Thread: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning.
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From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2013-11-02 13:00:41
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The current message when saving a project is: "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > Export" commands." Strictly speaking this is not correct. You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when they "clean up" after saving a project). Steve |
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From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2013-11-11 14:09:47
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On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > The current message when saving a project is: > > "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). > > Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. > > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > Export" commands." > > > Strictly speaking this is not correct. > You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" > You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". > > Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the > "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when > they "clean up" after saving a project). > > Steve Suggested new wording for the warning: "You are saving an Audacity project as a project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > Export" commands." Steve |
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From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2013-11-11 14:27:49
Attachments:
SaveProjectWarning.patch
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On 11 November 2013 14:09, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: >> The current message when saving a project is: >> >> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >> >> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >> >> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >> Export" commands." >> >> >> Strictly speaking this is not correct. >> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >> >> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >> they "clean up" after saving a project). >> >> Steve > > Suggested new wording for the warning: > > "You are saving an Audacity project as a > project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). > > Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. > > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > Export" commands." > > Steve Patch attached that changes the warning message to: "You are saving an Audacity project as a project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > Export" commands." Steve |
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From: Benjamin D. <bd...@de...> - 2013-11-11 21:37:37
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On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > > The current message when saving a project is: > > > > "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). > > > > Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. > > > > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > > Export" commands." > > > > > > Strictly speaking this is not correct. > > You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" > > You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". > > > > Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the > > "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when > > they "clean up" after saving a project). > > > > Steve > > Suggested new wording for the warning: > > "You are saving an Audacity project as a > project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). > > Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. > > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > Export" commands." +1 -- Benjamin Drung Debian & Ubuntu Developer |
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From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2013-11-12 19:43:31
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On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: > On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: >> > The current message when saving a project is: >> > >> > "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >> > >> > Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >> > >> > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >> > Export" commands." >> > >> > >> > Strictly speaking this is not correct. >> > You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >> > You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >> > >> > Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >> > "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >> > they "clean up" after saving a project). >> > >> > Steve >> >> Suggested new wording for the warning: >> >> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >> >> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >> >> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >> Export" commands." > > +1 > > -- > Benjamin Drung > Debian & Ubuntu Developer Do we have consensus for this enhancement? Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? Steve |
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From: Peter S. <pet...@ya...> - 2013-11-12 20:29:11
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+1 from me Peter Sampson Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 ________________________________ From: Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> Sent: Tuesday, November 12, 2013 7:43 PM Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: > On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: >> > The current message when saving a project is: >> > >> > "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >> > >> > Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >> > >> > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >> > Export" commands." >> > >> > >> > Strictly speaking this is not correct. >> > You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >> > You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >> > >> > Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >> > "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >> > they "clean up" after saving a project). >> > >> > Steve >> >> Suggested new wording for the warning: >> >> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >> >> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >> >> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >> Export" commands." > > +1 > > -- > Benjamin Drung > Debian & Ubuntu Developer Do we have consensus for this enhancement? Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? Steve |
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From: Benjamin D. <bd...@de...> - 2013-11-23 23:15:02
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On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: > > On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > >> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > >> > The current message when saving a project is: > >> > > >> > "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). > >> > > >> > Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. > >> > > >> > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >> > Export" commands." > >> > > >> > > >> > Strictly speaking this is not correct. > >> > You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" > >> > You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". > >> > > >> > Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the > >> > "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when > >> > they "clean up" after saving a project). > >> > > >> > Steve > >> > >> Suggested new wording for the warning: > >> > >> "You are saving an Audacity project as a > >> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). > >> > >> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. > >> > >> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >> Export" commands." > > > > +1 > > > > -- > > Benjamin Drung > > Debian & Ubuntu Developer > > Do we have consensus for this enhancement? > Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against the proposed change, but some want to go even further. -- Benjamin Drung Debian & Ubuntu Developer |
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From: Vaughan J. <va...@au...> - 2013-11-24 03:03:51
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On 11/23/2013 3:14 PM, Benjamin Drung wrote: > On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: >>> On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: >>>>> The current message when saving a project is: >>>>> >>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >>>>> >>>>> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >>>>> >>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>> Export" commands." >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> Strictly speaking this is not correct. >>>>> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >>>>> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >>>>> >>>>> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >>>>> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >>>>> they "clean up" after saving a project). >>>>> >>>>> Steve >>>> >>>> Suggested new wording for the warning: >>>> >>>> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >>>> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >>>> >>>> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >>>> >>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>> Export" commands." >>> >>> +1 >>> >>> -- >>> Benjamin Drung >>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer >> >> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? >> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? > > I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we > have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against > the proposed change, but some want to go even further. Thanks, Benjamin. Yes, you have commit privileges. This is a minor issue, and imo should not be consuming so much attention. But no, not consensus, from me, at least. I think the current one is way too wordy, so adding more is a bad idea. Please don't. Many of us on this list are very verbal, but most people are not. User tests repeatedly show that the more words in an alert/dialog, the less likely user will read. I suggest: "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found 'Save'.) Fwiw, most users never see a file type extension these days, so ".aup" etc is just confusion. - V |
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From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2013-11-24 09:32:48
