freefilm-current

[Freefilm-current] FW: List Conduct

[David B. <dav...@ne...>]

Besides, you and me and Alistair Y. Lewars. 
Who else participated on this list discussion?

Which complaints? From who and when?

I didn't see anyone else complain besides Alistair Y. Lewars.
And if he left its because he wanted to leave way before the Mac OS X V.S.
Linux discussion.

The list of conduct was respected, I don't see any violation.


Thank You!
David Baron
Developer, Network Administrator, Filmmaker


-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Day [mailto:im...@ya...]
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 7:52 AM
To: David Baron
Cc: fre...@li...;
fre...@li...;
fre...@li...;
fre...@li...
Subject: List Conduct

I'm sending this as a seperate e-mail, so that it stands out clearly.

There have been complaints about list conduct, both on and off the list.
This is a problem.

SourceForge kindly volunteers to host this project - we don't pay them to do
so and they don't have to.

Members kindly volunteer to do what they can, when they can, how they can -
we don't pay them to do so and they don't have to.

Speech of any kind (free or otherwise) which damages the relationship
between the project, its members and its hosting sites (it has several) is
NOT OK and is NOT ACCEPTABLE. Anything at all that violates the project
charter will not be tolerated.

Getting fired up about the project, or about a way to achieve it, is not
only fine, it's the only way anything will get done.

Flaming, spamming, verbal abuse and other forms of hostility is a great way
to splinter the project, but if only one person is left to do any
implementing, they might as well have started a project of their own and
left the others in peace.



		
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[Freefilm-current] FW: Project Charter

[David B. <dav...@ne...>]

 The question is, should we still stay associated with the FSF. 

I think their licensing, politics and technical views are too limited for
this type of project.

My recommendation is that we drop the GPL go for a more flexible licensing
scheme.

As for conduct, the discussion I had Alistair Y. Lewars was not flaming but
a discussion.

I find it very important that people can express their opinions, it's true
that personnal insults or threats are not acceptable but having personal
opinions is.

Thank You!
David Baron
Developer, Network Administrator, Filmmaker


-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Day [mailto:im...@ya...]
Sent: Saturday, November 20, 2004 7:30 AM
To: David Baron; 'Alistair Y. Lewars'
Cc: fre...@li...;
fre...@li...;
fre...@li...;
fre...@li...
Subject: Project Charter

It looks as though I'm going to have to be blunt on this one. Simply put,
the Free Film Project has put forward charters to both Sourceforge and the
Free Software Foundation.

Both define the FFP as GNU projects in three seperate ways.

1. The software developed is entirely GPL or GPL compliant

2. The films produced with that software are entirely GPL or GPL compliant

3. The project agreed to adhere to any and all FSF policies governing what
could be considered a GNU project

A project can change charters, but no such discussion has taken place either
between members of (more
importantly) between admins and I sincerely doubt the FSF would agree to
continue recognition of the project if it switched to (primarily)
proprietary OS' and proprietary production software.

There is also a grave question as to whether the proprietary software
concerned would "taint" any license the Free Film Project distributed movies
under. Commercial software often places some restrictions on what can be
done with the output, and that is simply not compatible with the GPL.
Depending on the terms of the commercial license, it may also violate the
SourceForge Terms of Service, as binary output from commercial software is
often deemed to hold IP owned by the commercial software company.


Secondly, there is a matter of list etiquette. Flames, abusive behavior and
inflamatory language are not acceptable on this list and may violate
SourceForge code of conduct policies.

Freedom is often cited, but the reality is that only the US Government is
subject to the First Amendment.
No-one else. Freedom of speech cannot be limited by law (with certain
exceptions) but it can and is limited by the policies of any other
organization, inside or outside the US. SourceForge and the FFP are no
exceptions to this.


I do believe that some of the more "colorful"
personalities (Theo de Raadt of OpenBSD fame is a good
example) produce excellent software. As in the example, OpenBSD is an
amazing product. No doubt about it, and a lot of it has to do with the fire
of the personalities involved. Many successful projects are the products of
what are essentially fusions of a personality cult with fundamentalist
fervor, with the technical skills to back it all up.

This project was, is, and always will be, a cooperative. The mission, the
sense of adventure, comes from this project exploring territory nobody has
ever ventured into before. Explorers are a lot rarer than the
fire-and-brimstone types, and getting them to work together can be like
herding kittens. On the other hand, when it does pan out, they go further
than anyone else. There's no safety, no guarantees, but the rewards are
infinitely greater as a result.

I'm an explorer. This project is a project of exploration. Microsoft may ask
where you want to go today, but I believe if you know that, if you know the
results ahead of time, nobody gains from the going. A TV show doesn't get
better by being repeated. Why expect anything else to?

That is the spirit in which this project was put together, and the spirit in
which the charters were written. Like I said, this can be changed, but it
cannot be unilateral, and it must be recognized that affiliations may be
lost as a consequence.



		
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[Freefilm-current] List Conduct

[Jonathan D. <im...@ya...>]

I'm sending this as a seperate e-mail, so that it
stands out clearly.

