German-English version
A Logo programming environment for Microsoft Windows
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david_costanzo
What do you think about a German-English version (German explanation, English commands)? Our school currently uses the English version, because the default programming language is English. But, However, it would be easier if the help is in German, because it's easier for younger students to understand.
I would do that if you like it. :)
Originally posted from David Costanzo:
I know about the German version, but there is the complete manual in German. So what I mean is if you want to program in English, but want to have German help this would be useful. For an example, if you are looking for the command "forward" you have to look at "vorwärts" and the examples are of course also in German. So the only difference from the english version is the manual.
That's what I had in mind.
I definitely see the value of having the English commands documented in German and having in-manual examples that use the English commands--perhaps with comments in German.
I don't understand why it's better to add this to the English version of FMSLogo. Why doesn't it also help the younger students to have the UI and error messages in German?
I think having three language choices: "English", "German", and "German-English" for the installation would be confusing, so I see two possibilities.
A) The German version has its manual augmented to cover the English spelling of the commands. On these pages, the examples use the English commands, but the description is in German.
B) The English version shows your proposed German-English manual when the Windows locale is German.
For Plan A, you would need to collaborate with Stephan, as I don't know how he creates his manual.
For Plan B, I'd prefer if you followed the same pattern that I used to create the English version, which is to write it in DocBook. For this, you'd need to checkout the source code and follow enough of the HOWTO-BUILD.TXT to be able to run "gmake" within the manual directory (or at least "gmake website"). Once you've done this, you can attach a ZIP of the XML to this ticket and I'll figure out how to integrate it into the overall build system and how to make the English version of FMSLogo use your German-English manual when the Windows locale is German.
My personal preference is to Plan A, as I think that's the most natural for users. If there's a strong reason not to go with Plan A, then we use Plan B. For you a strong reason might be "because my school will never use the German version". Even so, I'd like to understand why Germans don't want to use the German FMSLogo, even though they do use a German Windows. To me, that's a serious bug in the German FMSLogo. I mean, if Germans aren't using the German FMSLogo, then why even have it? Is it really just because they don't want students to accidentally use German command names? If the German FMSLogo had a way to disable German spellings of command names, would that let your school install it?
Hello,
Yes, you're right. That would confuse.
First, the standard programming language is English. Have you ever seen a translation of Java, for example? I think it is better to program directly in English, because you have to program in English anyway in other languages. And you learn for the future, because there are similar things in other languages are. For an example, "IF" or "PRINT" or whatever. Another fact is that you get the best help and the most information in English. I think having an English Logo is interesting for students at the age of 13 and higher. And in my opinion it is also a bit strange to write something like "vorwärts" into the code. If you were a German, you'd understand it. :D
These are only a few points why to program in English, and not in German. :)
And I think there is a difference between having a German Windows and an English Logo. Would you put your Windows in a different language than your language? Something which you use every day? And this as a student? I don’t think so. For me, the only part of FMSogo, which should be English, is programming. The other may be because of me German.
I think it is good to have a German version! And I also think that the version will be used by students who can't speak English or even just a little bit (9-13 years). For these students it might be easier to use the german version. My teacher told me that she already teached the German version for younger students.
No, where is the sense to have a German version with German manual with German commands when they are disabled? I think it would be good if you could change the language in FMSLogo. So if there is a younger class, our school would simply switch from English (with German-English manual) switch to the complete German version, and vice versa.
Maybe I misunderstood this, but I think that the German version should be German. I think it's not a good idea to fill the already extensive German manual with all the English commands. That would make the manual confusing and much larger. And that would be bad for younger students.
Finally, I think this is the best way:
.
Can you tell me what programs I need? I don’t need TASM and Borland, right? What do you mean with gmake? If I have understood, how to install it, I will translate the manual ASAP.
Thanks for reading, I hope you have understood it now.
Otherwise, just ask.
Greetings from Germany ;-)
Jan
Thanks for the explanation. Let's go with Plan B, then.
Correct. Building the manual can be done with free tools, most of which are also GPL-free.
gmake is a command-line build program which you can install using cygwin. For building the manual, cygwin might be all you need, although you might want to get a graphical "cvs" and get the latest "fop". I noticed that SourceForge lets you download the source code as a tarball, but I think it's better for you to use cvs. I expect that the tarball would use UNIX line endings, which don't always show up in Windows.
Step 1: get the source code. Click on the "Code" link in FMSLogo's navbar and follow the instructions. The manual is in the "logo" module.
Step 2: Read the HOWTO-BUILD.TXT file that's in the "logo" module. This tells you what else you need to download what what parts of the Makefile you need to modify. I wrote this to remind me how to setup a build machine, so it may not make sense to you.
Step 3: On the command line, "cd logo\manual" and run "gmake website". Try to understand the error message, but if you get stuck, I should be able to help make sense of the errors.
As far as I know, no one other than me has ever built FMSLogo, so I don't expect this to be easy for you. However, building the manual is the easiest part, so I'm optimistic that you'll be able to struggle through it.
This request can be closed as I don't longer plan to create this German-English Version.
Closing per request of the original requestor.