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| From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> | Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:03:40 -0800 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > On 11/23/2013 3:14 PM, Benjamin Drung wrote: > > On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > >> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: > >>> On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > >>>> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > >>>>> The current message when saving a project is: > >>>>> > >>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). > >>>>> > >>>>> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. > >>>>> > >>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >>>>> Export" commands." > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Strictly speaking this is not correct. > >>>>> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" > >>>>> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". > >>>>> > >>>>> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the > >>>>> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when > >>>>> they "clean up" after saving a project). > >>>>> > >>>>> Steve > >>>> > >>>> Suggested new wording for the warning: > >>>> > >>>> "You are saving an Audacity project as a > >>>> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). > >>>> > >>>> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. > >>>> > >>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >>>> Export" commands." > >>> > >>> +1 > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Benjamin Drung > >>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer > >> > >> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? > >> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? > > > > I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we > > have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against > > the proposed change, but some want to go even further. > > Thanks, Benjamin. Yes, you have commit privileges. This is a minor > issue, and imo should not be consuming so much attention. Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving when they wanted to export. You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save Project (and ignore the warning). We should add the "audio word" IMHO: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . > But no, not consensus, from me, at least. I think the current one is way > too wordy, so adding more is a bad idea. Please don't. > > Many of us on this list are very verbal, but most people are not. User > tests repeatedly show that the more words in an alert/dialog, the less > likely user will read. > > > I suggest: > > "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file > that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." If we need that or something like it to agree, +1. The choice is between more accurate and targeted use of something like the current number of words, or fewer words in the hope that the main message (use Export) may be seen a little more often. > (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found 'Save'.) Don't be too optimistic. Export and Import are way down the menu and obscure words to the uninitiated. Gale > Fwiw, most users never see a file type extension these days, so ".aup" > etc is just confusion. |
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From: Peter S. <pet...@ya...> - 2013-11-24 11:02:26
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Vaughan wrote: >I suggest: > >"'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file >that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." > >(They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found 'Save'.) +1 I am totally with Vaughan on this Audacity projects, native format, are very different from non-native formats - for a start an Export usually involves a mix&render and a flattening of project detail/ Secondly, since we have had "Export" in Audacity from the 0.x series onwards the 1.x and 2.x removing it would be a serious regression. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gale wrote: >Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the >complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving >when they wanted to export. I agree with this too - but this is an argument for a unitary project and not whether or not to lose Export for non-native format files (audio labels etc.). See: http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Unitary_Project ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Gale wrote: >You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save Project (and ignore the warning). We should add the "audio word" IMHO: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . +1 I agree that we should do this as an interim 2.0.6 step on the way to considering (post 2.0.6) the fuller proposal for the File Menu re-organization that has recently been developed on the Wiki. See: http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_File_Menu_Reorganization Thanks, Peter. Peter Sampson Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 From: Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 9:32 AM Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> | Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:03:40 -0800 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > On 11/23/2013 3:14 PM, Benjamin Drung wrote: > > On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > >> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: > >>> On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > >>>> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > >>>>> The current message when saving a project is: > >>>>> > >>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). > >>>>> > >>>>> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. > >>>>> > >>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >>>>> Export" commands." > >>>>> > >>>>> > >>>>> Strictly speaking this is not correct. > >>>>> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" > >>>>> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". > >>>>> > >>>>> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the > >>>>> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when > >>>>> they "clean up" after saving a project). > >>>>> > >>>>> Steve > >>>> > >>>> Suggested new wording for the warning: > >>>> > >>>> "You are saving an Audacity project as a > >>>> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). > >>>> > >>>> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. > >>>> > >>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >>>> Export" commands." > >>> > >>> +1 > >>> > >>> -- > >>> Benjamin Drung > >>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer > >> > >> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? > >> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? > > > > I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we > > have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against > > the proposed change, but some want to go even further. > > Thanks, Benjamin. Yes, you have commit privileges. This is a minor > issue, and imo should not be consuming so much attention. Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving when they wanted to export. You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save Project (and ignore the warning). We should add the "audio word" IMHO: http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . > But no, not consensus, from me, at least. I think the current one is way > too wordy, so adding more is a bad idea. Please don't. > > Many of us on this list are very verbal, but most people are not. User > tests repeatedly show that the more words in an alert/dialog, the less > likely user will read. > > > I suggest: > > "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file > that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." If we need that or something like it to agree, +1. The choice is between more accurate and targeted use of something like the current number of words, or fewer words in the hope that the main message (use Export) may be seen a little more often. > (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found 'Save'.) Don't be too optimistic. Export and Import are way down the menu and obscure words to the uninitiated. Gale > Fwiw, most users never see a file type extension these days, so ".aup" > etc is just confusion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk _______________________________________________ Audacity-quality mailing list Aud...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality |
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From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2013-11-24 12:48:24
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Terrific, it looks like we have consensus on the concise version, though we usually favour "applications", "programs" or "software programs" rather than the abbreviation "apps". +1 for let's do it and move on :-) Steve On 24 November 2013 11:02, Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...> wrote: > > Vaughan wrote: >>I suggest: >> >>"'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file >>that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." >> >>(They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found 'Save'.) > +1 > I am totally with Vaughan on this Audacity projects, native format, are very > different from non-native formats - for a start an Export usually involves > a mix&render and a flattening of project detail/ > > Secondly, since we have had "Export" in Audacity from the 0.x series onwards > the 1.x and 2.x removing it would be a serious regression. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Gale wrote: >>Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the >>complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving >>when they wanted to export. > > I agree with this too - but this is an argument for a unitary project and > not > whether or not to lose Export for non-native format files (audio labels > etc.). > See: http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Unitary_Project > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Gale wrote: >>You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" > following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save > Project (and ignore the warning). > > We should add the "audio word" IMHO: > http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . > > +1 > I agree that we should do this as an interim 2.0.6 step on the way to > considering (post 2.0.6) the fuller proposal for the File Menu > re-organization > that has recently been developed on the Wiki. See: > http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_File_Menu_Reorganization > > Thanks, > Peter. > > Peter Sampson > Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 > Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 > > From: Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> > To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> > Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 9:32 AM > > Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > > > | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> > | Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:03:40 -0800 > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >> On 11/23/2013 3:14 PM, Benjamin Drung wrote: >> > On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >> >> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: >> >>> On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >> >>>> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>>> The current message when saving a project is: >> >>>>> >> >>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >> >>>>> Export" commands." >> >>>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Strictly speaking this is not correct. >> >>>>> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >> >>>>> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >> >>>>> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >> >>>>> they "clean up" after saving a project). >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Steve >> >>>> >> >>>> Suggested new wording for the warning: >> >>>> >> >>>> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >> >>>> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >> >>>> >> >>>> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >> >>>> >> >>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >> >>>> Export" commands." >> >>> >> >>> +1 >> >>> >> >>> -- >> >>> Benjamin Drung >> >>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer >> >> >> >> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? >> >> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? >> > >> > I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we >> > have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against >> > the proposed change, but some want to go even further. >> >> Thanks, Benjamin. Yes, you have commit privileges. This is a minor >> issue, and imo should not be consuming so much attention. > > Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the > complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving > when they wanted to export. > > You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" > following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save > Project (and ignore the warning). > > We should add the "audio word" IMHO: > http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . > > >> But no, not consensus, from me, at least. I think the current one is way >> too wordy, so adding more is a bad idea. Please don't. >> >> Many of us on this list are very verbal, but most people are not. User >> tests repeatedly show that the more words in an alert/dialog, the less >> likely user will read. >> >> >> I suggest: >> >> "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file >> that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." > > If we need that or something like it to agree, +1. > > The choice is between more accurate and targeted use of something > like the current number of words, or fewer words in the hope that > the main message (use Export) may be seen a little more often. > > >> (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found 'Save'.) > > Don't be too optimistic. Export and Import are way down the menu > and obscure words to the uninitiated. > > > > Gale > > > >> Fwiw, most users never see a file type extension these days, so ".aup" >> etc is just confusion. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription > Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. > Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing > conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription > Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. > Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing > conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > |
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From: Vaughan J. <va...@au...> - 2013-11-25 06:18:47
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Thanks, guys. I think I covered those comments, plus stuff I hope is improvement. - V On 11/24/2013 4:48 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > Terrific, it looks like we have consensus on the concise version, > though we usually favour "applications", "programs" or "software > programs" rather than the abbreviation "apps". > +1 for let's do it and move on :-) > > Steve > > On 24 November 2013 11:02, Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...> wrote: >> >> Vaughan wrote: >>> I suggest: >>> >>> "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file >>> that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." >>> >>> (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found 'Save'.) >> +1 >> I am totally with Vaughan on this Audacity projects, native format, are very >> different from non-native formats - for a start an Export usually involves >> a mix&render and a flattening of project detail/ >> >> Secondly, since we have had "Export" in Audacity from the 0.x series onwards >> the 1.x and 2.x removing it would be a serious regression. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Gale wrote: >>> Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the >>> complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving >>> when they wanted to export. >> >> I agree with this too - but this is an argument for a unitary project and >> not >> whether or not to lose Export for non-native format files (audio labels >> etc.). >> See: http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Unitary_Project >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Gale wrote: >>> You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" >> following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save >> Project (and ignore the warning). >> >> We should add the "audio word" IMHO: >> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . >> >> +1 >> I agree that we should do this as an interim 2.0.6 step on the way to >> considering (post 2.0.6) the fuller proposal for the File Menu >> re-organization >> that has recently been developed on the Wiki. See: >> http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_File_Menu_Reorganization >> >> Thanks, >> Peter. >> >> Peter Sampson >> Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 >> Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 >> >> From: Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> >> To: audacity-quality <aud...@li...> >> Sent: Sunday, November 24, 2013 9:32 AM >> >> Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >> >> >> | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> >> | Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:03:40 -0800 >> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >>> On 11/23/2013 3:14 PM, Benjamin Drung wrote: >>>> On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>>> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: >>>>>> On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>>>>> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> The current message when saving a project is: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Strictly speaking this is not correct. >>>>>>>> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >>>>>>>> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >>>>>>>> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >>>>>>>> they "clean up" after saving a project). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Suggested new wording for the warning: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >>>>>>> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>>> >>>>>> +1 >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Benjamin Drung >>>>>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer >>>>> >>>>> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? >>>>> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? >>>> >>>> I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we >>>> have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against >>>> the proposed change, but some want to go even further. >>> >>> Thanks, Benjamin. Yes, you have commit privileges. This is a minor >>> issue, and imo should not be consuming so much attention. >> >> Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the >> complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving >> when they wanted to export. >> >> You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" >> following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save >> Project (and ignore the warning). >> >> We should add the "audio word" IMHO: >> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . >> >> >>> But no, not consensus, from me, at least. I think the current one is way >>> too wordy, so adding more is a bad idea. Please don't. >>> >>> Many of us on this list are very verbal, but most people are not. User >>> tests repeatedly show that the more words in an alert/dialog, the less >>> likely user will read. >>> >>> >>> I suggest: >>> >>> "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file >>> that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." >> >> If we need that or something like it to agree, +1. >> >> The choice is between more accurate and targeted use of something >> like the current number of words, or fewer words in the hope that >> the main message (use Export) may be seen a little more often. >> >> >>> (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found 'Save'.) >> >> Don't be too optimistic. Export and Import are way down the menu >> and obscure words to the uninitiated. >> >> >> >> Gale >> >> >> >>> Fwiw, most users never see a file type extension these days, so ".aup" >>> etc is just confusion. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription >> Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. >> Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing >> conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> Audacity-quality mailing list >> Aud...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription >> Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. >> Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing >> conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> Audacity-quality mailing list >> Aud...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription > Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. > Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing > conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > |
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From: Vaughan J. <va...@au...> - 2013-11-25 06:03:58
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On 11/24/2013 1:32 AM, Gale Andrews wrote: > > | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> > | Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:03:40 -0800 > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >> On 11/23/2013 3:14 PM, Benjamin Drung wrote: >>> On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: >>>>> On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>>>> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: >>>>>>> The current message when saving a project is: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Strictly speaking this is not correct. >>>>>>> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >>>>>>> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >>>>>>> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >>>>>>> they "clean up" after saving a project). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve >>>>>> >>>>>> Suggested new wording for the warning: >>>>>> >>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >>>>>> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >>>>>> >>>>>> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >>>>>> >>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>> >>>>> +1 >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Benjamin Drung >>>>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer >>>> >>>> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? >>>> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? >>> >>> I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we >>> have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against >>> the proposed change, but some want to go even further. >> >> Thanks, Benjamin. Yes, you have commit privileges. This is a minor >> issue, and imo should not be consuming so much attention. > > Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the > complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving > when they wanted to export. > > You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" > following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save > Project (and ignore the warning). > > We should add the "audio word" IMHO: > http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . Done, Revision: 12965. > > >> But no, not consensus, from me, at least. I think the current one is way >> too wordy, so adding more is a bad idea. Please don't. >> >> Many of us on this list are very verbal, but most people are not. User >> tests repeatedly show that the more words in an alert/dialog, the less >> likely user will read. >> >> >> I suggest: >> >> "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file >> that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." > > If we need that or something like it to agree, +1. > > The choice is between more accurate and targeted use of something > like the current number of words, or fewer words in the hope that > the main message (use Export) may be seen a little more often. > > >> (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found 'Save'.) > > Don't be too optimistic. Export and Import are way down the menu > and obscure words to the uninitiated. Well, much of Audacity's menu ordering has been done by accretion, from different contributors, so could probably use a significant redesign effort. Just to brainstorm for File menu: * 'Edit Metadata...' does not seem more important than 'Export' and 'Import'. So maybe move 'Export' up, maybe even just below 'Save' commands. * And 'Edit Metadata...' is 'Edit', so maybe better belongs in the 'Edit' menu. Should it be part of project, rather than only for exported files? It can be done independent of exporting. * I know that 'Open' actually covers many 'Import' cases, so I think we should further conflate those, and remove 'Import'. * 'Check Dependencies' is pretty darn geeky, surely more than 'Export'. Case can be made it belongs in 'Analyze' menu, certainly not above 'Export' in 'File' menu. * I added a separator (r12966 ) so Chains commands are not with the Export commands. And removed a separator among the Export commands. But really, I think 'Chains' commands should be in 'Edit' menu, because that's what they do. - V > > > > Gale > > >> Fwiw, most users never see a file type extension these days, so ".aup" >> etc is just confusion. > > > |