There have been complaints about list conduct, both on
and off the list. This is a problem.

SourceForge kindly volunteers to host this project -
we don't pay them to do so and they don't have to.

Members kindly volunteer to do what they can, when
they can, how they can - we don't pay them to do so
and they don't have to.

Speech of any kind (free or otherwise) which damages
the relationship between the project, its members and
its hosting sites (it has several) is NOT OK and is
NOT ACCEPTABLE. Anything at all that violates the
project charter will not be tolerated.

Getting fired up about the project, or about a way to
achieve it, is not only fine, it's the only way
anything will get done.

Flaming, spamming, verbal abuse and other forms of
hostility is a great way to splinter the project, but
if only one person is left to do any implementing,
they might as well have started a project of their own
and left the others in peace.



		
__________________________________ 
Do you Yahoo!? 
Meet the all-new My Yahoo! - Try it today! 
http://my.yahoo.com 
 

[Freefilm-current] Project Charter

[Jonathan D. <im...@ya...>]

It looks as though I'm going to have to be blunt on
this one. Simply put, the Free Film Project has put
forward charters to both Sourceforge and the Free
Software Foundation.

Both define the FFP as GNU projects in three seperate
ways.

1. The software developed is entirely GPL or GPL
compliant

2. The films produced with that software are entirely
GPL or GPL compliant

3. The project agreed to adhere to any and all FSF
policies governing what could be considered a GNU
project

A project can change charters, but no such discussion
has taken place either between members of (more
importantly) between admins and I sincerely doubt the
FSF would agree to continue recognition of the project
if it switched to (primarily) proprietary OS' and
proprietary production software.

There is also a grave question as to whether the
proprietary software concerned would "taint" any
license the Free Film Project distributed movies
under. Commercial software often places some
restrictions on what can be done with the output, and
that is simply not compatible with the GPL. Depending
on the terms of the commercial license, it may also
violate the SourceForge Terms of Service, as binary
output from commercial software is often deemed to
hold IP owned by the commercial software company.


Secondly, there is a matter of list etiquette. Flames,
abusive behavior and inflamatory language are not
acceptable on this list and may violate SourceForge
code of conduct policies.

Freedom is often cited, but the reality is that only
the US Government is subject to the First Amendment.
No-one else. Freedom of speech cannot be limited by
law (with certain exceptions) but it can and is
limited by the policies of any other organization,
inside or outside the US. SourceForge and the FFP are
no exceptions to this.


I do believe that some of the more "colorful"
personalities (Theo de Raadt of OpenBSD fame is a good
example) produce excellent software. As in the
example, OpenBSD is an amazing product. No doubt about
it, and a lot of it has to do with the fire of the
personalities involved. Many successful projects are
the products of what are essentially fusions of a
personality cult with fundamentalist fervor, with the
technical skills to back it all up.

This project was, is, and always will be, a
cooperative. The mission, the sense of adventure,
comes from this project exploring territory nobody has
ever ventured into before. Explorers are a lot rarer
than the fire-and-brimstone types, and getting them to
work together can be like herding kittens. On the
other hand, when it does pan out, they go further than
anyone else. There's no safety, no guarantees, but the
rewards are infinitely greater as a result.

I'm an explorer. This project is a project of
exploration. Microsoft may ask where you want to go
today, but I believe if you know that, if you know the
results ahead of time, nobody gains from the going. A
TV show doesn't get better by being repeated. Why
expect anything else to?

That is the spirit in which this project was put
together, and the spirit in which the charters were
written. Like I said, this can be changed, but it
cannot be unilateral, and it must be recognized that
affiliations may be lost as a consequence.



		
__________________________________ 
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The all-new My Yahoo! - Get yours free! 
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[Freefilm-current] RE: [Freefilm-project] RE: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

[David B. <dav...@ne...>]

"In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they're not. :)"
Nice!

Want I'm looking into is find want is missing on the market of fimmaking
software.

I don't believe anyone can compete with Final Cut Pro but maybe we can
extend it.

It can be very simple tools, like a tool for location scouting or P2P
distribution system.
Maybe just "white papers", a lot of people forget that documentation can be
as useful than software. That's why I'm installing a Wiki on the new Free
Film Project site; freefilmproject.org

If anyone as any suggestions please reply to the list.

Thank You!
David Baron
Developer, Network Administrator, Filmmaker


-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Day [mailto:im...@ya...] 
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 5:05 PM
To: David Baron
Subject: RE: [Freefilm-project] RE: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they're not. :)

Seriously, I completely agree that we should be working on being as
cross-platform as practical, and that we should be looking at Industry
standards.
(That's one of the things that got me so interested in Renderman and NURBS
for developing CGI stuff.)

I tend to work on the idea that you can start with commercial tools, and
migrate away as and when you can produce tools that'll do the same things.
Where I would go with that is to look at writing plugins for something like
Final Draft and Final Cut Pro, but at some point look to develop an Open
Source package that does basically the same stuff, reads/writes the same
files, etc.

There is nothing written that can't be improved upon.
There are only two questions that remain, therefore - do you /want/ to
improve on them, and (if so) do you want to improve on them /now/.

