I fundamentally agree with all that Gale says here and that
Steve said in his previous email. 
 
Does this mean that we are approaching consensus on this?
 
Peter.
 
Peter Sampson
Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780
Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299
From: Gale Andrews <gale@audacityteam.org>
To: audacity-quality <audacity-quality@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Sunday, December 9, 2012 10:13 PM
Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Adjustable Fade effect


| From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@gmail.com>
| Sun, 9 Dec 2012 21:29:10 +0000
| Subject: [Audacity-quality] Adjustable Fade effect
> I don't think that it is a good use of time to go back over the
> arguments for/against specific features as a great deal of time and
> effort has already gone into achieving a balance between simplicity
> and functionality.

I agree.


> The only simplification that I can see as a viable option without
> crippling the functionality would be to remove or reduce the number of
> presets, but each included preset has already been argued for, so I am
> inclined to retain the current list at least until we receive a
> reasonable amount of user feedback, which means making the plug-in
> available to a large number of users.

Again, I agree.


> Regarding "is it too complex for general release", it is arguably less
> complex than several effects that are currently part of the general
> release (Compressor, Click Track, Equalization, Auto Duck, Vocoder,
> Noise Removal, GVerb,....)

+1.

The only way I can see to make it more intuitive would be to make
it a C++ effect. In many ways that would be even better and would
solve the accessibility problems David and I have pointed out.

However a new C++ effect would duplicate a lot of work that has
already been done. It may be better to ship the Nyquist adjustable
fade, which gives us a chance to find out for real what is good and
bad about it, and perhaps build on that experience later to make a
C++ effect.


> There have been a number of excellent suggestions for improving this
> effect which are unfortunately beyond the current capabilities of
> Nyquist plug-ins. These will certainly be worth keeping in mind for
> when either, the Audacity Nyquist plug-in interface is enhanced, or an
> Adjustable Fade is programmed as a built-in effect. In the mean time I
> think that this plug-in offers a substantial benefit over the current
> Cross Fade In/Out plug-ins.

I'm in agreement with removing Cross Fade In and Cross Fade Out
(though I actually use them as my preferred fades) but only if
they remain as a preset. To remind again, the slider cannot
produce the Cross Fade shape.


> Regarding the "long tail" on the exponential fade out - This fade
> remain audible for considerably longer than applying an exponential
> fade to silence than when using the Envelope Tool. For people that
> like to listen to their music reasonably loud, the sound remains
> clearly audible for at least 90% of the fade out duration. There is
> obviously a matter of taste concerning how long the tail should be,
> and that is why this is primarily an *Adjustable Fade* effect. That
> particular preset is just one of an infinite number of presets shapes
> that individual users may prefer. IF user feedback demonstrates a
> strong preference for the Exponential Fade Out to be less curved
> (higher mid-fade) then we can easily change it (lines 68 and 69).

Whatever. I just sensed a possible "imbalance" with the pair of 
logarithmic presets.


> Regarding users that might think that the "dB" option is a "target", I
> have added the word "Gain", so now we have the options:
> Start/End as: % of Original
> Start/End as: dB Gain
>
> Typo "Exponential Out" now corrected.

Sounds good.