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From: Peter S. <pet...@ya...> - 2013-11-25 11:51:09
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Vaughan wrote: >But really, I think 'Chains' commands should be in 'Edit' menu, >because that's what they do. +1 I've always thought it would sit better there. ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Vaughan wrote: >I know that 'Open' actually covers many 'Import' cases, so I think we >should further conflate those, and remove 'Import'. -1 You argued yesterday Vaughan for retaining "Export" for non-native formats - which I totally agree with. Accordingly it surely makes sense to retain the "Import" for non-native files. If we were to conflate "Open" and remove "Import" then surely we should, at the same time, conflate "Save" and remove "Export" too - and I know there would be support for that but, personally, I do not think that is the right thing to do. Thanks, Peter. Peter Sampson Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 From: Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> To: aud...@li... Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 6:03 AM Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. On 11/24/2013 1:32 AM, Gale Andrews wrote: > > | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> > | Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:03:40 -0800 > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >> On 11/23/2013 3:14 PM, Benjamin Drung wrote: >>> On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: >>>>> On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>>>> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: >>>>>>> The current message when saving a project is: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Strictly speaking this is not correct. >>>>>>> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >>>>>>> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >>>>>>> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >>>>>>> they "clean up" after saving a project). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Steve >>>>>> >>>>>> Suggested new wording for the warning: >>>>>> >>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >>>>>> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >>>>>> >>>>>> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >>>>>> >>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>> >>>>> +1 >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> Benjamin Drung >>>>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer >>>> >>>> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? >>>> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? >>> >>> I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we >>> have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against >>> the proposed change, but some want to go even further. >> >> Thanks, Benjamin. Yes, you have commit privileges. This is a minor >> issue, and imo should not be consuming so much attention. > > Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the > complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving > when they wanted to export. > > You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" > following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save > Project (and ignore the warning). > > We should add the "audio word" IMHO: > http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . Done, Revision: 12965. > > >> But no, not consensus, from me, at least. I think the current one is way >> too wordy, so adding more is a bad idea. Please don't. >> >> Many of us on this list are very verbal, but most people are not. User >> tests repeatedly show that the more words in an alert/dialog, the less >> likely user will read. >> >> >> I suggest: >> >> "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file >> that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." > > If we need that or something like it to agree, +1. > > The choice is between more accurate and targeted use of something > like the current number of words, or fewer words in the hope that > the main message (use Export) may be seen a little more often. > > >> (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found 'Save'.) > > Don't be too optimistic. Export and Import are way down the menu > and obscure words to the uninitiated. Well, much of Audacity's menu ordering has been done by accretion, from different contributors, so could probably use a significant redesign effort. Just to brainstorm for File menu: * 'Edit Metadata...' does not seem more important than 'Export' and 'Import'. So maybe move 'Export' up, maybe even just below 'Save' commands. * And 'Edit Metadata...' is 'Edit', so maybe better belongs in the 'Edit' menu. Should it be part of project, rather than only for exported files? It can be done independent of exporting. * I know that 'Open' actually covers many 'Import' cases, so I think we should further conflate those, and remove 'Import'. * 'Check Dependencies' is pretty darn geeky, surely more than 'Export'. Case can be made it belongs in 'Analyze' menu, certainly not above 'Export' in 'File' menu. * I added a separator (r12966 ) so Chains commands are not with the Export commands. And removed a separator among the Export commands. But really, I think 'Chains' commands should be in 'Edit' menu, because that's what they do. - V > > > > Gale > > >> Fwiw, most users never see a file type extension these days, so ".aup" >> etc is just confusion. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk _______________________________________________ Audacity-quality mailing list Aud...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality |
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From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2013-11-25 12:32:53
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On 25 November 2013 11:51, Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...> wrote: > Vaughan wrote: >>But really, I think 'Chains' commands should be in 'Edit' menu, >>because that's what they do. > > +1 > > I've always thought it would sit better there. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Vaughan wrote: >>I know that 'Open' actually covers many 'Import' cases, so I think we >>should further conflate those, and remove 'Import'. Appreciating the difference between Audacity projects and audio files is one of the biggest and most common problems that we encounter from new users. I think it is very important that we do as much as possible to clarify the difference. Many Audacity users struggle with even the most basic computer tasks, so it is not safe to assume that will immediately understand the difference between projects and audio files. I think that it is helpful if we can spell it out that there is a difference as clearly as possible. In my opinion, keeping "Import/Export Audio" distinct from "Open/Save Project" helps to spell out that there is a difference. The concept of importing/exporting to/from a project is unfamiliar to many new users, but it is not a "difficult" concept, just unfamiliar. I think it better to make the concept conspicuous rather than trying to hide it. Steve > > -1 > > You argued yesterday Vaughan for retaining "Export" for non-native > formats - which I totally agree with. > > Accordingly it surely makes sense to retain the "Import" for non-native > files. > > If we were to conflate "Open" and remove "Import" then surely we should, > at the same time, conflate "Save" and remove "Export" too - and I know > there would be support for that but, personally, I do not think that is the > right > thing to do. > > Thanks, > Peter. > > > Peter Sampson > Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 > Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 > > From: Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> > To: aud...@li... > Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 6:03 AM > Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > > On 11/24/2013 1:32 AM, Gale Andrews wrote: >> >> | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> >> | Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:03:40 -0800 >> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >>> On 11/23/2013 3:14 PM, Benjamin Drung wrote: >>>> On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>>> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: >>>>>> On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>>>>> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> >>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>> The current message when saving a project is: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Strictly speaking this is not correct. >>>>>>>> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >>>>>>>> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >>>>>>>> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >>>>>>>> they "clean up" after saving a project). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Suggested new wording for the warning: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >>>>>>> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>>> >>>>>> +1 >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> Benjamin Drung >>>>>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer >>>>> >>>>> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? >>>>> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? >>>> >>>> I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we >>>> have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against >>>> the proposed change, but some want to go even further. >>> >>> Thanks, Benjamin. Yes, you have commit privileges. This is a minor >>> issue, and imo should not be consuming so much attention. >> >> Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the >> complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving >> when they wanted to export. >> >> You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" >> following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save >> Project (and ignore the warning). >> >> We should add the "audio word" IMHO: >> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . > > Done, Revision: 12965. > > >> >> >>> But no, not consensus, from me, at least. I think the current one is way >>> too wordy, so adding more is a bad idea. Please don't. >>> >>> Many of us on this list are very verbal, but most people are not. User >>> tests repeatedly show that the more words in an alert/dialog, the less >>> likely user will read. >>> >>> >>> I suggest: >>> >>> "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file >>> that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." >> >> If we need that or something like it to agree, +1. >> >> The choice is between more accurate and targeted use of something >> like the current number of words, or fewer words in the hope that >> the main message (use Export) may be seen a little more often. >> >> >>> (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found >>> 'Save'.) >> >> Don't be too optimistic. Export and Import are way down the menu >> and obscure words to the uninitiated. > > Well, much of Audacity's menu ordering has been done by accretion, from > different contributors, so could probably use a significant redesign > effort. > > Just to brainstorm for File menu: > > * 'Edit Metadata...' does not seem more important than 'Export' and > 'Import'. So maybe move 'Export' up, maybe even just below 'Save' commands. > > * And 'Edit Metadata...' is 'Edit', so maybe better belongs in the > 'Edit' menu. Should it be part of project, rather than only for exported > files? It can be done independent of exporting. > > * I know that 'Open' actually covers many 'Import' cases, so I think we > should further conflate those, and remove 'Import'. > > * 'Check Dependencies' is pretty darn geeky, surely more than 'Export'. > Case can be made it belongs in 'Analyze' menu, certainly not above > 'Export' in 'File' menu. > > * I added a separator (r12966 ) so Chains commands are not with the > Export commands. And removed a separator among the Export commands. But > really, I think 'Chains' commands should be in 'Edit' menu, because > that's what they do. > > > - V > > >> >> >> >> Gale >> >> >>> Fwiw, most users never see a file type extension these days, so ".aup" >>> etc is just confusion. >> >> >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription > Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. > Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing > conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription > Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. > Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing > conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > |
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From: Vaughan J. <va...@au...> - 2013-11-25 20:19:38
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On 11/25/2013 4:32 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > On 25 November 2013 11:51, Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...> wrote: >> Vaughan wrote: >>> But really, I think 'Chains' commands should be in 'Edit' menu, >>> because that's what they do. >> >> +1 >> >> I've always thought it would sit better there. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Vaughan wrote: >>> I know that 'Open' actually covers many 'Import' cases, so I think we >>> should further conflate those, and remove 'Import'. > > Appreciating the difference between Audacity projects and audio files > is one of the biggest and most common problems that we encounter from > new users. I think it is very important that we do as much as possible > to clarify the difference. > > Many Audacity users struggle with even the most basic computer tasks, > so it is not safe to assume that will immediately understand the > difference between projects and audio files. I think that it is > helpful if we can spell it out that there is a difference as clearly > as possible. In my opinion, keeping "Import/Export Audio" distinct > from "Open/Save Project" helps to spell out that there is a > difference. > > The concept of importing/exporting to/from a project is unfamiliar to > many new users, but it is not a "difficult" concept, just unfamiliar. > I think it better to make the concept conspicuous rather than trying > to hide it. Then, as I just responded to Peter, we should remove the ability of 'Open...' to *import* audio files. Again, that conflation was not my choice, I opposed it. It makes the code structure ugly, too. I think it probably contributes to user confusion about the difference between the file types, but I thought it was long accepted, considered a good thing. - V > > Steve > > >> >> -1 >> >> You argued yesterday Vaughan for retaining "Export" for non-native >> formats - which I totally agree with. >> >> Accordingly it surely makes sense to retain the "Import" for non-native >> files. >> >> If we were to conflate "Open" and remove "Import" then surely we should, >> at the same time, conflate "Save" and remove "Export" too - and I know >> there would be support for that but, personally, I do not think that is the >> right >> thing to do. >> >> Thanks, >> Peter. >> >> >> Peter Sampson >> Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 >> Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 >> >> From: Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> >> To: aud...@li... >> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 6:03 AM >> Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >> >> On 11/24/2013 1:32 AM, Gale Andrews wrote: >>> >>> | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> >>> | Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:03:40 -0800 >>> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >>>> On 11/23/2013 3:14 PM, Benjamin Drung wrote: >>>>> On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>>>> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: >>>>>>> On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>>>>>> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> The current message when saving a project is: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Strictly speaking this is not correct. >>>>>>>>> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >>>>>>>>> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >>>>>>>>> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >>>>>>>>> they "clean up" after saving a project). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Suggested new wording for the warning: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >>>>>>>> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> +1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Benjamin Drung >>>>>>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer >>>>>> >>>>>> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? >>>>>> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? >>>>> >>>>> I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we >>>>> have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against >>>>> the proposed change, but some want to go even further. >>>> >>>> Thanks, Benjamin. Yes, you have commit privileges. This is a minor >>>> issue, and imo should not be consuming so much attention. >>> >>> Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the >>> complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving >>> when they wanted to export. >>> >>> You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" >>> following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save >>> Project (and ignore the warning). >>> >>> We should add the "audio word" IMHO: >>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . >> >> Done, Revision: 12965. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> But no, not consensus, from me, at least. I think the current one is way >>>> too wordy, so adding more is a bad idea. Please don't. >>>> >>>> Many of us on this list are very verbal, but most people are not. User >>>> tests repeatedly show that the more words in an alert/dialog, the less >>>> likely user will read. >>>> >>>> >>>> I suggest: >>>> >>>> "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file >>>> that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." >>> >>> If we need that or something like it to agree, +1. >>> >>> The choice is between more accurate and targeted use of something >>> like the current number of words, or fewer words in the hope that >>> the main message (use Export) may be seen a little more often. >>> >>> >>>> (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found >>>> 'Save'.) >>> >>> Don't be too optimistic. Export and Import are way down the menu >>> and obscure words to the uninitiated. >> >> Well, much of Audacity's menu ordering has been done by accretion, from >> different contributors, so could probably use a significant redesign >> effort. >> >> Just to brainstorm for File menu: >> >> * 'Edit Metadata...' does not seem more important than 'Export' and >> 'Import'. So maybe move 'Export' up, maybe even just below 'Save' commands. >> >> * And 'Edit Metadata...' is 'Edit', so maybe better belongs in the >> 'Edit' menu. Should it be part of project, rather than only for exported >> files? It can be done independent of exporting. >> >> * I know that 'Open' actually covers many 'Import' cases, so I think we >> should further conflate those, and remove 'Import'. >> >> * 'Check Dependencies' is pretty darn geeky, surely more than 'Export'. >> Case can be made it belongs in 'Analyze' menu, certainly not above >> 'Export' in 'File' menu. >> >> * I added a separator (r12966 ) so Chains commands are not with the >> Export commands. And removed a separator among the Export commands. But >> really, I think 'Chains' commands should be in 'Edit' menu, because >> that's what they do. >> >> >> - V >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Gale >>> >>> >>>> Fwiw, most users never see a file type extension these days, so ".aup" >>>> etc is just confusion. >>> >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription >> Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. >> Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing >> conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> Audacity-quality mailing list >> Aud...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription >> Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. >> Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing >> conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> Audacity-quality mailing list >> Aud...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription > Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. > Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing > conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > |
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From: Peter S. <pet...@ya...> - 2013-11-25 23:17:15
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Vaughan wrote: >Then, as I just responded to Peter, we should remove the ability of >'Open...' to *import* audio files. Again, that conflation was not my >choice, I opposed it. It makes the code structure ugly, too. I think it >probably contributes to user confusion about the difference between the >file types, but I thought it was long accepted, considered a good thing +1 Indeed, the following has been a long-standing statement of intent to which consensus had been arrived at a while ago. It sat for a couple of years in the http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Menu_Reorganisation but recently the File Menu content was spun off into http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_File_Menu_Reorganization following recent extensive discussions among the forum elves on the forum. It stated: '"Open' will be renamed 'Open Project' and ONLY open an Audacity project. If you try to open a WAV file it will tell you about projects and tell you to import instead. This will help reduce the risk of users thinking they are genuinely opening and working on a WAV file directly. " Steve and I are both firmly of the opinion that Open and Save should be reserved for native format i.e. Audacity Projects - and that Import and Export should be the reserve of non-native formats: audio, labels etc. And the reason for us holding that opinion is to maintain clarity of differentiation between native and non-native formats - precisely to obviate the "user confusion" of which you speak Vaughan. Thanks, Peter. Peter Sampson Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 From: Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> To: aud...@li... Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 8:19 PM Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. On 11/25/2013 4:32 AM, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > On 25 November 2013 11:51, Peter Sampson <pet...@ya...> wrote: >> Vaughan wrote: >>> But really, I think 'Chains' commands should be in 'Edit' menu, >>> because that's what they do. >> >> +1 >> >> I've always thought it would sit better there. >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> >> Vaughan wrote: >>> I know that 'Open' actually covers many 'Import' cases, so I think we >>> should further conflate those, and remove 'Import'. > > Appreciating the difference between Audacity projects and audio files > is one of the biggest and most common problems that we encounter from > new users. I think it is very important that we do as much as possible > to clarify the difference. > > Many Audacity users struggle with even the most basic computer tasks, > so it is not safe to assume that will immediately understand the > difference between projects and audio files. I think that it is > helpful if we can spell it out that there is a difference as clearly > as possible. In my opinion, keeping "Import/Export Audio" distinct > from "Open/Save Project" helps to spell out that there is a > difference. > > The concept of importing/exporting to/from a project is unfamiliar to > many new users, but it is not a "difficult" concept, just unfamiliar. > I think it better to make the concept conspicuous rather than trying > to hide it. Then, as I just responded to Peter, we should remove the ability of 'Open...' to *import* audio files. Again, that conflation was not my choice, I opposed it. It makes the code structure ugly, too. I think it probably contributes to user confusion about the difference between the file types, but I thought it was long accepted, considered a good thing. - V > > Steve > > >> >> -1 >> >> You argued yesterday Vaughan for retaining "Export" for non-native >> formats - which I totally agree with. >> >> Accordingly it surely makes sense to retain the "Import" for non-native >> files. >> >> If we were to conflate "Open" and remove "Import" then surely we should, >> at the same time, conflate "Save" and remove "Export" too - and I know >> there would be support for that but, personally, I do not think that is the >> right >> thing to do. >> >> Thanks, >> Peter. >> >> >> Peter Sampson >> Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 >> Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 >> >> From: Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> >> To: aud...