--- David Baron <dav...@ne...> wrote:

> Well, very good in theory, but reality is a little
> different;)
> 
> Anyway, we should have as a goal to develop applications that are 
> cross-platform. But I also believe we should concentrate on developing 
> tools/plug-ins that extends the industry standard applications, Final 
> Draft & Final Cut Pro.



		
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RE: [Freefilm-current] RE: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

[David B. <dav...@ne...>]

The reason I said that FFP should focus on OS X is because FFP should
concentrate there efforts so we can produce some new stuff. The main goal
should be cross-platform development but I believe we need a champion OS and
that's OS X because OS X is used way more by independent filmmakers than
Linux. More chances to attract new users.

I have the right as anyone else on this list to express their opinions. If I
say that I hate a OS then I say it.
Even if I'm the "project admin", I will express my opinions like everyone
else. This is called freedom.

I find very insulting that "Linux people" start whinning and bitching
everytime someones criticize their OS. This is worse than politics. Open
Source doesn't belong to Linux users it belongs to the entire community. 

AND YES, I STILL BELIEVE THAT, LINUX AS NO REAL FUTURE!!!! But that's my
opinion and this is called the """FREE""" Film Project.

Well, I spewed my venom. I'm sorry to see you go, Alistair. Good luck! I
hope you come back to the project even if we disagree. Debating is good for
mind and the project.

Thank You!
David Baron
Developer, Network Administrator, Filmmaker


-----Original Message-----
From: Alistair Y. Lewars [mailto:sl...@pe...] 
Sent: Friday, November 19, 2004 1:05 AM
To: David Baron
Cc: 'Tim Gray'; fre...@li...;
fre...@li...;
fre...@li...;
fre...@li...
Subject: Re: [Freefilm-current] RE: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

David Baron wrote:
> Apple seminar reveals Pixar's switch to OS X, G5s
> http://www.macnn.com/news/23784
>

Well, when this came out earlier this year, this was no big surprise. 
Everyone knew this was going to happen sooner or later since the CEO and 
Chairmen of Pixar Animation Studios is also CEO of Apple Computers -- 
Steve Jobs! http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/jobs.html

Also, they seem to be switching *workstations*; not their render 
farms... which is known to be predominately Linux.
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-983898.html

> Like I told before, if anyone offers anything made for Linux, the Project
> won't refuse it.
> 

Let me get this strait you're willing to take other people's work but 
publicly state you "hate" the OS it works on?!?

If you want to achieve a successful project and attract developers to it 
this is the last thing you would want to say.  FFP shouldn't be beholden 
to one OS.  Matter of fact, you should try get FFP development to port 
to as many OSs as possible (linux, windows, solaris, irix, freebsd, 
etc...) and garner the help from as many developers as possible.  This 
is the "freefilm project" not the "OS X's freefilm project".

The FFP's main goal should be helping others create films through the 
use of free software -- again, not *just* OS X software or *just* Linux 
software or *just* Windows software -- but free software.

> I'm sure no one here, want's to hear OS fanatics debating. There's
millions
> of sites where you can hear Linux people scream about how good there OS is
> and millions for the opposing side.
> 

I do hope I didn't come off as someone who appeared to be fanatic by 
asking to port/develop on an alternative OS.  That is the last thing I 
wanted to do.  I just wanted to make it clear that I (and possibly many 
others on this list), who are interested in getting involved with the 
FFP, would like to see applications ported and developed on Linux as 
well as OS X.  I see nothing fanatical about that.  Matter of fact, I 
love OS X and it is a beautifully OS, but I love my Linux too.

But, speaking of being fanatical, I did find it odd that you proclaimed 
that we (everyone on this list) has agreed that OS X as the "official OS 
for filmmakers."  I don't remember that question ever being posted and 
being decided on?  And I've been on this list for many years now... hmmm...

> This will be my last swing at Linux in this mailing list: I ""personaly""
> think Linux as no future as a desktop/workstation solution. At best, Linux
> is good for building small web servers, embedded devices and clusters.
> There's too much infighting and fanatics pulling Linux in different
> directions, no standards. I hope Linux just dies and goes away and it
will.
> The backlash from the market is coming, people are starting to understand
> that Linux is just another ''Microsoft Windows'' but just cheaper,
> http://newsvac.newsforge.com/newsvac/04/11/02/1626208.shtml. The End for
me!
> 

Wow, this is very unfortunate to see FUD spewed out like this on this 
list.  I wont even try to answer this statement, because any intelligent 
person who follows industry news knows what you just stated is 
shamefully and completely false.

http://www.computer.org/computer/homepage/0202/ec/
http://preview.millimeter.com/mag/video_linux_hollywood/
http://cgw.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Articles&Subsect
ion=Display&ARTICLE_ID=118664
http://linuxtoday.com/high_performance/2003100201126OSBZHE

Well, good luck to you David and the project.  I do hope you change your 
views on this.  But, in the meantime I'll be unsubscribing from this 
list and I'll be putting my development efforts else where.

Thanks.

