WorldForge

Beautiful work, Tom.

One thing we will probably want to do when we integrate this into the
game is have some alternate graphics showing the temple in a few stages
of construction as well as decay.  

I guess as a general criticism of both yours and Uta's work is that
sometimes it is "too" perfect.  ;-) Seriously, though, in real life a
tile floor is going to have some random cracks, moss growing around the
edges of some tiles, grass around others, and stains and damage here and
there.  This is a pretty trivial criticism, though, because I know that
damage can be "imposed" via overlays really easily.  ;-)

One of the requirements just recently placed in our Belchfire vision
document is to permit "scenery chewing" - i.e., being able to cause
physical changes or damage to things that in other games would merely be
decorations.  

Anyway, so I guess I'm poking at you and Uta to see how you think tile
damage and modification should be implemented.  What do you think?

Bryce

P.S., I wonder a bit if your dome is actually architecturally sound,
but that's just the engineer in me nit picking.  ;-)

On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Tom Austin wrote:

> I have completed work on several archetectural building elements.
> dome,
> columns,
> circular stone wall.
> you can see an example of using them to create a small temple
> 
> http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/temple_column_dome_lapis_2_ta.GIF
> 
> here is a blown up vies of the temple.
> 
> http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/temple_column_dome_lapis_pieces_reduced_ta.GIF
> 
> I use overlays to set the lighting and color of the varius elements
> 
> I will upload the individual elements and also a photoshop file with
> the layers seperated.
> 
> Tom
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General mailing list
> General@...
> https://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general
> 

-- 
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bryce @ neptune.net


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Hello,

Bryce Harrington wrote:

> Beautiful work, Tom.

> One thing we will probably want to do when we integrate this into the
> game is have some alternate graphics showing the temple in a few stages
> of construction as well as decay.  
> 
> I guess as a general criticism of both yours and Uta's work is that
> sometimes it is "too" perfect.  ;-) Seriously, though, in real life a
> tile floor is going to have some random cracks, moss growing around the
> edges of some tiles, grass around others, and stains and damage here and
> there.  This is a pretty trivial criticism, though, because I know that
> damage can be "imposed" via overlays really easily.  ;-)
> 
> One of the requirements just recently placed in our Belchfire vision
> document is to permit "scenery chewing" - i.e., being able to cause
> physical changes or damage to things that in other games would merely be
> decorations.  
> 
> Anyway, so I guess I'm poking at you and Uta to see how you think tile
> damage and modification should be implemented.  What do you think?


This is a point I have already thought about and I had started to create 
damaged tiles. But at the moment the demo has the higher priority and so 
it will take some more time till more damaged tiles are available. I was 
thinking about pavement with cracks filled with grass and earth and such 
things. I have also started to make some textures more rough and this 
process will go on. But it will take time, because the first step is the 
creation of a tile and the second the integration inside a landscape or 
enviroment which is normally followed by new changes (color, hue, 
lightness...). At this point the real adaptation starts and goes on 
until the tiles and sprites fit toghether well. So these screenshots are 
always snapshots of the current state of  artwork and adaption and the 
process of  creation will go on ;)

>> Uta
>> 


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which do you think is better, layers or whole new tiles?
cause, blank spots in the layers can be highly compressed achiving way
higher than normal downloading speeds, and keeping it usually smaller
than the original tile

Uta Szymanek wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Bryce Harrington wrote:
> 
> > Beautiful work, Tom.
> 
> > One thing we will probably want to do when we integrate this into the
> > game is have some alternate graphics showing the temple in a few stages
> > of construction as well as decay.
> >
> > I guess as a general criticism of both yours and Uta's work is that
> > sometimes it is "too" perfect.  ;-) Seriously, though, in real life a
> > tile floor is going to have some random cracks, moss growing around the
> > edges of some tiles, grass around others, and stains and damage here and
> > there.  This is a pretty trivial criticism, though, because I know that
> > damage can be "imposed" via overlays really easily.  ;-)
> >
> > One of the requirements just recently placed in our Belchfire vision
> > document is to permit "scenery chewing" - i.e., being able to cause
> > physical changes or damage to things that in other games would merely be
> > decorations.
> >
> > Anyway, so I guess I'm poking at you and Uta to see how you think tile
> > damage and modification should be implemented.  What do you think?
> 
> This is a point I have already thought about and I had started to create
> damaged tiles. But at the moment the demo has the higher priority and so
> it will take some more time till more damaged tiles are available. I was
> thinking about pavement with cracks filled with grass and earth and such
> things. I have also started to make some textures more rough and this
> process will go on. But it will take time, because the first step is the
> creation of a tile and the second the integration inside a landscape or
> enviroment which is normally followed by new changes (color, hue,
> lightness...). At this point the real adaptation starts and goes on
> until the tiles and sprites fit toghether well. So these screenshots are
> always snapshots of the current state of  artwork and adaption and the
> process of  creation will go on ;)
> 
> >> Uta
> >>
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General mailing list
> General@...
> https://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general