@li... >> Sent: Monday, November 25, 2013 6:03 AM >> Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >> >> On 11/24/2013 1:32 AM, Gale Andrews wrote: >>> >>> | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> >>> | Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:03:40 -0800 >>> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >>>> On 11/23/2013 3:14 PM, Benjamin Drung wrote: >>>>> On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>>>> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: >>>>>>> On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >>>>>>>> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> >>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>> The current message when saving a project is: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Strictly speaking this is not correct. >>>>>>>>> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >>>>>>>>> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >>>>>>>>> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >>>>>>>>> they "clean up" after saving a project). >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Steve >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Suggested new wording for the warning: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >>>>>>>> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >>>>>>>> Export" commands." >>>>>>> >>>>>>> +1 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> Benjamin Drung >>>>>>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer >>>>>> >>>>>> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? >>>>>> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? >>>>> >>>>> I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we >>>>> have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against >>>>> the proposed change, but some want to go even further. >>>> >>>> Thanks, Benjamin. Yes, you have commit privileges. This is a minor >>>> issue, and imo should not be consuming so much attention. >>> >>> Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the >>> complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving >>> when they wanted to export. >>> >>> You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" >>> following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save >>> Project (and ignore the warning). >>> >>> We should add the "audio word" IMHO: >>> http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687. >> >> Done, Revision: 12965. >> >> >>> >>> >>>> But no, not consensus, from me, at least. I think the current one is way >>>> too wordy, so adding more is a bad idea. Please don't. >>>> >>>> Many of us on this list are very verbal, but most people are not. User >>>> tests repeatedly show that the more words in an alert/dialog, the less >>>> likely user will read. >>>> >>>> >>>> I suggest: >>>> >>>> "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file >>>> that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." >>> >>> If we need that or something like it to agree, +1. >>> >>> The choice is between more accurate and targeted use of something >>> like the current number of words, or fewer words in the hope that >>> the main message (use Export) may be seen a little more often. >>> >>> >>>> (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found >>>> 'Save'.) >>> >>> Don't be too optimistic. Export and Import are way down the menu >>> and obscure words to the uninitiated. >> >> Well, much of Audacity's menu ordering has been done by accretion, from >> different contributors, so could probably use a significant redesign >> effort. >> >> Just to brainstorm for File menu: >> >> * 'Edit Metadata...' does not seem more important than 'Export' and >> 'Import'. So maybe move 'Export' up, maybe even just below 'Save' commands. >> >> * And 'Edit Metadata...' is 'Edit', so maybe better belongs in the >> 'Edit' menu. Should it be part of project, rather than only for exported >> files? It can be done independent of exporting. >> >> * I know that 'Open' actually covers many 'Import' cases, so I think we >> should further conflate those, and remove 'Import'. >> >> * 'Check Dependencies' is pretty darn geeky, surely more than 'Export'. >> Case can be made it belongs in 'Analyze' menu, certainly not above >> 'Export' in 'File' menu. >> >> * I added a separator (r12966 ) so Chains commands are not with the >> Export commands. And removed a separator among the Export commands. But >> really, I think 'Chains' commands should be in 'Edit' menu, because >> that's what they do. >> >> >> - V >> >> >>> >>> >>> >>> Gale >>> >>> >>>> Fwiw, most users never see a file type extension these days, so ".aup" >>>> etc is just confusion. >>> >>> >>> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription >> Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. >> Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing >> conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> Audacity-quality mailing list >> Aud...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality >> >> >> >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription >> Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. >> Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing >> conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. >> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk >> _______________________________________________ >> Audacity-quality mailing list >> Aud...@li... >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality >> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription > Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. > Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing > conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk _______________________________________________ Audacity-quality mailing list Aud...@li... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality |
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From: Vaughan J. <va...@au...> - 2013-11-25 20:14:21
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On 11/25/2013 3:51 AM, Peter Sampson wrote: > Vaughan wrote: >>But really, I think 'Chains' commands should be in 'Edit' menu, >>because that's what they do. > +1 > I've always thought it would sit better there. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Vaughan wrote: >>I know that 'Open' actually covers many 'Import' cases, so I think we >>should further conflate those, and remove 'Import'. > > -1 > You argued yesterday Vaughan for retaining "Export" for non-native > formats - which I totally agree with. > Accordingly it surely makes sense to retain the "Import" for non-native > files. I didn't make the decision, and it was made long ago, but with the File > Open command, you can open a .aup, or a .wav, .mp3, etc. That conflation has been in place for a long time. So it's already long been the case that 'Import' is unnecessary and redundant -- except for Labels, I think -- certainly 'Import > Audio' is redundant. So if the consensus is that we need to always distinguish audio from project files, we should remove the capability of 'Open' to open audio files. We've been inconsistent about them for a long time -- and I was opposed to it at the time, but acceded. I certainly did not introduce that inconsistency, but thought it has long been accepted/desired. > If we were to conflate "Open" and remove "Import" then surely we should, > at the same time, conflate "Save" and remove "Export" too But there is a difference here. 'Open' any known file doesn't require the user to specify what she really wants, or even understand the difference between project and audio files. To conflate Save Project and Export, all that would need to change is the 'Save as type' control in the current Export File dialog -- but that requires the user be much more savvy, actually know the difference. I'm just saying, the interface has long been inconsistent in whether it distinguishes project and audio files. - V >- and I know > there would be support for that but, personally, I do not think that is > the right > thing to do. > Thanks, > Peter. > Peter Sampson > Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780 > Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299 > > *From:* Vaughan Johnson <va...@au...> > *To:* aud...@li... > *Sent:* Monday, November 25, 2013 6:03 AM > *Subject:* Re: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > > On 11/24/2013 1:32 AM, Gale Andrews wrote: > > > > | From Vaughan Johnson <va...@au... > <mailto:va...@au...>> > > | Sat, 23 Nov 2013 19:03:40 -0800 > > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > >> On 11/23/2013 3:14 PM, Benjamin Drung wrote: > >>> On Di, 2013-11-12 at 19:43 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > >>>> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de... > <mailto:bd...@de...>> wrote: > >>>>> On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > >>>>>> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle > <ste...@gm... <mailto:ste...@gm...>> wrote: > >>>>>>> The current message when saving a project is: > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >>>>>>> Export" commands." > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Strictly speaking this is not correct. > >>>>>>> You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" > >>>>>>> You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the > >>>>>>> "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when > >>>>>>> they "clean up" after saving a project). > >>>>>>> > >>>>>>> Steve > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Suggested new wording for the warning: > >>>>>> > >>>>>> "You are saving an Audacity project as a > >>>>>> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). > >>>>>> > >>>>>> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. > >>>>>> > >>>>>> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >>>>>> Export" commands." > >>>>> > >>>>> +1 > >>>>> > >>>>> -- > >>>>> Benjamin Drung > >>>>> Debian & Ubuntu Developer > >>>> > >>>> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? > >>>> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? > >>> > >>> I can commit this patch without going through bugzilla or -devel. Do we > >>> have a consensus? If I read the comments correctly, nobody is against > >>> the proposed change, but some want to go even further. > >> > >> Thanks, Benjamin. Yes, you have commit privileges. This is a minor > >> issue, and imo should not be consuming so much attention. > > > > Users interfering with AUP and _data folder or thinking the AUP is the > > complete data is a problem, albeit fairly minor compared to users saving > > when they wanted to export. > > > > You know my view that the "Export" word (especially without "audio" > > following it) is the main reason why so many novices go for Save > > Project (and ignore the warning). > > > > We should add the "audio word" IMHO: > > http://bugzilla.audacityteam.org/show_bug.cgi?id=687 . > > Done, Revision: 12965. > > > > > > > >> But no, not consensus, from me, at least. I think the current one is way > >> too wordy, so adding more is a bad idea. Please don't. > >> > >> Many of us on this list are very verbal, but most people are not. User > >> tests repeatedly show that the more words in an alert/dialog, the less > >> likely user will read. > >> > >> > >> I suggest: > >> > >> "'Save' is for an Audacity project, not an audio file. For an audio file > >> that will open in other apps, use 'Export'." > > > > If we need that or something like it to agree, +1. > > > > The choice is between more accurate and targeted use of something > > like the current number of words, or fewer words in the hope that > > the main message (use Export) may be seen a little more often. > > > > > >> (They already know it's in the File menu. That's where they found > 'Save'.) > > > > Don't be too optimistic. Export and Import are way down the menu > > and obscure words to the uninitiated. > > Well, much of Audacity's menu ordering has been done by accretion, from > different contributors, so could probably use a significant redesign > effort. > > Just to brainstorm for File menu: > > * 'Edit Metadata...' does not seem more important than 'Export' and > 'Import'. So maybe move 'Export' up, maybe even just below 'Save' commands. > > * And 'Edit Metadata...' is 'Edit', so maybe better belongs in the > 'Edit' menu. Should it be part of project, rather than only for exported > files? It can be done independent of exporting. > > * I know that 'Open' actually covers many 'Import' cases, so I think we > should further conflate those, and remove 'Import'. > > * 'Check Dependencies' is pretty darn geeky, surely more than 'Export'. > Case can be made it belongs in 'Analyze' menu, certainly not above > 'Export' in 'File' menu. > > * I added a separator (r12966 ) so Chains commands are not with the > Export commands. And removed a separator among the Export commands. But > really, I think 'Chains' commands should be in 'Edit' menu, because > that's what they do. > > > - V > > > > > > > > > > Gale > > > > > >> Fwiw, most users never see a file type extension these days, so ".aup" > >> etc is just confusion. > > > > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription > Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. > Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing > conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up > now. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > <mailto:Aud...@li...> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Shape the Mobile Experience: Free Subscription > Software experts and developers: Be at the forefront of tech innovation. > Intel(R) Software Adrenaline delivers strategic insight and game-changing > conversations that shape the rapidly evolving mobile landscape. Sign up now. > http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=63431311&iu=/4140/ostg.clktrk > > > > _______________________________________________ > Audacity-quality mailing list > Aud...@li... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacity-quality > |
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From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2013-11-13 07:43:51
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| From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> | Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:43:22 +0000 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: > > On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > >> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > >> > The current message when saving a project is: > >> > > >> > "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). > >> > > >> > Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. > >> > > >> > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >> > Export" commands." > >> > > >> > > >> > Strictly speaking this is not correct. > >> > You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" > >> > You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". > >> > > >> > Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the > >> > "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when > >> > they "clean up" after saving a project). > >> > > >> > Steve > >> > >> Suggested new wording for the warning: > >> > >> "You are saving an Audacity project as a > >> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). > >> > >> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. > >> > >> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >> Export" commands." > > > > +1 > > > > -- > > Benjamin Drung > > Debian & Ubuntu Developer > > Do we have consensus for this enhancement? > Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? > > Steve My 2p - I don't object to pointing out the separation of AUP and _data folder. I suggested this a few years ago, prompted by Koz, but he wanted the dialogue title to say "Warning - You are not saving an audio file." to emphasize that part of the problem. That may be too much, but it could say "Warning - You are saving an Audacity Project" then not repeat that in the message text. It may have more impact. Otherwise I would take the message further. "You are saving an Audacity project. Do not move, rename or delete the project's .aup file or _data folder. Then as suggested. Can we be bold and instead fix the cause of the problem Steve mentions - make a unitary file format: http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Unitary_Project ? Not of course for 2.0.6 - but within the next few releases? Gale |
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From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2013-11-13 09:23:58
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On 13 November 2013 07:42, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote: > > | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> > | Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:43:22 +0000 > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: >> > On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >> >> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: >> >> > The current message when saving a project is: >> >> > >> >> > "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >> >> > >> >> > Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >> >> > >> >> > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >> >> > Export" commands." >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Strictly speaking this is not correct. >> >> > You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >> >> > You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >> >> > >> >> > Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >> >> > "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >> >> > they "clean up" after saving a project). >> >> > >> >> > Steve >> >> >> >> Suggested new wording for the warning: >> >> >> >> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >> >> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >> >> >> >> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >> >> >> >> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >> >> Export" commands." >> > >> > +1 >> > >> > -- >> > Benjamin Drung >> > Debian & Ubuntu Developer >> >> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? >> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? > >> >> Steve > > My 2p - I don't object to pointing out the separation of AUP and > _data folder. I suggested this a few years ago, prompted by > Koz, but he wanted the dialogue title to say "Warning - You are not > saving an audio file." to emphasize that part of the problem. > > That may be too much, but it could say "Warning - You are saving > an Audacity Project" then not repeat that in the message text. > It may have more impact. > > Otherwise I would take the message further. > > "You are saving an Audacity project. Do not move, rename or > delete the project's .aup file or _data folder. > > Then as suggested. > > Can we be bold and instead fix the cause of the problem Steve > mentions - make a unitary file format: > http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Unitary_Project ? > > Not of course for 2.0.6 - but within the next few releases? > > > > > Gale The current message is factually incorrect because you are not 'just' saving an AUP file. Many users are unaware that they are also saving a _data folder, so i think that we have to spell that out. -1 on adding "You are not saving an audio file" - if the user reads the message then I think it should be enough to tell them what they are saving without also telling them what they are not saving. -1 on saying "do not move" in this message. If we say that here then we should also say that for compressed projects, but in the manual we say: "this may be useful for sending projects to others." +1 for at least investigating the possibility of a unitary project format, but until such time as we have that, the Save Project warning needs to at least be factually accurate. Steve |
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From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2013-11-14 00:56:37
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| From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> | Wed, 13 Nov 2013 09:23:51 +0000 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > On 13 November 2013 07:42, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote: > > > > | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> > > | Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:43:22 +0000 > > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > >> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: > >> > On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > >> >> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > >> >> > The current message when saving a project is: > >> >> > > >> >> > "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). > >> >> > > >> >> > Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. > >> >> > > >> >> > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >> >> > Export" commands." > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Strictly speaking this is not correct. > >> >> > You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" > >> >> > You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". > >> >> > > >> >> > Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the > >> >> > "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when > >> >> > they "clean up" after saving a project). > >> >> > > >> >> > Steve > >> >> > >> >> Suggested new wording for the warning: > >> >> > >> >> "You are saving an Audacity project as a > >> >> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). > >> >> > >> >> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. > >> >> > >> >> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >> >> Export" commands." > >> > > >> > +1 > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Benjamin Drung > >> > Debian & Ubuntu Developer > >> > >> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? > >> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? > > > >> > >> Steve > > > > My 2p - I don't object to pointing out the separation of AUP and > > _data folder. I suggested this a few years ago, prompted by > > Koz, but he wanted the dialogue title to say "Warning - You are not > > saving an audio file." to emphasize that part of the problem. > > > > That may be too much, but it could say "Warning - You are saving > > an Audacity Project" then not repeat that in the message text. > > It may have more impact. > > > > Otherwise I would take the message further. > > > > "You are saving an Audacity project. Do not move, rename or > > delete the project's .aup file or _data folder. > > > > Then as suggested. > > > > Can we be bold and instead fix the cause of the problem Steve > > mentions - make a unitary file format: > > http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Unitary_Project ? > > > > Not of course for 2.0.6 - but within the next few releases? > > > > > > > > > > Gale > > The current message is factually incorrect because you are not 'just' > saving an AUP file. Many users are unaware that they are also saving > a _data folder, so i think that we have to spell that out. Everyone (so far) agrees with that. > -1 on adding "You are not saving an audio file" - if the user reads > the message But many don't read it, do they? Hence the idea of being specific in the warning title, as we do for the empty project warning. I would much prefer the title said "You are saving an Audacity Project" to Koz's suggestion, but having a title could reduce verbiage in the message itself. Either way, users clearly think they are saving an audio file, and look for that file in the _data folder, complaining that the file is "broken into small pieces". This is just as much (or more of) a problem as users not knowing there is a _data folder. > -1 on saying "do not move" in this message. If we say that here then > we should also say that for compressed projects, but in the manual we > say: "this may be useful for sending projects to others." Only advanced users use compressed projects, but clearly many users do move and rename the AUP and the _data folder, as well as deleting the _data folder. I think your message only guards against deleting the _data folder, and only by implication. Gale > +1 for at least investigating the possibility of a unitary project > format, but until such time as we have that, the Save Project warning > needs to at least be factually accurate. > > > Steve |