-Alistair

Re: [Freefilm-current] RE: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

[Alistair Y. L. <sl...@pe...>]

David Baron wrote:
> Apple seminar reveals Pixar's switch to OS X, G5s
> http://www.macnn.com/news/23784 
>

Well, when this came out earlier this year, this was no big surprise. 
Everyone knew this was going to happen sooner or later since the CEO and 
Chairmen of Pixar Animation Studios is also CEO of Apple Computers -- 
Steve Jobs! http://www.apple.com/pr/bios/jobs.html

Also, they seem to be switching *workstations*; not their render 
farms... which is known to be predominately Linux.
http://news.com.com/2100-1001-983898.html

> Like I told before, if anyone offers anything made for Linux, the Project
> won't refuse it.
> 

Let me get this strait you're willing to take other people's work but 
publicly state you "hate" the OS it works on?!?

If you want to achieve a successful project and attract developers to it 
this is the last thing you would want to say.  FFP shouldn't be beholden 
to one OS.  Matter of fact, you should try get FFP development to port 
to as many OSs as possible (linux, windows, solaris, irix, freebsd, 
etc...) and garner the help from as many developers as possible.  This 
is the "freefilm project" not the "OS X's freefilm project".

The FFP's main goal should be helping others create films through the 
use of free software -- again, not *just* OS X software or *just* Linux 
software or *just* Windows software -- but free software.

> I'm sure no one here, want's to hear OS fanatics debating. There's millions
> of sites where you can hear Linux people scream about how good there OS is
> and millions for the opposing side.
> 

I do hope I didn't come off as someone who appeared to be fanatic by 
asking to port/develop on an alternative OS.  That is the last thing I 
wanted to do.  I just wanted to make it clear that I (and possibly many 
others on this list), who are interested in getting involved with the 
FFP, would like to see applications ported and developed on Linux as 
well as OS X.  I see nothing fanatical about that.  Matter of fact, I 
love OS X and it is a beautifully OS, but I love my Linux too.

But, speaking of being fanatical, I did find it odd that you proclaimed 
that we (everyone on this list) has agreed that OS X as the "official OS 
for filmmakers."  I don't remember that question ever being posted and 
being decided on?  And I've been on this list for many years now... hmmm...

> This will be my last swing at Linux in this mailing list: I ""personaly""
> think Linux as no future as a desktop/workstation solution. At best, Linux
> is good for building small web servers, embedded devices and clusters.
> There's too much infighting and fanatics pulling Linux in different
> directions, no standards. I hope Linux just dies and goes away and it will.
> The backlash from the market is coming, people are starting to understand
> that Linux is just another ''Microsoft Windows'' but just cheaper,
> http://newsvac.newsforge.com/newsvac/04/11/02/1626208.shtml. The End for me!
> 

Wow, this is very unfortunate to see FUD spewed out like this on this 
list.  I wont even try to answer this statement, because any intelligent 
person who follows industry news knows what you just stated is 
shamefully and completely false.

http://www.computer.org/computer/homepage/0202/ec/
http://preview.millimeter.com/mag/video_linux_hollywood/
http://cgw.pennnet.com/Articles/Article_Display.cfm?Section=Articles&Subsection=Display&ARTICLE_ID=118664
http://linuxtoday.com/high_performance/2003100201126OSBZHE

Well, good luck to you David and the project.  I do hope you change your 
views on this.  But, in the meantime I'll be unsubscribing from this 
list and I'll be putting my development efforts else where.

Thanks.

-Alistair

[Freefilm-current] RE: [Freefilm-project] RE: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

[David B. <dav...@ne...>]

Well, very good in theory, but reality is a little different;)

Anyway, we should have as a goal to develop applications that are
cross-platform. But I also believe we should concentrate on developing
tools/plug-ins that extends the industry standard applications, Final Draft
& Final Cut Pro.

Thank You!
David Baron
Developer, Network Administrator, Filmmaker


-----Original Message-----
From: Jonathan Day [mailto:im...@ya...] 
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 1:04 AM
To: David Baron; 'Alistair Y. Lewars'
Cc: fre...@li...;
fre...@li...;
fre...@li...;
fre...@li...
Subject: Re: [Freefilm-project] RE: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

Superior tends to be in the eye of the beholder. I've used a fairly decent
percentage of the OS' out there (I'd say somewhere between 20-30) and I've
long since come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as a "bad OS",
merely a bad use for that OS. Even then, it's often a problem of the
application, rather than the OS itself.

(You want a multi-threaded application in MS-DOS?
Sure, no problem. Just attach a TSR to the clock interrupt and have it
load/save the registers accordingly. It'll work, it just won't work well.
Or, indeed at all for applications that aren't known to the TSR. But that's
not the fault of DOS.)

For film-making, it's not at all obvious where Linux is lacking. By
definition, since you can add to any part of the system, if the application
needs XYZ to be supported by X or by the kernel, you can always add XYZ to X
or to the kernel. Since you're writing the applications anyway, it's just
one more piece of code.

