I'm working hard writing documentation...
I plan to release version 3.0.0 within
this month and to bundle with it a rather
comprehensive manual, as it has been
longly and loudly requested by many people.
At the same time, I am discussing with
some people about which browser will be
supported in version 3.1.
We are inclined to drop, starting from the
3.1.x development branch, the support
of the following browsers:
- Netscape 4
- Konqueror 2.1 (maybe 2.2, too)
- Opera 5 and 6
- Internet Explorer 4
Maybe, they could be still supported
at some extent: as an example, w.r.t. the
still preserved for them, and full usability
could be preserved for Internet Explorer 4,
as it would not be so much difficult.
Furthermore, maybe it could be wise to drop
the support for old versions of Mozilla,
e.g. for versions older than 0.9.2 or even
for versions older than 1.0.0.
The rationale behind this intention:
old browsers prevent us from obtaining
a really better menu system.
I feel that, at this point, it is very difficult
to imagine a really better version of PHPLM
without using more advanced features,
that are not available in too old browsers.
Furthermore, PHPLM 3.0.x will forever be
available to anyone who needs to support
such old browsers... hence, I feel that
this "drop" will not cause problems to anyone.
However, if you are averse to this "drop",
please *let me hear your voice* either here,
i.e. on this forum, or writing me an e-mail.
Note: please let me know *clearly*
*why* you are adverse to this choice:
I can change my mind, but only if
I hear *almost* *one* *good* *reason*
to change it :-)
Go on, and drop that pieces of crap! ;-)
be calm, I already know your opinion ;-)
A "ciao" from Abruzzo to Toscana (Tuscany) :-)
Before the code is dropped, can you add in some simple stats to see what browsers are being used by PHPLayersMenu?
For my 1p's worth, over 97% of hits on the 5 sites I have worked on are from IE5.5+ These include retail site and fun sites.
In my mind, the browser wars have been fought and won by Microsoft.
> In my mind, the browser wars have been fought and won by Microsoft.
Microsoft has only proven that is not able to develop
a decent browser.
The choice of browsers to be supported is, absolutely,
driven *not* only by percentuals (BTW, my statistics
are rather different than the ones you are reporting).
BTW, such an argumentation about the so called
"browser war" is not worth my time to reply about,
hence, sorry, but I do not even reply.
P.S.: anyway, reading your message, I guess
that you do not have read the CHANGELOG
of PHPLM 3.1.0...
No problem, you can drop support for these old browsers...
But I have a problem with OmniWeb for Mac OS X browser: my menus remain highlighted when I leave them for an other menu, as if the mouse was still on it. Finally, after a while, all my menus are with the "onMouseOver" color...
Is it possible to correct this? Is my explanation clear enough?
With all other Mac OS X browsers I tried, phplayersmenu work very well!
Thank you for your work and bye.
> No problem, you can drop support for these old browsers...
I have already decided months ago about browsers
to be supported by phplm 3.1.x/3.2.x:
For the future, I am inclined to drop support of Netscape 4,
Konqueror 2.2, Opera 5 and 6, msie 4 in the next development
branch, i.e. in 3.3.0; I am also inclined to postpone
some feature requests after 3.2, to implement some
new features only after the code has been "cleaned"
from the portions and the hacks needed to deal with
old browsers (otherwise, keeping compatibility with "old-style"
templates could be really a mess...).
> But I have a problem with OmniWeb for Mac OS X browser:
> my menus remain highlighted
> Is it possible to correct this? Is my explanation clear enough?
It seems clear enough.
Download phplm 3.1.1 and try it with Safari 1.0/1.1;
you should experience just the same problem
you are reporting, right?
Then download phplm 3.1.3 and try it again with Safari 1.0/1.1;
now you should not experience anymore the mentioned
Now some questions.
*1* which version of OmniWeb are you running?
*2* with OmniWeb, do you have the mentioned problem
with phplm 3.1.1?
*3* with OmniWeb, do you have the mentioned problem
with phplm 3.1.3?
I have found this document:
According to this document, OmniWeb should render the page
just as Safari, as OmniWeb relies just on the same rendering
However, I know that sometimes theory and practice
do not match :-) in fact, Safari uses Khtml and Kjs just as
Konqueror, but Konqueror is not affected by the mentioned
problem with phplm 3.1.1, whereas Safari is; hence I cannot
exclude the possibility that OmniWeb fails where Safari does not.