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I'm wondering now if Hans' idea for transparent overlays could do the
job here?  E.g., imagine creating a dozen different "cracks" that could
be overlayed on any tile to give it the appearance of having a crack
running through it.  Or similarly for moss at the edges, etc.  This
would not only save the work of having to create a number of custom
tiles, but would also help minimize downloads.  Of course, this does not
rule out also creating special damaged tiles.  :-)

Zzorn, what do you think?  Can we do this using your transparent layer
concept? 

Wouldn't be cool if someone cast a fireball in Caer Jassad, and once the
smoke clears, one sees soot marks over a bunch of tiles, and the tiles
directly under the line of fire have been sintered and cracked, and
right where the fireball struck, the tiles have been fractured into
gravel and charred debris?  /me dreams on...

Bryce

On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Uta Szymanek wrote:

> Hello,
> > Anyway, so I guess I'm poking at you and Uta to see how you think tile
> > damage and modification should be implemented.  What do you think?
> 
> 
> This is a point I have already thought about and I had started to create 
> damaged tiles. But at the moment the demo has the higher priority and so 
> it will take some more time till more damaged tiles are available. I was 
> thinking about pavement with cracks filled with grass and earth and such 
> things. I have also started to make some textures more rough and this 
> process will go on. But it will take time, because the first step is the 
> creation of a tile and the second the integration inside a landscape or 
> enviroment which is normally followed by new changes (color, hue, 
> lightness...). At this point the real adaptation starts and goes on 
> until the tiles and sprites fit toghether well. So these screenshots are 
> always snapshots of the current state of  artwork and adaption and the 
> process of  creation will go on ;)
> 
> >> Uta
> >> 
> 
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General mailing list
> General@...
> https://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general
> 

-- 
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bryce @ neptune.net


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At 01:41 2000-12-02, Bryce wrote:
>I'm wondering now if Hans' idea for transparent overlays could do the
>job here?  E.g., imagine creating a dozen different "cracks" that could
>be overlayed on any tile to give it the appearance of having a crack
>running through it.  Or similarly for moss at the edges, etc.  This
>would not only save the work of having to create a number of custom
>tiles, but would also help minimize downloads.  Of course, this does not
>rule out also creating special damaged tiles.  :-)
>
>Zzorn, what do you think?  Can we do this using your transparent layer
>concept?

Yes, that is a good idea.  I hadn't though of that.

Games such as Half-Life use similar techniques, they have pictures of 
bullet holes, cracks, soot after explosions, and blood splatter, that are 
drawn on the geometry.  Players can also spray custom logos on walls.


We could have different overlays for different types of damage, and cracks, 
moss, snow, ice, sand, etc, for various kind of erosion from the 
surrounding environment and nature.

Damage overlays could be dents of various depth from blunt damage, rents 
and scratches from cutting damage (such as swords), and holes or chip-marks 
from piercing weapons.  In addition we could have soot marks from fires and 
explosions.

In addition to color overlays, we could use bump-mapped overlays in the 3D 
client, if that is possible.  (They might be possible to pre-render for the 
2Dclient too).  That way dents and cracks would be even more realistic.


Other things that overlays could be used for on the ground are tracks, such 
as footsteps and blood trails.


When a building block has taken much damage, it could crumble to a 
half-broken state.  This would not be possible to do with overlays, so for 
that we still need special sprites/3D models.



>Wouldn't be cool if someone cast a fireball in Caer Jassad, and once the
>smoke clears, one sees soot marks over a bunch of tiles, and the tiles
>directly under the line of fire have been sintered and cracked, and
>right where the fireball struck, the tiles have been fractured into
>gravel and charred debris?  /me dreams on...
>
>Bryce
>
>On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Uta Szymanek wrote:
>
> > Hello,
> > > Anyway, so I guess I'm poking at you and Uta to see how you think tile
> > > damage and modification should be implemented.  What do you think?
> >
> >
> > This is a point I have already thought about and I had started to create
> > damaged tiles. But at the moment the demo has the higher priority and so
> > it will take some more time till more damaged tiles are available. I was
> > thinking about pavement with cracks filled with grass and earth and such
> > things. I have also started to make some textures more rough and this
> > process will go on. But it will take time, because the first step is the
> > creation of a tile and the second the integration inside a landscape or
> > enviroment which is normally followed by new changes (color, hue,
> > lightness...). At this point the real adaptation starts and goes on
> > until the tiles and sprites fit toghether well. So these screenshots are
> > always snapshots of the current state of  artwork and adaption and the
> > process of  creation will go on ;)
> >
> > >> Uta
> > >>
> >
> >
>--
>Bryce Harrington
>bryce @ neptune.net