But the majority of requirements for film-making don't involve extending X
or the kernel. Scriptwriting is just a specialised form of word-processing.
Story-boarding is little more than a hypercard look-alike with fancier
graphics. Linking the story-board to the script is just a matter of adding
meta-data to mark the deliminators and splitting the editing pane
vertically.

That leaves the actual video and audio data. Here, you'd definitely want to
make use of Linux 2.6's scheduling system and you may very well want to use
one of the real-time extensions (TimeSys, RTAI or RT-Linux being the three
main candidates). Once you are using hard real-time, it really doesn't
matter if you're using Linux or VxWorks. The performance is just about the
same.

As for rendering those CGI effects, I like programs like Blue Moon Rendering
Tools. Good raytracing with radiosity thrown in, and all the benefits of the
Renderman language and NURBS. Again, once you're using a program like that,
the underlying OS is largely irrelevent. NURBS is NURBS is NURBS, no matter
what the OS. The same files will render the same way, regardless.

I don't fault anyone for using OS X. Why should I?
It's a perfectly good OS and does everything it is designed to do very well.
Apple have every reason to be proud of what they achieved with the BSD core,
and Berkeley, likewise, have every reason to be proud of developing the core
to the point that Apple could develop OS X.

Once you get into coding applications, though, the only impact the OS has is
the ease of coding, not in what you can code. (Historical note: A British
mathematician with an interest in cellular biology, Alan Turing,
mathematically proved that all computable devices and systems that met some
very basic requirements could be interchanged with any other computable
device or system. In other words, there is nothing IBM's Blue Gene computer,
or the latest generation of Apple computers, can do that ENIAC couldn't -
given enough time. Functionally, they're exactly the same.)

This is one reason I simply don't understand OS wars and Computer
Architecture wars. Functionally, they really are all the same. The only
difference is in what they make easy and/or fast. If you put in the effort
and have the time to spare, what's left to be "better"?


--- David Baron <dav...@ne...> wrote:

> Personnaly, I hate Linux!
> 
> But that's just me! If anyone offers a application written for Linux 
> we won't refuse it and we appreciate anyones help.
> 
> But I don't know why anyone would want to do anything related to 
> filmmaking with Linux when a superior system like OS X exists.



		
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[Freefilm-current] RE: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

[David B. <dav...@ne...>]

Apple seminar reveals Pixar's switch to OS X, G5s
http://www.macnn.com/news/23784 

Like I told before, if anyone offers anything made for Linux, the Project
won't refuse it.

I'm sure no one here, want's to hear OS fanatics debating. There's millions
of sites where you can hear Linux people scream about how good there OS is
and millions for the opposing side.

I'll be posting a list of new open source software for filmmakers in our new
blog, freefilmproject.org, when it's ready. Some are very interesting:
http://www.celtx.com/


This will be my last swing at Linux in this mailing list: I ""personaly""
think Linux as no future as a desktop/workstation solution. At best, Linux
is good for building small web servers, embedded devices and clusters.
There's too much infighting and fanatics pulling Linux in different
directions, no standards. I hope Linux just dies and goes away and it will.
The backlash from the market is coming, people are starting to understand
that Linux is just another ''Microsoft Windows'' but just cheaper,
http://newsvac.newsforge.com/newsvac/04/11/02/1626208.shtml. The End for me!


Thank You!
David Baron
Developer, Network Administrator, Filmmaker


-----Original Message-----
From: Tim Gray [mailto:tim...@ya...] 
Sent: Thursday, November 18, 2004 6:11 AM
To: David Baron
Subject: RE: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

Me nither, those fools like Spielberg, Pixar and others that use that linux
are nuts.  Who do they think they are using linux to make their tiny home
movies that nobody ever watches.

Besides, who ever heard of movies like titanic, Star Wars I, II, and III, or
any of those talking animal movies with the unknown actor called Eddie
Murphy.

Someone did not tell them that the Mac is what they are supposed to use!


On a serious note, linux is used in more real movies than windows AND Apple
computers.  The real work needs clustering power and tools from the Unix
world.

and they are moving to linux more and more each day.... Being someone inside
the industry I certianly am in the  "know".

Apple computers are nice, but they are not where $30,000,000.00 films are
made.  they are made on AVID, specialized linux tools and Windows.  and
Writers in hollywood use one very important tool called final draft.  If you
can not come up with a Final Draft replacement then you certianly are doomed
as most people will refuse a script in a format other than final draft. And
do not get me started on the lack of good Fast Storyboarding software on
platforms other than windows.

Hope you guys have great luck with your project but cince linux is
intentionally left out of the project now I need to move on to a different
project.

thanks!



