Hi,
in my opinion, installed help is considerable after having some documentation which was revisited by users, heavily used and cover whole Kdenlive (it looks like utopia now). Creating only online accessable documentation will certainly upset some people, but most of today users have good internet connection - so I see it acceptable.

Structure is of wikibook is linearized (I have not been so courage to make it structured) so I attach also non-linearized version which I originally used in my work.

Jan Drábek

The original structure:
 




2010/7/20 Hugh Tebby <hugh.tebby@gmail.com>
Hi,

Considering the installed help, I'm not sure it should be a criteria for choosing the online documentation system. The help could just send users the the online documentation, like what is done in Blender for instance. Having links to online documentation, video tutorials and the forum should be good enough.

The main issue with the documentation is covering the whole app and (most of all) keeping it up to date. A wiki seems to me like the best solution, and the most common. The Blender wiki is quite good I find : http://wiki.blender.org/index.php/Main_Page

We should really decide what structure to give to the user manual and then have one documentation which could be translated to other languages.

Jan, could you provide a translation at least of the titles of your wikibook ? It would help understand and discuss (and hopefully enhance !) the structure.

Also in order to maybe get a stronger community we could have a look at OpenShot, or Krita. OpenShot actually started building a community before the app was available ! (via Facebook for instance). One thing that is great about OpenShot and Krita is that their websites are also development blogs. Krita has a weekly development summary which is a great read, and Openshot has regular updates for enhancements and new features.

Could Kdenlive (or maybe MLT...) also participate in the Google Summer of Code next year ? A couple of full time devs would make quite a difference ! Recently Krita had a fundraising in order to pay one of their devs full time for several months in order to optimize and stabilize the app, and it worked great ! I would certainly be willing to throw in a couple of dozens dozens to get two or three months of full-time Kdenlive development ! (but I suppose that also means finding a developper that has a few months of spare time...)


Anyway, just a few thoughts !


Cheers,
Hugh


2010/7/20 Simon Eugster <simon.eu@gmail.com>

2010/7/19 Yuri Chornoivan <yurchor@ukr.net>:
> написане Mon, 19 Jul 2010 05:13:44 +0300, Dan Dennedy <dan@dennedy.org>:
>
>> On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 2:21 PM, Till Theato <root@ttill.de> wrote:
>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>> Hash: SHA1
>>>
>>> On 07/18/2010 07:19 PM, Jan Drábek wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>> I have just finished putting my Kdenlive manual (in czech) into
>>>> wikibooks (I
>>>> mentioned that I wrote it as my secondary school leaving project in
>>>> forum).
>>>> So now czech manual is complete, visible and searchable from google
>>>> and I am
>>>> going to update it regulary.
>>>> Feel to browse it on address http://cs.wikibooks.org/wiki/Kdenlive
>>>>
>>>> I am wondering if it would be possible to add a visible link to
>>>> kdenlive.orgdocumentation page mentioning this complete manual for
>>>> czech users.l (I did
>>>> this on czech community pages)
>>>>
>>>> Thanks
>>>> Jan Drábek
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>> I don't understand the language but it seems to feature quite a lot.
>>>
>>> There recently have been discussions about moving the documentation back
>>> to a wiki, so maybe we could you use wikibooks for all languages.
>>> I will post this thread in our forum, so hopefully we will be able to
>>> set up a better documentation in a few more languages (or at least in
>>> English, too).
>>>
>>> @jb: Where would you like the documentation to be placed? Our current
>>> Drupal system doesn't seem to be the best solution.
>>>
>>> regards till
>>
>> Keep in mind that some people expect and use installed help as well.
>> Most wiki-based documentation systems do not make it convenient to
>> output XML to support that. For Kino, I enhanced a wiki that uses
>> docbook XML as a backend and could perfectly export to installed help.
>> It also supported multiple languages, but the big downside is that it
>> only supports ISO-8859-1 and not UTF-8! It might be worthwhile for
>> someone leading documentation to look into these this aspect of it. If
>> the options are still not good, then some documentation regardless of
>> installable or not is better than none.
>>
>
> Hi!
>
> In fact, we have similar problems with KDE UserBase. Burkhard Lück created
> the script [1] that can easily convert wiki export data to KDE docbook.
> You can see the exported Parley manual on docs.kde.org [2] (glitches are
> due to docs.kde.org problems, not the problems in docbook itself, locally
> it looks good).
>
> I have just tried it on wikibooks pages (English and Czech in UTF-8) and
> it seems that the script works fine. Thus wiki -> KDE DocBook conversion
> can be done with the minimal efforts.
>
> Best regards,
> Yuri
>
> [1]
> http://websvn.kde.org/branches/work/doc/parley/wiki2docbook.py?revision=1141465&view=markup
> [2] http://docs.kde.org/development/en/kdeedu/parley/index.html

I think a good manual is very important for kdenlive:
1 There are often quite basic questions on the IRC and in the forums.
2 It would make users more aware of kdenlive
3 It would show how many possibilities you have.

To the last point, I for example did not know that you could set
in/out points of clips when they are still in the project list until
there was a bug report in mantis about this.

To point one, recent questions were e.g.: How do I cut two clips at
the same position? How can I render just a piece of the video? What is
the difference between the project profile and the render profile? How
do I get transparent titles?

The current solution was a good attempt, and it would have been great
if it had worked, but unfortunately it did not:
http://kdenlive.org/user-manual

Switching back to wikibooks might have the advantage of a larger user
base that is already registered. But could we still export then?
The second advantage is the Czech manual that already is there.

Would there be big disadvantages of using wikibooks?


Another thought, we need a stronger community. Perhaps we should have
a direct link to the forums in the title navbar on kdenlive.org? (Imho
it is a little bit hidden atm; most users will expect it to be there.)
Having a stronger community would also decrease the waiting time for
answers in the forum, increase the number of tutorials, etc. We need
some community expert :)


Just my thoughts.

Simon

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