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From: Andrew Willmott <awillmott@ma...>  20021106 23:39:49

<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "//W3C//DTD HTML 4.01 Transitional//EN"> <html> <head> <meta httpequiv="ContentType" content="text/html;charset=ISO88591"> <title></title> </head> <body> Sounds like an interesting paper  I wouldn't mind seeing it, and showing it to some people =). I was somewhat bemused reading the original given that the first few paragraphs cite Grassia, who explicitly points out in *his* paper why the exponential map isn't really useful for straight interpolation. Most of the rest seemed full of somewhat convoluted "intuitive" derivations of the exponential map.<br> <br> Also, who stores 4x4 matrices these days, apart for maybe projection matrices?<br> <br> A.<br> <br> (P.S. Not to add to your stress level or anything =).)<br> <br> <br> Casey Muratori wrote:<br> <blockquote type="cite" cite="midPine.WNT.4.44.0211061249480.3640100000@..."> <blockquote type="cite"> <pre wrap="">Lord, that paper is total garbage. Casey Muratori and Jon Blow and I worked on a rebuttal to that paper for a while, but sort of lost focus on it. </pre> </blockquote> <pre wrap=""><!> (runs and hides head in shame...) Yes, that paper is complete poop. The paper approval committee is fired. No written warning, no 1year probabtion  just fired. I will tattoo a big note on my whiteboard to get the paper in order. Apologies everyone.  Casey  This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size! <a class="moztxtlinkfreetext" href="http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgibin/redirect.pl?palm0001en">http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgibin/redirect.pl?palm0001en</a>; _______________________________________________ GDAlgorithmslist mailing list <a class="moztxtlinkabbreviated" href="mailto:GDAlgorithmslist@...">GDAlgorithmslist@...</a> <a class="moztxtlinkfreetext" href="https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithmslist">https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithmslist</a>; Archives: <a class="moztxtlinkfreetext" href="http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188">http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188</a>; </pre> </blockquote> <br> </body> </html> 
From: Casey Muratori <gda@fu...>  20021106 20:52:40

> Lord, that paper is total garbage. Casey Muratori and Jon Blow and I > worked on a rebuttal to that paper for a while, but sort of lost focus > on it. (runs and hides head in shame...) Yes, that paper is complete poop. The paper approval committee is fired. No written warning, no 1year probabtion  just fired. I will tattoo a big note on my whiteboard to get the paper in order. Apologies everyone.  Casey 
From: Casey Muratori <gda@fu...>  20021106 20:49:36

> I thought about maintaining a spline for each hoop vertex, but all the > usefull splines need a point one timeslice in the future, which I don't > have. I guess I could curve fit to the older points, predict the t+1 > point, and use that for the spline, but that feels somewhat redundant. Well, hmm. I don't really work with interpolating curves much (whereby "interpolating" I am referring to the family of curves which _hit_ their control points, as opposed to their control points forming a "hull"), so I'd have to go work it out to see if there's some reason why you can't make noninterpolating curves work without points in the future. BUT, you most certainly can make noninterpolating curves work with no point in the future. In fact all of the splines I use in Granny use only previous points. You often need _knots_ in the future  which is to say that you need to know the time value of the i+1'th or more control points in front of you... but you do NOT need to know their actual position. If you are dropping your "hoops" at regular intervals, then you already know an infinite number of knot values into the future, so this is not a problem.  Casey 
From: Charles Bloom <cbloom@cb...>  20021106 20:07:08

Looks like I better clarify : >Lord, that paper is total garbage. Casey Muratori and Jon Blow and I >worked on a rebuttal to that paper for a while, but sort of lost focus >on it. Basically, for the case of a TRS transform, his technique is equivalent to doing linear interpolation of T & R, and using the *exponential map* for interpolating rotations. There are a number of problems with that. 1. the Exponential Map is generally just a bad way to interpolate rotations. 2. You have to be careful when using the Exponential Map not to take the "long way" around the S4 circle of rotations. The only way he can prevent that is by explicitly handling that, and in fact he gets it wrong. Basically, it's total garbage, and you'd be much better off just breaking up your transform, and using Slerp to interpolate the rotations as quats. Niavely, you might think that he's got a valuable general technique, but in practice, for any group which doesn't have trivial topology (eg. T and S have trivial topology), then you have to handle these problems with the fact that your mapping from the group to a set of reals is not a valid mapping, and you have to handle the boundary conditions. When you handle those conditions, you have to know about the actual global group structure, so you're using specialcase knowledge of the group. Another way to look at it is that he's basically doing group interpolation with the Lie algebra. That's fine for infinitesimal interpolations, but it's total garbage for macroscopic interpolations on groups with nonRiemann topology.  Charles Bloom cbloom@... http://www.cbloom.com 
From: Johnson, James <James.J<ohnson@si...>  20021106 19:55:56

