow _decide_ to move our list(s) there. I guess I overreacted. Just |
From: Just v. R. <ju...@le...> - 2003-10-24 19:35:35
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Just van Rossum wrote: [an apology] How ironic that this email arrived with a delay of over 48 (!) hours... I'm all for the move, this is unbearable. Just |
From: b.bum <bb...@ma...> - 2003-10-24 19:53:58
Attachments:
smime.p7s
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I'm for the move, as well... If I can do anything to help with the move, let me know. b.bum |
From: Zachery B. <zb...@ur...> - 2003-10-24 20:22:58
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On Oct 24, 2003, at 3:53 PM, b.bum wrote: > I'm for the move, as well... > > If I can do anything to help with the move, let me know. Needed for the move (from off-list chat with Barry Warsaw): - we'll need to get the list subdir (likely lists/pyobjc) with the config.db file, and the archives in mbox format. - since I don't think even the maintainers have ssh access to the servers, and they're not running pipermail, we're going to have to make an sf admin request to get the above. With all that, we can set the list up on python.org. The only thing subscribers would need to do locally (or serverly) is change any filtering rules (procmail, Mail.app, &c) to account for the new List-Id, and change the list address in their address books. I don't have a SF maintainer/developer account, so I'm not sure I can do much with that end of the equation, but I can help do the migration if a project maintainer (Bill, Ronald, or sdm7g?) can get the ball rolling with SF. Zac |
From: David E. <epp...@ic...> - 2003-10-26 01:34:18
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In article <603...@ur...>, Zachery Bir <zb...@ur...> wrote: > With all that, we can set the list up on python.org. > > The only thing subscribers would need to do locally (or serverly) is > change any filtering rules (procmail, Mail.app, &c) to account for the > new List-Id, and change the list address in their address books. I'm reading the list as a newsgroup, gmane.comp.python.pyobjc.devel. I don't see any forms for getting gmane.org to handle the address change automatically, but it looks like it could be done manually by sending an email to re...@gm.... -- David Eppstein http://www.ics.uci.edu/~eppstein/ Univ. of California, Irvine, School of Information & Computer Science |
From: Ronald O. <ous...@ci...> - 2003-10-26 18:59:17
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I've filed an admin request for this at SF (#830606) Ronald |
From: Ronald O. <ous...@ci...> - 2003-10-23 03:06:16
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On 21 okt 2003, at 22:50, Jack Jansen wrote: > Well, one of the things I'd still like to happen at some point in the > future > is to integrate PyObjC into mainline Python. Mainly because that is the > only way (I think) we can smuggle PyObjC (and thereby things like the > next > generation IDE and PackMan and whatever, that are in all likelyhood > going > to be written in PyObjC) into MacOSX 10.4, which is an important step > in > my quest for World Domination. I'd place a difference emphasis: I'd like to see a good set of GUI tools for Python in the next MacOS X and if that means moving PyObjC into mainline Python so be it. > > If this would mean separating out the existing MacPython stuff from the > core Python tree (to integrate it with PyObjC into a new MacPython > subproject > of Python) I think I'd be willing to do that. Being able to build MacPython seperately from the rest of Python would be usefull in itself, especially when there is significant development: this would make it easier to build MacPython-for-Panther. > > The first hurdle to be taken for this to happen would be to get PyObjC > under the right license, and preferably with the PSF as copyright > holder. > Unfortunately this may also be the most difficult step, not only > getting > all the current copyright holders to agree, but also some of the people > who may have become lost in the mist of time... I don't mind changing the license, or assigning copyright to the PSF. Find everyone that owns part of the copyright on PyObjC might be harder. The sources seem to indicate that Lele Gaifax is the only "sleeping" copyright holder, but I don't believe that is the whole truth. Ronald |
From: Ronald O. <ous...@ci...> - 2003-10-23 15:03:27
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On 22 okt 2003, at 9:30, I wrote: > I'd place a difference emphasis: I'd like to see a good set of GUI > tools for Python in the next MacOS X and if that means moving PyObjC > into mainline Python so be it. The advantage of the big delay is that you get to see your own posts with a fresh mind :-). My phrasing might give you the impression that I'm reluctant to move PyObjC into mainline Python, that would be a false impression. Ronald |
From: Bob I. <bo...@re...> - 2003-10-23 21:48:18
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On Oct 23, 2003, at 2:15 AM, Ronald Oussoren wrote: > On 22 okt 2003, at 9:30, I wrote: > >> I'd place a difference emphasis: I'd like to see a good set of GUI >> tools for Python in the next MacOS X and if that means moving PyObjC >> into mainline Python so be it. > > The advantage of the big delay is that you get to see your own posts > with a fresh mind :-). My phrasing might give you the impression that > I'm reluctant to move PyObjC into mainline Python, that would be a > false impression. Yeah, but it makes transatlantic conversations even slower and more cumbersome :) But then again, if everyone uses reply to all it's not really a problem. Personally I wouldn't mind seeing it move, sf.net's mailing lists and anon CVS have had lackluster performance/latency for quite a while. -bob |
From: Lele G. <le...@na...> - 2003-10-23 06:36:02
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>>>>> "Jack" =3D=3D Jack Jansen <Jac...@cw...> writes: Jack> The first hurdle to be taken for this to happen would be to Jack> get PyObjC under the right license, and preferably with the Jack> PSF as copyright holder. Unfortunately this may also be the Jack> most difficult step, not only getting all the current Jack> copyright holders to agree, but also some of the people who Jack> may have become lost in the mist of time... Well, this would be "The PyObjC Return" from the Python core pov :) Consider that it started that way: originally it was Guido the very first man on it, and at that time the module was distribuited with Python (if I my memory does not fool me, it was 1.3 the latest version it appeared), and there was even a SIG for it. It's been a little sad day when Guido decided to drop it, with neither BBum nor me able to avoid that step. But at the time, Apple/NeXT wasn't looking, or did not get the exact potential of the module... As for me, I do not have objections to changing the license, if the goal is to make it standard again. ciao, lele. --=20 nickname: Lele Gaifax | Quando vivr=F2 di quello che ho pensato ieri real: Emanuele Gaifas | comincer=F2 ad aver paura di chi mi copia. email: le...@se... | -- Fortunato Depero, 1929. |
From: Michael H. <mw...@py...> - 2003-10-25 13:15:13
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Bob Ippolito <bo...@re...> writes: > Personally I wouldn't mind seeing it move, sf.net's mailing lists and > anon CVS have had lackluster performance/latency for quite a while. Anon CVS seems to be working well again, FWIW. Cheers, mwh -- Unfortunately, nigh the whole world is now duped into thinking that silly fill-in forms on web pages is the way to do user interfaces. -- Erik Naggum, comp.lang.lisp |