- check carefully if the mentioned problem is present with
OmniWeb 4.5 + phplm 3.1.3
- check carefully if the mentioned problem is present with
OmniWeb 5.0_latest_beta + phplm 3.1.3
If the problem really persists also on a platform where
Safari is *not* affected by the problem, IMO you have
the following options:
- wait for OmniWeb 5.0 final
- report the problem to the Omniweb developers,
evidencing that Safari is not affected
- make a donation to the phplm project to allow me
to buy a MacOSX workstation[*]
- make a donation to the PearPC project
that maybe one day will be good enough to allow me
to run MacOSX into PearPC for my daily platform
(i.e. for Linux x86)
- wait patiently for the next time I will have the possibility
of performing tests/debugging on a MacOSX workstation[*]
[*] I do not have a MacOSX workstation and
no colleague / friend of mine has; as it is pointed out in
to perform tests on Safari I have used a workstation
owned by the "computer shop" where I have bought my "pc".
Currently, I do not need a PPC for my daily work
and I do not get any income for development of phplm,
hence the purchase of a PPC with *my* money
would not be advisable.
> Download phplm 3.1.1 and try it with Safari 1.0/1.1;
> you should experience just the same problem
> you are reporting, right?
No, phplm 3.1.1 works perfectly with Safari 1.2 (Apple updated to 1.2 now, I don't have the 1.1 anymore...)
> Then download phplm 3.1.3 and try it again with Safari
> now you should not experience anymore the mentioned
> problem, right?
No, with phplm 3.1.3 and Safari 1.2, the submenus don't appear anymore! I can't see them, vertical or horizontal!
> *1* which version of OmniWeb are you running?
Mostly OmniWeb 5.0 beta 7. But I still have a 4.5 too... The two versions appear to work the same with phplm.
> *2* with OmniWeb, do you have the mentioned problem
> with phplm 3.1.1?
Yes. The mentioned problem appears, all the menus and submenus I have passed over remain "onMouseOver" style.
> *3* with OmniWeb, do you have the mentioned problem
> with phplm 3.1.3?
No, the problem here is the same than with Safari and phplm 3.1.3: no submenus appear at all!!!
Conclusion of the tests:
1. phplm 3.1.1 works fine with Safari 1.2
2. phplm 3.1.1 has the mentioned problem (onMouseOver remain) with OmniWeb 4.5 and 5.0 beta
3. phplm 3.1.3 has the same reaction with Safari 1.2 and OmniWeb: no submenus appear!
So, is there a problem with the phplm 3.1.3?
As you mention, I will inform the OmniWeb developpers of the problem with the phplm 3.1.1.
If I were rich enough, I would be very pleased to help you buy a Macintosh, as the Mac OS X is really a very very nice platform. The problem is that I don't have no money at all for the moment... you'll have to wait!
Thank you very much for your detailed answer and for your help!
Good luck with phplm, very good software!
> No, phplm 3.1.1 works perfectly with Safari 1.2
In fact it should, as 3.1.1 works perfectly with any version
of Konqueror! Evidently, they have finally fixed what was
*their* bug, not a bug of the original engine.
> Apple updated to 1.2 now
I know, but the last time I have used Safari was months ago.
> No, with phplm 3.1.3 and Safari 1.2, the submenus don't
> appear anymore! I can't see them, vertical or horizontal!
A R G H ! ! !
Then make these two tests:
1 - With Safari 1.2, try phplm 3.1.1 with the following patch:
(patch 878367, "PHPLM 3.1.1: no more active items remain
evidenced in Safari") and tell me if it works or if you do not see
the submenus anymore
2 - With Safari 1.2, try phplm 3.1.2 and tell me if it works
or if you do not see the submenus anymore
> As you mention, I will inform the OmniWeb developpers
> of the problem with the phplm 3.1.1.
Maybe they are still using the engine of Safari 1.0/1.1
instead of the one of Safari 1.2?
Anyway, please consider that *currently* the demo on
is not exactly phplm 3.1.1, it is phplm 3.1.1 with the patch
mentioned at the beginning of this message.
> No, with phplm 3.1.3 and Safari 1.2, the submenus
> don't appear anymore!
It seems that this has been a false alarm :-)
Just now I am on a MacOSX 10.3.4 laptop with Safari 1.2.2.
I have loaded
and everything works fine.
Everything works fine also with phplm 3.1.1 without
Please check if you have installed phplm 3.1.3 correctly.
If you have installation problems, you can test using
the "static" version of the demo, that is bundled with
the phplm package, i.e. using index-static.html
(this way you can test phplm also on a computer
that does not have PHP installed).
W.r.t. OmniWeb, I have tested with both 4.5 and 5.0beta8
and now I have really understood the problem you have
reported; it seems just a OmniWeb bug, it also occurs
rather randomly, and often it is only a "delay" in
changing the item's color, BTW OmniWeb seems rather
slow with phplm, whereas Safari seems rather fast
I fear that I cannot do anything to workaround this problem;
IMHO, you'd better report this bug just to the OmniWeb
developers, pointing out that, according to the document
I have mentioned, what works with Safari should work
also with OmniWeb, if OmniWeb uses the same
rendering engine used by Safari.
that thanks again Comformatica (Teramo) that has made
this testing session possible :-)
I downloaded the three version 3.1.1 (with patch included), 3.1.2 and 3.1.3 and tried them with Safari 1.2 and OmniWeb 5.0 beta7.