Now you've peak my interest, I'll have to dig that paper out this evening and actually read it. ;) James Original Message From: Charles Bloom [mailto:cbloom@...] Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 11:30 AM To: gdalgorithmslist@... Subject: RE: [Algorithms] Transform interpolation. Lord, that paper is total garbage. Casey Muratori and Jon Blow and I worked on a rebuttal to that paper for a while, but sort of lost focus on it. 
From: Charles Bloom <cbloom@cb...>  20021106 19:29:45

Lord, that paper is total garbage. Casey Muratori and Jon Blow and I worked on a rebuttal to that paper for a while, but sort of lost focus on it. At 09:55 AM 11/6/2002 0800, Johnson, James wrote: >IIRC, there was a paper at this years SIGGRAPH that performed linear >transform interpolation on 4x4 matrices. That's where I'd start. > >James > >Original Message >From: phil_wilkins@... >[mailto:phil_wilkins@...] >Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 7:16 PM >To: gdalgorithmslist@... >Subject: [Algorithms] Transform interpolation. > > > >I have a trail system that drops a hoop of vertices every frame, and >tristrips them to the previous fames hoop. The problem I have is that some >of the animations move so fast that the trail no longer looks smooth, but >bends back sharply on itself. > >I thought about maintaining a spline for each hoop vertex, but all the >usefull splines need a point one timeslice in the future, which I don't >have. I guess I could curve fit to the older points, predict the t+1 point, >and use that for the spline, but that feels somewhat redundant. > >Alternatively, does anyone have any thought on a good way of interpolating >the objectworld transform that get's applied to the hoops? > >Cheers, >Phil > > > > >This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm >Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size! >http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgibin/redirect.pl?palm0001en >_______________________________________________ >GDAlgorithmslist mailing list >GDAlgorithmslist@... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithmslist >Archives: >http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188 > > > >This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm >Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size! >http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgibin/redirect.pl?palm0001en >_______________________________________________ >GDAlgorithmslist mailing list >GDAlgorithmslist@... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithmslist >Archives: >http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188  Charles Bloom cbloom@... http://www.cbloom.com 
From: Mat Noguchi <matthewn@mi...>  20021106 18:27:41

Use a polygon path extrusion algorithm. Should be much easier and prettier. MSN Original Message From: phil_wilkins@... [mailto:phil_wilkins@...]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 7:16 PM To: gdalgorithmslist@... Subject: [Algorithms] Transform interpolation. I have a trail system that drops a hoop of vertices every frame, and tristrips them to the previous fames hoop. The problem I have is that some of the animations move so fast that the trail no longer looks smooth, but bends back sharply on itself. I thought about maintaining a spline for each hoop vertex, but all the usefull splines need a point one timeslice in the future, which I don't have. I guess I could curve fit to the older points, predict the t+1 point, and use that for the spline, but that feels somewhat redundant. Alternatively, does anyone have any thought on a good way of interpolating the objectworld transform that get's applied to the hoops? Cheers, Phil  This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm=20 Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size! http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgibin/redirect.pl?palm0001en _______________________________________________ GDAlgorithmslist mailing list GDAlgorithmslist@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithmslist Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D6188 
From: Johnson, James <James.J<ohnson@si...>  20021106 17:55:14

IIRC, there was a paper at this years SIGGRAPH that performed linear transform interpolation on 4x4 matrices. That's where I'd start. James Original Message From: phil_wilkins@... [mailto:phil_wilkins@...] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 7:16 PM To: gdalgorithmslist@... Subject: [Algorithms] Transform interpolation. I have a trail system that drops a hoop of vertices every frame, and tristrips them to the previous fames hoop. The problem I have is that some of the animations move so fast that the trail no longer looks smooth, but bends back sharply on itself. I thought about maintaining a spline for each hoop vertex, but all the usefull splines need a point one timeslice in the future, which I don't have. I guess I could curve fit to the older points, predict the t+1 point, and use that for the spline, but that feels somewhat redundant. Alternatively, does anyone have any thought on a good way of interpolating the objectworld transform that get's applied to the hoops? Cheers, Phil  This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size! http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgibin/redirect.pl?palm0001en _______________________________________________ GDAlgorithmslist mailing list GDAlgorithmslist@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithmslist Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188 
From: Andy Luedke (Volt) <aandyl@mi...>  20021106 17:07:35

