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From: paul beach <sniffyraven@fa...>  20090628 22:22:59

Sine of a sine does not seem to work, (hzosc (hzosc 11)) If something is moving in a frequency modulated field, it creates quite a commotion. It seems difficult to set up a car engine in Nyquist. http://www.climatehoax.ca/music/engine.mp3 Accelerating frequency, sin((t*55)^1.25+ 2*sin(3*(t*55)^1.25)) Not in rads; starting radian frequency is 55/(2*pi)  paul beach sniffyraven@... 
From: Roger Dannenberg <rbd@cs...>  20090628 22:07:30

Is there a signed version of sndmaxsamp or absolute minimum function for sound? No. You can use sndmaxv and sndminv to remove the negative or positive part of a signal, but it only helps you find the minimum if you know the minimum is negative. Roger 
From: <mszlazak@ao...>  20090628 22:02:25

BTW Edgar, below is what I have so far. If I've got things right to now then I still need to add together normalized energy and normalized edge information. After that would be the automaton part. Learning as I go. Roger D. was very helpful and gave me a couple items that may make this all work with different energy calculations:  "All these measures are related  peak absolute value, average of squared signal, square root of average, etc. For a given type of sound (like speech) peak amplitude is generally a constant factor different from the RMS amplitude, and once you take logs, that constant factor becomes an offset, and whether you work with intensity (amplitude) or power (amplitude squared) is just a scale factor. The "normal" thing is use RMS because RMS squared is average power (energy / time), but it would not be too surprising to use some other related measure. ... log(x) is monotonic: x > y > 0 => log(x) > log(y), so if you want the max(log(x)) you can take log(max(x)), provided x > 0."  (defun cubic (frame windowsize) ??? (let ??? ??? ??? ( ??? ??? ??? (k (/ 27.0 16.0))??? ??? ??? ??? ??? (i (round (* frame (/ 2581.0 (1 windowsize))))) ??? ??? ) ??????????????? (cond ((> i 1290) (setf i 1290)) ((< i 1290) (setf i 1290))) ??? ??? (* k (+ (* i i i) (* 2.0 i i) i)) ??? ) ) (defun energy (s windowsize framesize) ??? (scale 4.34294481 (sndlog (sndavg (mult s s) windowsize framesize OPAVERAGE))) ) (defun normg (g) ??????? (setf neg (scale 1 g)) ??? (setf shift (sndmaxsamp (sndmaxv neg (const 0.0 (sndlength neg 10000000))))) ??? (if (> shift 0.0) (setf g (sum g shift))) ??? (setf gmax (sndmaxsamp g)) ??? (scale (/ 20.0 gmax) (diff g gmax)) ) (defun makefilter (rate) ??? (setf arf (makearray 15)) ??? (dotimes (i 15) ??? ??? ??? (setf frame ( i 7)) ??? ??? ??? (setf (aref arf i) (cubic frame 15)) ??? ) ??? (sndfromarray 0 rate arf) ) (setf g (energy s 240 80)) (setf gnorm (normg g)) (setf f (makefilter (sndsrate g))) (setf edge (convolve g f)) (setf edgenorm (scale (/ 1.0 (sndmaxsamp edge)) edge)) Original Message From: edgarrft@... To: Discussion of developing Nyquist plugins for Audacity <audacitynyquist@...> Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2009 1:05 am Subject: Re: [Audacitynyquist] Is there a signed version of sndmaxsamp or absolute minimum function for sound? > Edgar wrote in a former mail: > You can "invert" a sound (make the negative samples become positive > and vice versa) by using Nyquist "scale" or "mult" with a factor > of "1". > Thank you but this doesn't work. See my response to Roger. Sorry, I was cleaning up my mailbox and hadn't realized that Roger already had answered before. > All my original audio signals s have absolute amplitudes > less than 1 so the energy waveform of s is always negative. I assume you're talking about "normalized float" samples (like used in Nyquist and Audacity) with maxPeak=1.0, minPeak=1.0, what leads to absolute peak values between min=0.0 and max=1.0, so lg(absPeak) is always negative. One of the first things I would try whould look like this: (scale 1 (slog (sabs sound))) > That's a part of the energy normalization they were referring to > and had me scratching my head way the formula gave only zero and > negative values. Who is "they"? Can you tell what document? Is it one of the CCRMA/JOSIII papers? I wasn't able to find out by reading the mails from last week. In Nyquist you often have to "compute around the corner", so maybe we need to rearrange the formula, but therefore I would need the complete context of the original paper. Other ideas: In Nyquist there is e.g. "sndavg", which can compute the RMSpower of blocks of samples.  edgar  _______________________________________________ Audacitynyquist mailing list Audacitynyquist@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacitynyquist 
From: <mszlazak@ao...>  20090628 16:50:11