Here are the results:
3.1.1 (with patch included):
- Safari: OK 100%
- OmniWeb: submenus appear, but remain "onMouseOver" style
- Safari: OK 100%
- OmniWeb: OK 98% ! The submenus appear and do not remain "onMouseOver" anymore. The only little "bug": if I pass over a submenu which has itself submenus, then I leave this menu to visit another, and then come back to the first menu I have visited, the last submenu I passed over is highlighted! (Is that clear enough?). But it's working nearly perfectly!
Safari: submenus do not appear
OmniWeb: submenus do not appear
For the mentioned problem, it's phplm 3.1.2 that seems to be the best version!
Question: in case I want to upgrade from 3.1.1 to 3.1.2, where can I find informations on how to do this?
Thank you for your help!
> OmniWeb 5.0 beta7
Not relevant: beta8 is already available, hence please
ignore beta7 and try with beta8, I surely will not consider
old beta versions.
>I downloaded the three version
> Safari: submenus do not appear
> OmniWeb: submenus do not appear
I do not agree, it works for me; according to my tests
(with MacOSX 10.3.4, Safari 1.2.2, OmniWeb 5.0beta8),
3.1.3 behaves just as 3.1.2, both on Safari and on OmniWeb,
hence I am inclined to believe that for some unknown problem
you are not loading the HTML+JS code that you should load.
You are saying that you have *downloaded* the phplm versions;
I have suggested you to load in your browsers the phplm
versions installed on sourceforge, in particular:
BTW, from a final-user point of view, 3.1.3 and 3.1.2 differ
only for separators, and, during my tests, both Safari 1.2.2
and OmniWeb5.0beta8 have rendered separators without
any problem (only msie 5.2.3 seems not able to show them,
but I have found a workaround for this).
> Question: in case I want to upgrade from 3.1.1 to 3.1.2,
> where can I find informations on how to do this?
3.1.x is a development branch; the stable branch is 3.0.x;
obviously, along a development branch, all things can suddenly
be changed, and upgrading is not considered/supported at all.
> 3.1.1 (with patch included):
> - OmniWeb: submenus appear, but remain "onMouseOver" style
> - OmniWeb: OK 98% [... different behaviour...]
This is strange too, as, from this point of view, 3.1.2 is *just*
3.1.1 with patch included (the relevant parts of the resulting
HTML+JS code are *just the same*, as it can be deduced
reading the CHANGELOG).
This confirms my impression that OmniWeb is still rather
"cranky" and that its behaviour about this point is someway
a bit random-like; IMVHO, you could even obtain different
test results closing it and reopening it between testing
of two different phplm versions.
Really sorry for the false alarm... It's a shame on me!
As a beginner, I must have done something wrong...
When I say I "downloaded" phplm, I mean that I downloaded the packages and installed them on my ibook. I have activated the server and php on my computer and can test many php modules like this...
So I just put the whole phplm folder and tried to view the files in my navigator: that's how I got this false alarm and this error of the submenus not loading...
> I have suggested you to load in your browsers the phplm
> versions installed on sourceforge, in particular:
> and, eventually,
Effectively, when I connect to those links, the problem disappears! Everything is fine now!
I don't know why on my computer some files didn't get included well and produced me this error.
So, one more time: very sorry for such a fear!
I hope I won't post anymore false alarms...
I am in favor of dropping support for the older versions of the browsers. I think having one version of PHPLM (3.0.x) which is backward compatible with them is good enough to support them. Just my 2 cents...
> I think having one version of PHPLM (3.0.x) which
> is backward compatible with them is good enough
> to support them.
An 3.2.x will support them completely too: with 3.1.x,
if old-style templates (that are bundled with the package)
are used, everything works correctly also with Netscape 4
I agree, it is just enough; I plan to release 3.2.0 final
within August; then, with 3.3.0, I will completely remove
from 3.2.x *all* the code and *all* the workarounds
needed to support old browsers; this should also ease
implementation of new features; BTW, some submitted
feature requests sound too complicated without dropping
support of old browsers.
>BTW, some submitted feature requests sound too
>complicated without dropping
>support of old browsers.
Then I second my vote to drop the support. Especially if the requested features will have a chance of being implemented :)
I tried today the last OmniWeb 5.1.1 beta 1 available from their website and was happy to see that it's working fine with all my phplayersmenu now!
The bug that we found before seems to have been corrected.
I tried with both phplm 3.1.1 and 3.2.0 and both appear correctly, no more menu that remain highlighted!
Good to know for mac users!