It seems to me that you aren't necessarily going to want the normals of the actual geometric vertices you render with, but rather a tangent vector to the direction of movement at that instant. Am I incorrect in this? Andy Luedke Original Message From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:jare@...]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 06, 2002 3:52 AM To: gdalgorithmslist@... Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Transform interpolation. phil_wilkins@... wrote: > I have a trail system that drops a hoop of vertices every frame, and > tristrips them to the previous fames hoop. The problem I have is that > some of the animations move so fast that the trail no longer looks > smooth, but bends back sharply on itself. > > I thought about maintaining a spline for each hoop vertex, but all the > usefull splines need a point one timeslice in the future, which I > don't have. If the trail vertices come from actual geometry vertices, chances are you can retrieve a normal vector for each vertex. With that normal, you don't need a point in the future in order to generate the spline for the current interval. Javier Arevalo Pyro Studios  This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm=20 Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size! http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgibin/redirect.pl?palm0001en _______________________________________________ GDAlgorithmslist mailing list GDAlgorithmslist@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithmslist Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=3D6188 
From: Hjelstrom, Greg <greg@we...>  20021106 17:02:34

You could try interpolating the translation and converting the rotation to a quaternion and slerping it. (assuming you're not using scaling). Greg Original Message From: phil_wilkins@... [mailto:phil_wilkins@...] Sent: Tuesday, November 05, 2002 7:16 PM To: gdalgorithmslist@... Subject: [Algorithms] Transform interpolation. I have a trail system that drops a hoop of vertices every frame, and tristrips them to the previous fames hoop. The problem I have is that some of the animations move so fast that the trail no longer looks smooth, but bends back sharply on itself. I thought about maintaining a spline for each hoop vertex, but all the usefull splines need a point one timeslice in the future, which I don't have. I guess I could curve fit to the older points, predict the t+1 point, and use that for the spline, but that feels somewhat redundant. Alternatively, does anyone have any thought on a good way of interpolating the objectworld transform that get's applied to the hoops? Cheers, Phil  This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size! http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgibin/redirect.pl?palm0001en _______________________________________________ GDAlgorithmslist mailing list GDAlgorithmslist@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithmslist Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188 
From: Charles Bloom <cbloom@cb...>  20021106 16:47:37

I assume Phil is on the PS2, but you can easily to PNtriangles on VU1 if that "tweaks your bits" At 12:13 PM 11/6/2002 0000, Tom Forsyth wrote: >Yep, if you have normals you can use a variety of splines. One of the >simplest (with the added advantage of hardware support, if that sort of >thing tweaks your bits) are Npatches/PNtriangles. I've implemented >software Npatching for offline tesselation, and it's a pretty easy rout, >and fast. > > >Tom Forsyth  Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP. > >This email is the product of your deranged imagination, >and does not in any way imply existence of the author. > >> Original Message >> From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:jare@...] >> Sent: 06 November 2002 11:52 >> To: gdalgorithmslist@... >> Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Transform interpolation. >> >> >> phil_wilkins@... wrote: >> >> > I have a trail system that drops a hoop of vertices every >> frame, and >> > tristrips them to the previous fames hoop. The problem I >> have is that >> > some of the animations move so fast that the trail no longer looks >> > smooth, but bends back sharply on itself. >> > >> > I thought about maintaining a spline for each hoop vertex, >> but all the >> > usefull splines need a point one timeslice in the future, which I >> > don't have. >> >> If the trail vertices come from actual geometry vertices, >> chances are you >> can retrieve a normal vector for each vertex. With that >> normal, you don't >> need a point in the future in order to generate the spline >> for the current >> interval. >> >> Javier Arevalo >> Pyro Studios > > > > > >This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm >Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size! >http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgibin/redirect.pl?palm0001en >_______________________________________________ >GDAlgorithmslist mailing list >GDAlgorithmslist@... >https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithmslist >Archives: >http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188 >  Charles Bloom cb@... http://www.cbloom.com 
From: <tillack@gm...>  20021106 15:29:41