--- David Baron <dav...@ne...> wrote:

> Personnaly, I hate Linux!
> 
> But that's just me! If anyone offers a application written for Linux 
> we won't refuse it and we appreciate anyones help.
> 
> But I don't know why anyone would want to do anything related to 
> filmmaking with Linux when a superior system like OS X exists.
> 
> Thank You!
> David Baron
> Developer, Network Administrator, Filmmaker
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alistair Y. Lewars
> [mailto:ali...@ve...]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 10:15 PM
> To: David Baron
> Cc: fre...@li...;
> fre...@li...;
> fre...@li...;
> fre...@li...
> Subject: Re: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)
> 
> David Baron wrote:
> 
> >Also I'm working on getting new software projects
> for the Sourceforge
> >section, all written for Mac OS X, which we can all
> agree now is the
> >official OS for filmmakers.
> >
> >If we you have any comments or suggestions, please
> reply!
> >  
> >
> 
> I personally would like to see development done on Linux as well.  I 
> wouldn't mind helping out on this aspect.
> 
> 
> 
>
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> 


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[Freefilm-current] Re: [Freefilm-project] RE: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

[Jonathan D. <im...@ya...>]

Superior tends to be in the eye of the beholder. I've
used a fairly decent percentage of the OS' out there
(I'd say somewhere between 20-30) and I've long since
come to the conclusion that there's no such thing as a
"bad OS", merely a bad use for that OS. Even then,
it's often a problem of the application, rather than
the OS itself.

(You want a multi-threaded application in MS-DOS?
Sure, no problem. Just attach a TSR to the clock
interrupt and have it load/save the registers
accordingly. It'll work, it just won't work well. Or,
indeed at all for applications that aren't known to
the TSR. But that's not the fault of DOS.)

For film-making, it's not at all obvious where Linux
is lacking. By definition, since you can add to any
part of the system, if the application needs XYZ to be
supported by X or by the kernel, you can always add
XYZ to X or to the kernel. Since you're writing the
applications anyway, it's just one more piece of code.

But the majority of requirements for film-making don't
involve extending X or the kernel. Scriptwriting is
just a specialised form of word-processing.
Story-boarding is little more than a hypercard
look-alike with fancier graphics. Linking the
story-board to the script is just a matter of adding
meta-data to mark the deliminators and splitting the
editing pane vertically.

That leaves the actual video and audio data. Here,
you'd definitely want to make use of Linux 2.6's
scheduling system and you may very well want to use
one of the real-time extensions (TimeSys, RTAI or
RT-Linux being the three main candidates). Once you
are using hard real-time, it really doesn't matter if
you're using Linux or VxWorks. The performance is just
about the same.

As for rendering those CGI effects, I like programs
like Blue Moon Rendering Tools. Good raytracing with
radiosity thrown in, and all the benefits of the
Renderman language and NURBS. Again, once you're using
a program like that, the underlying OS is largely
irrelevent. NURBS is NURBS is NURBS, no matter what
the OS. The same files will render the same way,
regardless.

I don't fault anyone for using OS X. Why should I?
It's a perfectly good OS and does everything it is
designed to do very well. Apple have every reason to
be proud of what they achieved with the BSD core, and
Berkeley, likewise, have every reason to be proud of
developing the core to the point that Apple could
develop OS X.

Once you get into coding applications, though, the
only impact the OS has is the ease of coding, not in
what you can code. (Historical note: A British
mathematician with an interest in cellular biology,
Alan Turing, mathematically proved that all computable
devices and systems that met some very basic
requirements could be interchanged with any other
computable device or system. In other words, there is
nothing IBM's Blue Gene computer, or the latest
generation of Apple computers, can do that ENIAC
couldn't - given enough time. Functionally, they're
exactly the same.)

This is one reason I simply don't understand OS wars
and Computer Architecture wars. Functionally, they
really are all the same. The only difference is in
what they make easy and/or fast. If you put in the
effort and have the time to spare, what's left to be
"better"?


--- David Baron <dav...@ne...> wrote:

> Personnaly, I hate Linux!
> 
> But that's just me! If anyone offers a application
> written for Linux we
> won't refuse it and we appreciate anyones help.
> 
> But I don't know why anyone would want to do
> anything related to filmmaking
> with Linux when a superior system like OS X exists.



		
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[Freefilm-current] RE: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

[David B. <dav...@ne...>]

Personnaly, I hate Linux!

But that's just me! If anyone offers a application written for Linux we
won't refuse it and we appreciate anyones help.

But I don't know why anyone would want to do anything related to filmmaking
with Linux when a superior system like OS X exists.

Thank You!
David Baron
Developer, Network Administrator, Filmmaker

-----Original Message-----
From: Alistair Y. Lewars [mailto:ali...@ve...] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2004 10:15 PM
To: David Baron
Cc: fre...@li...;
fre...@li...;
fre...@li...;
fre...@li...
Subject: Re: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

David Baron wrote:

>Also I'm working on getting new software projects for the Sourceforge 
>section, all written for Mac OS X, which we can all agree now is the 
>official OS for filmmakers.
>
>If we you have any comments or suggestions, please reply!
>  
>

I personally would like to see development done on Linux as well.  I
wouldn't mind helping out on this aspect.

[Freefilm-current] Re: [Freefilm-development] (no subject)

[Alistair Y. L. <ali...@ve...>]

David Baron wrote:

>Also I'm working on getting new software projects for the Sourceforge
>section, all written for Mac OS X, which we can all agree now is the
>official OS for filmmakers.
>
>If we you have any comments or suggestions, please reply!
>  
>

I personally would like to see development done on Linux as well.  I 
wouldn't mind helping out on this aspect.