Hi Edgar. The paper I mentioned is here: http://figment.csee.usf.edu/~sfefilat/data/papers/WeBT5.3.pdf and it cites this paper a lot which gave me clues to what's going on: http://lilabs.com/info/pdf/journal/aspept02.pdf Thanks. Mark. Original Message From: edgarrft@... To: Discussion of developing Nyquist plugins for Audacity <audacitynyquist@...> Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2009 1:05 am Subject: Re: [Audacitynyquist] Is there a signed version of sndmaxsamp or absolute minimum function for sound? > Edgar wrote in a former mail: > You can "invert" a sound (make the negative samples become positive > and vice versa) by using Nyquist "scale" or "mult" with a factor > of "1". > Thank you but this doesn't work. See my response to Roger. Sorry, I was cleaning up my mailbox and hadn't realized that Roger already had answered before. > All my original audio signals s have absolute amplitudes > less than 1 so the energy waveform of s is always negative. I assume you're talking about "normalized float" samples (like used in Nyquist and Audacity) with maxPeak=1.0, minPeak=1.0, what leads to absolute peak values between min=0.0 and max=1.0, so lg(absPeak) is always negative. One of the first things I would try whould look like this: (scale 1 (slog (sabs sound))) > That's a part of the energy normalization they were referring to > and had me scratching my head way the formula gave only zero and > negative values. Who is "they"? Can you tell what document? Is it one of the CCRMA/JOSIII papers? I wasn't able to find out by reading the mails from last week. In Nyquist you often have to "compute around the corner", so maybe we need to rearrange the formula, but therefore I would need the complete context of the original paper. Other ideas: In Nyquist there is e.g. "sndavg", which can compute the RMSpower of blocks of samples.  edgar  _______________________________________________ Audacitynyquist mailing list Audacitynyquist@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacitynyquist 
From: <edgarrft@we...>  20090628 08:07:18

> Edgar wrote in a former mail: > You can "invert" a sound (make the negative samples become positive > and vice versa) by using Nyquist "scale" or "mult" with a factor > of "1". > Thank you but this doesn't work. See my response to Roger. Sorry, I was cleaning up my mailbox and hadn't realized that Roger already had answered before. > All my original audio signals s have absolute amplitudes > less than 1 so the energy waveform of s is always negative. I assume you're talking about "normalized float" samples (like used in Nyquist and Audacity) with maxPeak=1.0, minPeak=1.0, what leads to absolute peak values between min=0.0 and max=1.0, so lg(absPeak) is always negative. One of the first things I would try whould look like this: (scale 1 (slog (sabs sound))) > That's a part of the energy normalization they were referring to > and had me scratching my head way the formula gave only zero and > negative values. Who is "they"? Can you tell what document? Is it one of the CCRMA/JOSIII papers? I wasn't able to find out by reading the mails from last week. In Nyquist you often have to "compute around the corner", so maybe we need to rearrange the formula, but therefore I would need the complete context of the original paper. Other ideas: In Nyquist there is e.g. "sndavg", which can compute the RMSpower of blocks of samples.  edgar 
From: <mszlazak@ao...>  20090628 04:04:55

Thank you but this doesn't work. See my response to Roger. Original Message From: edgarrft@... To: Discussion of developing Nyquist plugins for Audacity <audacitynyquist@...> Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 9:02 pm Subject: Re: [Audacitynyquist] Is there a signed version of sndmaxsamp or absolute minimum function for sound? mszlazak@... schrieb: > SNDMAXSAMP gives the maximum absolute value of a wave. > Is there a signed (not absolute) version of this function? > I'm dealing with waves of only negative valued amplitues so the maximum > amplitude is the one closest to the axis. A absolute minimum function > would work here as well. > You can "invert" a sound (make the negative samples become positive and vice versa) by using Nyquist "scale" or "mult" with a factor of "1".  edgar  _______________________________________________ Audacitynyquist mailing list Audacitynyquist@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacitynyquist 
From: <edgarrft@we...>  20090628 04:02:20

mszlazak@... schrieb: > SNDMAXSAMP gives the maximum absolute value of a wave. > Is there a signed (not absolute) version of this function? > I'm dealing with waves of only negative valued amplitues so the maximum > amplitude is the one closest to the axis. A absolute minimum function > would work here as well. > You can "invert" a sound (make the negative samples become positive and vice versa) by using Nyquist "scale" or "mult" with a factor of "1".  edgar 
From: <mszlazak@ao...>  20090628 03:58:51