> Depends what you need this for. On the PS2 I tag the > individual vertices and clip them as seperate triangles. Like > that you don't need to differentiate between triangles and > strips. > > Amit > sure you can do this....but you probably loose already computed information if you "just" do a triangle clipping from your strips data?!!!! but maybe it`s just a point of clever programming technique. heinrich  +++ GMX  Mail, Messaging & more http://www.gmx.net +++ NEU: Mit GMX ins Internet. Rund um die Uhr für 1 ct/ Min. surfen! 
From: Tom Forsyth <tomf@mu...>  20021106 12:14:19

Yep, if you have normals you can use a variety of splines. One of the simplest (with the added advantage of hardware support, if that sort of thing tweaks your bits) are Npatches/PNtriangles. I've implemented software Npatching for offline tesselation, and it's a pretty easy rout, and fast. Tom Forsyth  Muckyfoot bloke and Microsoft MVP. This email is the product of your deranged imagination, and does not in any way imply existence of the author. > Original Message > From: Javier Arevalo [mailto:jare@...] > Sent: 06 November 2002 11:52 > To: gdalgorithmslist@... > Subject: Re: [Algorithms] Transform interpolation. > > > phil_wilkins@... wrote: > > > I have a trail system that drops a hoop of vertices every > frame, and > > tristrips them to the previous fames hoop. The problem I > have is that > > some of the animations move so fast that the trail no longer looks > > smooth, but bends back sharply on itself. > > > > I thought about maintaining a spline for each hoop vertex, > but all the > > usefull splines need a point one timeslice in the future, which I > > don't have. > > If the trail vertices come from actual geometry vertices, > chances are you > can retrieve a normal vector for each vertex. With that > normal, you don't > need a point in the future in order to generate the spline > for the current > interval. > > Javier Arevalo > Pyro Studios 
From: Javier Arevalo <jare@py...>  20021106 11:46:14

phil_wilkins@... wrote: > I have a trail system that drops a hoop of vertices every frame, and > tristrips them to the previous fames hoop. The problem I have is that > some of the animations move so fast that the trail no longer looks > smooth, but bends back sharply on itself. > > I thought about maintaining a spline for each hoop vertex, but all the > usefull splines need a point one timeslice in the future, which I > don't have. If the trail vertices come from actual geometry vertices, chances are you can retrieve a normal vector for each vertex. With that normal, you don't need a point in the future in order to generate the spline for the current interval. Javier Arevalo Pyro Studios 
From: Jamie Fowlston <jamief@qu...>  20021106 10:17:25

catmullrom spline? jamie Original Message From: gdalgorithmslistadmin@... [mailto:gdalgorithmslistadmin@...]On Behalf Of phil_wilkins@... Sent: 06 November 2002 03:16 To: gdalgorithmslist@... Subject: [Algorithms] Transform interpolation. I have a trail system that drops a hoop of vertices every frame, and tristrips them to the previous fames hoop. The problem I have is that some of the animations move so fast that the trail no longer looks smooth, but bends back sharply on itself. I thought about maintaining a spline for each hoop vertex, but all the usefull splines need a point one timeslice in the future, which I don't have. I guess I could curve fit to the older points, predict the t+1 point, and use that for the spline, but that feels somewhat redundant. Alternatively, does anyone have any thought on a good way of interpolating the objectworld transform that get's applied to the hoops? Cheers, Phil  This sf.net email is sponsored by: See the NEW Palm Tungsten T handheld. Power & Color in a compact size! http://ads.sourceforge.net/cgibin/redirect.pl?palm0001en _______________________________________________ GDAlgorithmslist mailing list GDAlgorithmslist@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gdalgorithmslist Archives: http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?forum_id=6188 
From: <phil_wilkins@pl...>  20021106 03:22:31

I have a trail system that drops a hoop of vertices every frame, and tristrips them to the previous fames hoop. The problem I have is that some of the animations move so fast that the trail no longer looks smooth, but bends back sharply on itself. I thought about maintaining a spline for each hoop vertex, but all the usefull splines need a point one timeslice in the future, which I don't have. I guess I could curve fit to the older points, predict the t+1 point, and use that for the spline, but that feels somewhat redundant. Alternatively, does anyone have any thought on a good way of interpolating the objectworld transform that get's applied to the hoops? Cheers, Phil 