[Freefilm-current] (no subject)

[David B. <dav...@ne...>]

Hello Everybody,

Last week, I took the liberty to register the freefilmproject.org domain and
rent some server space to host it.

Even if I registered it with my name it's still belongs to the
freefilmproject project and not me.

The reason I took this steps is that I noticed that we are very limited with
the Sourceforge hosting and if the Free Film Project wanted to grow it
needed a real server with PHP/MySQL and etc...

I'm going to install a WiKi, Blog, download page and etc...

The cool thing is that I'm structuring regional sections on the site.
I'm beginning with my city, Montreal QC.

http://montreal.freefilmproject.org/blog/

Anyone that's serious enough can have a subdomain for the there region and
have all the necessay tools already installed.

Every region/chapter will have a "event calendar", blog and a section
reserved on the WiKi.

Also I'm working on getting new software projects for the Sourceforge
section, all written for Mac OS X, which we can all agree now is the
official OS for filmmakers.

If we you have any comments or suggestions, please reply!

More news to come!

Thank You!
David Baron
Developer, Network Administrator, Filmmaker

[Freefilm-current] (no subject)

[David B. <al...@ya...>]

Hello Everybody,

I know that the Free Film Project went silent last
couple months but it doesn't mean I wasn't working on
it.

First off, we have a new banner
http://freefilm.sourceforge.net/rel.html 

Please add in on your sites. Also I'm promoting it to
sites related to filmmaking.

Free Film Project is not just about software, it's
also about community filmmaking. Exchange of ideas and
information.

One idea I have is too start a meta-blog, basically
regrouping blogs from different filmmakers into a
global blog. I'm presently looking into a tool to do
this. 

Also I'm thinking about adding a WiKi to the Free Film
Project page. So we could start making collective
documentation about filmmaking.

We could start making 'White Papers' about digital
filmmaking, 'How To Organize a Film Fest' and etc...

Also we should not forget the meetup.com site.
Please join and host a meetup.com about filmmaking in
your region, this is the best way to start a regional
filmmaker community.

If anybody as any suggestions please post them!

David Baron
Free Film Project





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[Freefilm-current] Re: [spam] [Freefilm-project] What are the best open source video editing-screenplay software?

[Ploum <pl...@mi...>]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

David Baron a =E9crit :
| Hello Ploum,
|
| Thank you for the your suggestions!
|
| If you don't mind, I'm going to put the links to your
| WiKi and http://frimouvy.org in the FFP link site.
|
| David Baron
|
Thx a lot for the link.. I will make frimouvy.org in full XHTML/CSS
soon, don't blame me for the silly design.

Films are in french, but the short "Cyclo" doesn't have any sentence.
I will also reencode all in Matroska and I think about a CC license for
those movies.
For now, I'm working on my next movie under Cinelerra (lot of crashing).

Cinelerra has a lot of features (the best feature is probably "restore
backup after crash" ;) ) but can only read DV footages in MOV.

Since MOV is not a free format, that's a bit silly for me.  I want to
make a complete free movie, from the beginning to the end...  (just for
the principle ;)  Here, I don't mind).

Future Gstreamer based NLE with DV matroska support is my grail...

But all this work is only post-prod work.  What are OS tools for pre-prod=
 ?
I need a script editor (a LaTeX template would be perfect) and a
storyboard editor.  Do you know such software ?


Also, is there a real "free film" in the air on this list ?

Cheers,

Ploum
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Version: GnuPG v1.2.4 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFAhwo7MvYGdShAWjgRAturAJ9yGylqK01Hfk/91ECsnHU43kGbRACbBxhX
b5x/FBwRRMuc0DKeawhehbg=3D
=3Dz/DO
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[Freefilm-current] Re: [spam] [Freefilm-project] What are the best open source video editing-screenplay software?

[David B. <al...@ya...>]

Hello Ploum,

Thank you for the your suggestions!

If you don't mind, I'm going to put the links to your
WiKi and http://frimouvy.org in the FFP link site.