Gale


>
> On 9 December 2012 20:11, Gale Andrews <gale@audacityteam.org> wrote:
> >
> > If you recall Peter, I would have preferred not to have presets,
> > but have more fade types (so we don't get controls disabled).
> > That was what I was asking "more time to consider". Then the
> > mid fade slider and the gain controls "adjust" whatever shape
> > the preset produces.
> >
> > But this has problems in Nyquist because conceptually you
> > might expect e.g. choosing an EQ power type of preset to
> > move the slider automatically. And some presets might as I
> > understand it produce a shape the slider can't control.
> >
> > We know that a lot of users who have been asking for partial
> > fades are not technically accomplished. I think the mid-fade
> > slider is what they will struggle with.
> >
> > A separate "Fade Selector" (as I understand it) would not
> > allow partial fades, leaving people who want these to use a
> > "complicated" effect. It would also create an additional effect
> > when we are trying to rationalise fades.
> >
> > Power users may use the keyboard as well as the mouse -
> > it would probably be quicker to tab to an adjacent control
> > than use the mouse.
> >
> > Either way I think Adjustable Fade is still a reasonable compromise
> > even as it is now that has "something for everyone" in a single
> > effect.
> >
> >
> >
> > Gale
> >
> >
> > | From Peter Sampson <petersampson48@yahoo.com>
> > | Sun, 9 Dec 2012 03:10:19 -0800 (PST)
> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Adjustable Fade effect
> >> Martyn wrote:
> >> >Overall, A fully-featured effect, but is it too complicated for
> >> >main-stream? I don't know, as yet.
> >>
> >> 1) Adjustable Fade
> >> ===============
> >> What has made this "fully-featured (over-featured imo) is the
> >> addition of the presets.  The earlier versions of this effect that
> >> I tested for Steve did not have the presets - they were added
> >> quite recently.
> >>
> >> The real problem that I have with the presets in "Adjustable
> >> Fade" is that they remove  the "adjustability" - as use of any of
> >> the presets inhibit use of the other controls  - actually they
> >> inhibit the operation of the controls by the effect but due to the
> >> limitations of Nyquist they can't be made visually inoperable
> >> by graying them out.
> >>
> >> Accordingly I would vote for removing the presets so that
> >> "Adjustable Fade" can "do what it says on the tin" - and at the
> >> same time look less intimidating to the user (it would remain an
> >> extremely powerful effect though).
> >>
> >> Even simplified like this it may remain too complicated for the
> >> average mainstream user as Martyn suggests (I, personally,
> >> probably will never need to use it) but we should consider the
> >> power-users too of whom there are plenty in the Audacity user-base.
> >>
> >> If the presets were to remain in Adjustable Fade then I would
> >> argue *strongly* for retaining them at the bottom of the effect dialog
> >> as the "adjustable" part of an Adjustable Fade" should have precedence
> >> over the "selectable" and "non-adjustable" part - but this would definitely
> >> be a sub-optimal solution for me.
> >>
> >>
> >> 2) Fade Selector
> >> =============
> >> I do fully acknowledge that preset fade types are likely to be
> >> extremely useful and indeed many people, including Gale, would
> >> probably use them in preference to an Adjustable Fade.
> >>
> >> What I suggest we consider then is creating a new tool which
> >> enables the user to select and apply a fade shape - the presets
> >> which currently sit in v30d of Adjustable Fade - and maybe
> >> even add some more.
> >>
> >> Such an effect could be called "Selectable Fade" or "Fade Selector"
> >> or any similar name TBD.
> >>
> >> This would then easily facilitate the TAB use that Gale describes.
> >>
> >>
> >> 3) One-click fades
> >> ==============
> >> In doing this I would definitely *not* want us to lose the facility
> >> of a one-click simple fade, as with the current linear Fade In & Fade
> >> out - and the new Pro-Fade (committed currently as "One-click Fade
> >> out").
> >>
> >> The facility to effect this on your audio selection with a single click is far
> >> too powerful a tool lo lose.  It would be tedious in the extreme to have to
> >> access those fades by a "Fade Selector" as proposed above,
> >> necessitating at least two clicks and maybe more - but they could still be
> >> additionally included in the "Fade Selector".  Indeed the "Fade Selector"
> >> could even include secondary access to "Adjustable Fade"
> >>
> >> My 2c worth.
> >>
> >> Peter.
> >>
> >> Peter Sampson
> >> Tel: +44 (0)1625 524 780
> >> Mob: +44 (0)7732 278 299
> >>
> >>
> >>  From: Gale Andrews <gale@audacityteam.org>
> >>  To: audacity-quality <audacity-quality@lists.sourceforge.net>
> >>  Sent: Saturday, December 8, 2012 11:53 PM
> >>  Subject: Re: [Audacity-quality] Adjustable Fade effect
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@gmail.com>
> >> | Fri, 7 Dec 2012 15:25:46 +0000
> >> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Adjustable Fade effect
> >> > As promised, the "Adjustable Fade" effect.
> >> >
> >> > The documentation is not complete yet, but it's well on the way:
> >> > http://manual.audacityteam.org/man/User:PeterSampson/Adjustable_Fade
> >>
> >> Thanks again, Steve. My 2p's.
> >>
> >> For my usage (I would mainly use presets), the presets
> >> aren't "handy" at the bottom for repetitive usage unless
> >> I am going to use a mouse. To change a preset, or change
> >> from using a preset to using the controls, it's four
> >> SHIFT + TAB's, or six TAB's.
> >>
> >> If the presets were first, those who mainly use the controls
> >> only need one TAB to get into the controls (and don't need
> >> to TAB to change to using a preset).
> >>
> >> I'm not convinced that in reality it's more confusing when
> >> presets are first that controls are ignored when presets
> >> are on.
> >>
> >> So while I can live with presets at the bottom, my view for
> >> actually using the effect comfortably is that they would be
> >> better at the top (the default could still be "None Selected"
> >> as now).
> >>
> >> This assumes most people are going to use presets which I
> >> think is a reasonable assumption. At least I don't think such
> >> people should be made to work four or six times harder when
> >> using they keyboard.
> >>
> >> Other points:
> >>
> >> * The "Exponential" presets have a very long tail - do we need
> >>  that?
> >>
> >> * I think "Gain" or "Change" or some word should be added to
> >>  the three Start and/or End controls. Otherwise, those who
> >>  want a fade to a "target" level might be thinking this is it
> >>  if they change to "dB" :=)
> >>
> >> * Typo "ExponentialOut" (no space) in the presets.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Gale


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