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From: Steve t. F. <ste...@gm...> - 2013-11-14 02:23:17
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On 14 November 2013 00:56, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote: > > | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> > | Wed, 13 Nov 2013 09:23:51 +0000 > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >> On 13 November 2013 07:42, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote: >> > >> > | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> >> > | Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:43:22 +0000 >> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. >> >> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: >> >> > On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: >> >> >> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: >> >> >> > The current message when saving a project is: >> >> >> > >> >> >> > "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. >> >> >> > >> >> >> > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >> >> >> > Export" commands." >> >> >> > >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Strictly speaking this is not correct. >> >> >> > You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" >> >> >> > You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the >> >> >> > "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when >> >> >> > they "clean up" after saving a project). >> >> >> > >> >> >> > Steve >> >> >> >> >> >> Suggested new wording for the warning: >> >> >> >> >> >> "You are saving an Audacity project as a >> >> >> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). >> >> >> >> >> >> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. >> >> >> >> >> >> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > >> >> >> Export" commands." >> >> > >> >> > +1 >> >> > >> >> > -- >> >> > Benjamin Drung >> >> > Debian & Ubuntu Developer >> >> >> >> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? >> >> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? >> > >> >> >> >> Steve >> > >> > My 2p - I don't object to pointing out the separation of AUP and >> > _data folder. I suggested this a few years ago, prompted by >> > Koz, but he wanted the dialogue title to say "Warning - You are not >> > saving an audio file." to emphasize that part of the problem. >> > >> > That may be too much, but it could say "Warning - You are saving >> > an Audacity Project" then not repeat that in the message text. >> > It may have more impact. >> > >> > Otherwise I would take the message further. >> > >> > "You are saving an Audacity project. Do not move, rename or >> > delete the project's .aup file or _data folder. >> > >> > Then as suggested. >> > >> > Can we be bold and instead fix the cause of the problem Steve >> > mentions - make a unitary file format: >> > http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Unitary_Project ? >> > >> > Not of course for 2.0.6 - but within the next few releases? >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > Gale >> >> The current message is factually incorrect because you are not 'just' >> saving an AUP file. Many users are unaware that they are also saving >> a _data folder, so i think that we have to spell that out. > > Everyone (so far) agrees with that. > > >> -1 on adding "You are not saving an audio file" - if the user reads >> the message > > But many don't read it, do they? Hence the idea of being specific > in the warning title, as we do for the empty project warning. > I would much prefer the title said "You are saving an Audacity > Project" to Koz's suggestion, but having a title could reduce > verbiage in the message itself. I think that would require either a special dialogue screen being written just for this one message, or modifying the warning dialogue that is used by all warning messages. Either way it's beyond my pay scale and I doubt that I'd ever get such a change past -devel. > > Either way, users clearly think they are saving an audio file, and > look for that file in the _data folder, complaining that the file is > "broken into small pieces". This is just as much (or more of) a > problem as users not knowing there is a _data folder. So we tell them that they are saving an Audacity project as a project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). > > >> -1 on saying "do not move" in this message. If we say that here then >> we should also say that for compressed projects, but in the manual we >> say: "this may be useful for sending projects to others." > > Only advanced users use compressed projects, but clearly many > users do move and rename the AUP and the _data folder, as well > as deleting the _data folder. I think your message only guards > against deleting the _data folder, and only by implication. The message could say more, but it's a law isn't it? The more text there is, the less people read it. I'm done on this subject. I may bump it in a couple of weeks if the long grass starts growing over it. Steve > > > > Gale > > >> +1 for at least investigating the possibility of a unitary project >> format, but until such time as we have that, the Save Project warning >> needs to at least be factually accurate. >> >> >> Steve |
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From: Gale A. <ga...@au...> - 2013-11-14 22:37:03
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| From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> | Thu, 14 Nov 2013 02:23:10 +0000 | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > On 14 November 2013 00:56, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote: > > > > | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> > > | Wed, 13 Nov 2013 09:23:51 +0000 > > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > >> On 13 November 2013 07:42, Gale Andrews <ga...@au...> wrote: > >> > > >> > | From Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> > >> > | Tue, 12 Nov 2013 19:43:22 +0000 > >> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Save Project warning. > >> >> On 11 November 2013 21:37, Benjamin Drung <bd...@de...> wrote: > >> >> > On Mo, 2013-11-11 at 14:09 +0000, Steve the Fiddle wrote: > >> >> >> On 2 November 2013 13:00, Steve the Fiddle <ste...@gm...> wrote: > >> >> >> > The current message when saving a project is: > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > "You are saving an Audacity project file (.aup). > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Saving a project creates a file that only Audacity can open. > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >> >> >> > Export" commands." > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Strictly speaking this is not correct. > >> >> >> > You are not just saving "an Audacity project file (.aup)" > >> >> >> > You are saving "an Audacity project (.aup file and _data folder)". > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Many new users are oblivious to the presence and importance of the > >> >> >> > "_data" folder, which frequently leads to destroyed projects (when > >> >> >> > they "clean up" after saving a project). > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > Steve > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Suggested new wording for the warning: > >> >> >> > >> >> >> "You are saving an Audacity project as a > >> >> >> project file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). > >> >> >> > >> >> >> Only Audacity can open an Audacity project. > >> >> >> > >> >> >> To save an audio file for other programs, use one of the "File > > >> >> >> Export" commands." > >> >> > > >> >> > +1 > >> >> > > >> >> > -- > >> >> > Benjamin Drung > >> >> > Debian & Ubuntu Developer > >> >> > >> >> Do we have consensus for this enhancement? > >> >> Do I need to put it onto bugzilla or can -devel pick it up from here? > >> > > >> >> > >> >> Steve > >> > > >> > My 2p - I don't object to pointing out the separation of AUP and > >> > _data folder. I suggested this a few years ago, prompted by > >> > Koz, but he wanted the dialogue title to say "Warning - You are not > >> > saving an audio file." to emphasize that part of the problem. > >> > > >> > That may be too much, but it could say "Warning - You are saving > >> > an Audacity Project" then not repeat that in the message text. > >> > It may have more impact. > >> > > >> > Otherwise I would take the message further. > >> > > >> > "You are saving an Audacity project. Do not move, rename or > >> > delete the project's .aup file or _data folder. > >> > > >> > Then as suggested. > >> > > >> > Can we be bold and instead fix the cause of the problem Steve > >> > mentions - make a unitary file format: > >> > http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Proposal_Unitary_Project ? > >> > > >> > Not of course for 2.0.6 - but within the next few releases? > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Gale > >> > >> The current message is factually incorrect because you are not 'just' > >> saving an AUP file. Many users are unaware that they are also saving > >> a _data folder, so i think that we have to spell that out. > > > > Everyone (so far) agrees with that. > > > > > >> -1 on adding "You are not saving an audio file" - if the user reads > >> the message > > > > But many don't read it, do they? Hence the idea of being specific > > in the warning title, as we do for the empty project warning. > > I would much prefer the title said "You are saving an Audacity > > Project" to Koz's suggestion, but having a title could reduce > > verbiage in the message itself. > > I think that would require either a special dialogue screen being > written just for this one message I believe so, but beginners saving projects when they should have exported is a significant issue, and we know the current project save dialogue (and previous attempts) do not convey that effectively. > > Either way, users clearly think they are saving an audio file, and > > look for that file in the _data folder, complaining that the file is > > "broken into small pieces". This is just as much (or more of) a > > problem as users not knowing there is a _data folder. > > So we tell them that they are saving an Audacity project as a project > file (.aup) and project data folder (_data). Barely helps on its own, IMO. They think saving is equivalent to what exporting does (which word they don't understand) and see confirmation in the above message that they should look in the _data folder for their audio file. > >> -1 on saying "do not move" in this message. If we say that here then > >> we should also say that for compressed projects, but in the manual we > >> say: "this may be useful for sending projects to others." > > > > Only advanced users use compressed projects, but clearly many > > users do move and rename the AUP and the _data folder, as well > > as deleting the _data folder. I think your message only guards > > against deleting the _data folder, and only by implication. > > The message could say more, but it's a law isn't it? The more text > there is, the less people read it. Well, my suggestion was only three more words. And fewer words in the message, if it had a title. Gale > I'm done on this subject. I may bump it in a couple of weeks if the > long grass starts growing over it. > > > Steve > > > > > > > > > > Gale > > > > > >> +1 for at least investigating the possibility of a unitary project > >> format, but until such time as we have that, the Save Project warning > >> needs to at least be factually accurate. > >> > >> > >> Steve |
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