David Baron

--- Ploum <pl...@mi...> wrote: > David Baron
wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Hello everybody,
> > 
> > I have a question for the group!
> > 
> > What are the best open source software related to
> film
> > production you've tried and you've like to see
> > integrated into the Free Film Project?
> > 
> > I'm starting to test some film production software
> > that will be integrated, forked or distributed
> into a
> > FFP distro! And I would like to get some opinions!
> > 
> > Links to potential software!
> > 
> >
>
http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=video+editing&section=projects&Go.x=0&Go.y=0
> > 
> >
>
http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=screenplay&section=projects&Go.x=0&Go.y=0
> > 
> > Thank You!
> > David Baron
> >
> 
> Hello,
> 
> I'm myself intersted by making a free film. (I've
> somes movies on 
> http://frimouvy.org )
> 
> Currently, I've a list of software (in french) on my
> wiki :
> 
>
http://frimouvy.udev.org/wiki/wakka.php?wiki=VideoSousLinux
> 
> 
> Here's the summary :
> 
> STEP 1
> ------
> 
> Importing with dvdgrab or kino. I hope to see soon
> DV video in a 
> Matroska container. (instead of avi or mov. Those
> containers are not free)
> 
> STEP 2
> ------
> 
> Editing. that's the big point. And also the big
> problem.
> Cinelerra has good features but it's difficult to
> use and there's a lot 
> of restrictions (I cannot find a valid format for
> cinelerra)
> Kino is far too simple :(
> KDEnlive seems young
> 
> Well there's a lot of others project and I'm curious
> to hear yours 
> experiences.  (see the wiki for a complete list)
> 
> I expect a lot from a Gstreamer based editor with
> native matroska 
> support. (people interested in the developpement of
> this app can ask me, 
> I will redirect )
> 
> STEP 3
> ------
> 
> Compositing : cinepaint, jahshak seem good.  But I
> don't understand how 
> to use it.
> 
> STEP 4
> ------
> 
> Export : mencoder and avidemux are perfect.  We have
> two free containers 
> : matroska and ogg.  Matroska is really the best
> (IMHO) and must be 
> used.  I recommend Vorbis for the audio.  The video
> is different : can 
> we use Xvid (very good but with somes patents
> problem) or must we wait 
> for Theora ?
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Ploum - Belgium
> 
> 
>
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[Freefilm-current] Re: [spam] [Freefilm-project] What are the best open source video editing-screenplay software?

[Ploum <pl...@mi...>]

David Baron wrote:

> 
> Hello everybody,
> 
> I have a question for the group!
> 
> What are the best open source software related to film
> production you've tried and you've like to see
> integrated into the Free Film Project?
> 
> I'm starting to test some film production software
> that will be integrated, forked or distributed into a
> FFP distro! And I would like to get some opinions!
> 
> Links to potential software!
> 
> http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=video+editing&section=projects&Go.x=0&Go.y=0
> 
> http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=screenplay&section=projects&Go.x=0&Go.y=0
> 
> Thank You!
> David Baron
>

Hello,

I'm myself intersted by making a free film. (I've somes movies on 
http://frimouvy.org )

Currently, I've a list of software (in french) on my wiki :

http://frimouvy.udev.org/wiki/wakka.php?wiki=VideoSousLinux


Here's the summary :

STEP 1
------

Importing with dvdgrab or kino. I hope to see soon DV video in a 
Matroska container. (instead of avi or mov. Those containers are not free)

STEP 2
------

Editing. that's the big point. And also the big problem.
Cinelerra has good features but it's difficult to use and there's a lot 
of restrictions (I cannot find a valid format for cinelerra)
Kino is far too simple :(
KDEnlive seems young

Well there's a lot of others project and I'm curious to hear yours 
experiences.  (see the wiki for a complete list)

I expect a lot from a Gstreamer based editor with native matroska 
support. (people interested in the developpement of this app can ask me, 
I will redirect )

STEP 3
------

Compositing : cinepaint, jahshak seem good.  But I don't understand how 
to use it.

STEP 4
------

Export : mencoder and avidemux are perfect.  We have two free containers 
: matroska and ogg.  Matroska is really the best (IMHO) and must be 
used.  I recommend Vorbis for the audio.  The video is different : can 
we use Xvid (very good but with somes patents problem) or must we wait 
for Theora ?

Cheers,

Ploum - Belgium

[Freefilm-current] What are the best open source video editing-screenplay software?

[David B. <al...@ya...>]

Hello everybody,

I have a question for the group!

What are the best open source software related to film
production you've tried and you've like to see
integrated into the Free Film Project?

I'm starting to test some film production software
that will be integrated, forked or distributed into a
FFP distro! And I would like to get some opinions!

Links to potential software!

http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=video+editing&section=projects&Go.x=0&Go.y=0

http://freshmeat.net/search/?q=screenplay&section=projects&Go.x=0&Go.y=0

Thank You!
David Baron



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[Freefilm-current] Let's get this going...

[Bernhard R. <be...@re...>]

This project has been quite (much too) idle lately...

Everybody interested in helping to get this going - please take a moment
to check out http://www.freefilm.cx/help.shtml for our current task list -
pick something you like to do, and...


I think it's quite important to get a project like this one up and running
- with MPAA getting worse all the time (banning DVDs on Linux, in general
not caring about anything but money), it's about time to show them they
aren't needed and can't do whatever they like, ignoring the needs of
their audience. With just a little bit of work, we're in the perfect
place to do this...

LLaP
bero

[Freefilm-current] Server back up

[Bernhard R. <be...@re...>]

I've just finished restoring everything on the servers - let me know if
there are any problems.

LLaP
bero

[Freefilm-current] Server downtime ahead, don't change anything

[Bernhard R. <be...@re...>]

I'm taking down cvs.freefilm.cx (aka ftp.freefilm.cx aka
www1.freefilm.cx) for maintenance (hardware and software
upgrades) tomorrow.

The backup is already finished; don't make any changes until the server
upgrade is finished (is anyone currently working on anything anyway?), or
you'll have to redo them tomorrow.

LLaP
bero