Hi Roger, BTW, I think I figure out most of that paper we were exchanging on last week. It followed the work of one of the heavily cited references and as I implemented things others started to become clear. This led to this post and has to do with normalization of energy. Energy is estimated using g(t) = 10* lg (SUM of n frames in a 30 msec window centered on t) and here lg is the common logarithm. All my original audio signals s have absolute amplitudes less than 1 so the energy waveform of s is always negative. The least negative amplitude is the maximum value. At first glance, scaling by 1 seem right but isn't that a flip around the horizontal axis not a shift/slide up into positive ranges? To to the shift, I found the absolute maximum then added it to the energy signal, shifting it into positive ranges and then I found the maximum again. So a built in function would be nice. This second maximum value is part of a normalization procedure which then shifts the original energy signal g so it's minimum negative value is at zero. That's a part of the energy normalization they were referring to and had me scratching my head way the formula gave only zero and negative values. Anyway, thanks again for all that help last week. It was much appreciated. Mark. Original Message From: Roger Dannenberg <rbd@...> To: Discussion of developing Nyquist plugins for Audacity <audacitynyquist@...> Sent: Sat, Jun 27, 2009 7:59 pm Subject: Re: [Audacitynyquist] Is there a signed version of sndmaxsamp or absolute minimum function for sound? You can subtract your signal from a large number so that everything becomes positive and your minimum become the maximum. For related problems, you can also use sndmaxv to take only positive samples (or negative samples if you scale the input by 1) and then use sndmaxsamp to get only the most positive or most negative samples if the signal has both positive and negative samples. There's nothing in Nyquist now to take the minimum or maximum if you can't guarantee whether the value is positive or negative (but you can process the signal samplebysample, which is slow, but for such a simple calculation might be ok. Is should be substantially faster than real time). Roger mszlazak@... wrote: SNDMAXSAMP gives the maximum absolute value of a wave. Is there a signed (not absolute) version of this function? I'm dealing with waves of only negative valued amplitues so the maximum amplitude is the one closest to the axis. A absolute minimum function would work here as well. A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps!  _______________________________________________ Audacitynyquist mailing list Audacitynyquist@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacitynyquist  _______________________________________________ Audacitynyquist mailing list Audacitynyquist@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacitynyquist 
From: Roger Dannenberg <rbd@cs...>  20090628 02:59:29

You can subtract your signal from a large number so that everything becomes positive and your minimum become the maximum. For related problems, you can also use sndmaxv to take only positive samples (or negative samples if you scale the input by 1) and then use sndmaxsamp to get only the most positive or most negative samples if the signal has both positive and negative samples. There's nothing in Nyquist now to take the minimum or maximum if you can't guarantee whether the value is positive or negative (but you can process the signal samplebysample, which is slow, but for such a simple calculation might be ok. Is should be substantially faster than real time). Roger mszlazak@... wrote: > SNDMAXSAMP gives the maximum absolute value of a wave. > Is there a signed (not absolute) version of this function? > I'm dealing with waves of only negative valued amplitues so the > maximum amplitude is the one closest to the axis. A absolute minimum > function would work here as well. > >  > *A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! > <http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222585065x1201462786/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=JunestepsfooterNO62>;* > >  > >  > >  > > _______________________________________________ > Audacitynyquist mailing list > Audacitynyquist@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacitynyquist > 
From: David R. Sky <davidsky@sh...>  20090628 02:29:12

Hi Dave, How about 'fudging' such a function: (defun mysndmaxsamp (s) (* 1.0 (sndminsamp (mult 1.0 s))) ) ; end defun Assuming of course that sndminsamp actually exists. And this would only be for your special case where the signal is at or below the zero axis. David  David R. Sky http://www.shellworld.net/~davidsky/ On Sat, 27 Jun 2009, mszlazak@... wrote: > SNDMAXSAMP gives the maximum absolute value of a wave. > Is there a signed (not absolute) version of this function? > I'm dealing with waves of only negative valued amplitues so the maximum amplitude is the one closest to the axis. A absolute minimum function would work here as well. > 
From: David R. Sky <davidsky@sh...>  20090628 01:09:43

Hi Dave, I have documented several such Nyquist in Audacity items on my website in this link: http://www.shellworld.net/~davidsky/nyhelp.htm I've written about the len argument in the ;version 2 section. It's possible that Edgar Franke might have also documented such pointers, his website is listed somewhere in the Nyquist section of my site, or in the Nyquist section of my links page: http://www.shellworld.net/~davidsky/links.htm#nyquist David  David R. Sky http://www.shellworld.net/~davidsky/ On Sat, 27 Jun 2009, davewstorer@... wrote: > > Unfortunately, using (sndtapv (sndnormalize s) ....) did not work. The results were the same as without the sndnormalize. > > Do you have any other suggestions? > > Also, Thanks, David Sky for the information on the len variable which is the number of samples in the selected sound. I did not know about that  did I miss it in the AudacityNyquist manual or is it not in the manual yet? > > Dave > > Roger Dannenberg wrote: > It looks to me like Audacity's version of SNDTAPV does not check the incoming sound for a scale factor, so in this case it will compute the wrong answer. I'm not sure why your fix works. In any case, the standalone nyquist shows a number of changes to the code, apparently to fix a bug. I think you can wrap the input modulation signal to SNDTAPV with SNDNORMALIZE, which just forces the multiplication of the scale factor, and that should work around the problem, which I bet is already fixed in the latest version Audacity under development. > > (What's with scale factors? Nyquist scales signals lazily by just attaching the scale factor to a data structure used to access the sound. Many times, scale factors can be "factored out" of the inner loops, which makes scaling, a very common operation with signals, free in many cases.) > > Roger > > >  > _______________________________________________ > Audacitynyquist mailing list > Audacitynyquist@... > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/audacitynyquist > > 
From: <mszlazak@ao...>  20090628 01:02:20

SNDMAXSAMP gives the maximum absolute value of a wave. Is there a signed (not absolute) version of this function? I'm dealing with waves of only negative valued amplitues so the maximum amplitude is the one closest to the axis. A absolute minimum function would work here as well. 