-- 
Hans Häggström (aka zzorn)
http://www.helsinki.fi/~haggstro/
"Share and Enjoy" - Cirius Cybernetics corp. - THHGTTG


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well, yeah, for alot of the damage, a layer for the texture would do.
Also, (before something like this starts up) it would be better to do
layers because most likely the layers will have alot of "white space" in
them, which can be easily compressed by anything from gzip/bzip2 to
simple modem compression, making both the layer smaller in actuall size
(do to png's way of doing things) and smaller in sent content. Also, we
could still further damage by applying a small bump map to that tile for
3D clients. (And semi-low detal bump maps are extreamly small) Also,
another idea could be to layer layers, so mabey you have tile, damange
10% layer a, damange 30% layer b, damange 40% layers a+c, or something
similar. ALSO one more thing, would it be pheasable to allow mabey a
gzip/bzip2 protocol extension or something to the (currently
non-exsistant) media server design? Ive noticed that sometimes bzip2
will further compress an already small png and sometimes jpg as well,
and we should be utilizing as much bandwith as possible.

Patrick McFarland
unknown@...

Hans Häggström wrote:
> 
> At 01:41 2000-12-02, Bryce wrote:
> >I'm wondering now if Hans' idea for transparent overlays could do the
> >job here?  E.g., imagine creating a dozen different "cracks" that could
> >be overlayed on any tile to give it the appearance of having a crack
> >running through it.  Or similarly for moss at the edges, etc.  This
> >would not only save the work of having to create a number of custom
> >tiles, but would also help minimize downloads.  Of course, this does not
> >rule out also creating special damaged tiles.  :-)
> >
> >Zzorn, what do you think?  Can we do this using your transparent layer
> >concept?
> 
> Yes, that is a good idea.  I hadn't though of that.
> 
> Games such as Half-Life use similar techniques, they have pictures of
> bullet holes, cracks, soot after explosions, and blood splatter, that are
> drawn on the geometry.  Players can also spray custom logos on walls.
> 
> We could have different overlays for different types of damage, and cracks,
> moss, snow, ice, sand, etc, for various kind of erosion from the
> surrounding environment and nature.
> 
> Damage overlays could be dents of various depth from blunt damage, rents
> and scratches from cutting damage (such as swords), and holes or chip-marks
> from piercing weapons.  In addition we could have soot marks from fires and
> explosions.
> 
> In addition to color overlays, we could use bump-mapped overlays in the 3D
> client, if that is possible.  (They might be possible to pre-render for the
> 2Dclient too).  That way dents and cracks would be even more realistic.
> 
> Other things that overlays could be used for on the ground are tracks, such
> as footsteps and blood trails.
> 
> When a building block has taken much damage, it could crumble to a
> half-broken state.  This would not be possible to do with overlays, so for
> that we still need special sprites/3D models.
> 
> >Wouldn't be cool if someone cast a fireball in Caer Jassad, and once the
> >smoke clears, one sees soot marks over a bunch of tiles, and the tiles
> >directly under the line of fire have been sintered and cracked, and
> >right where the fireball struck, the tiles have been fractured into
> >gravel and charred debris?  /me dreams on...
> >
> >Bryce
> >
> >On Fri, 1 Dec 2000, Uta Szymanek wrote:
> >
> > > Hello,
> > > > Anyway, so I guess I'm poking at you and Uta to see how you think tile
> > > > damage and modification should be implemented.  What do you think?
> > >
> > >
> > > This is a point I have already thought about and I had started to create
> > > damaged tiles. But at the moment the demo has the higher priority and so
> > > it will take some more time till more damaged tiles are available. I was
> > > thinking about pavement with cracks filled with grass and earth and such
> > > things. I have also started to make some textures more rough and this
> > > process will go on. But it will take time, because the first step is the
> > > creation of a tile and the second the integration inside a landscape or
> > > enviroment which is normally followed by new changes (color, hue,
> > > lightness...). At this point the real adaptation starts and goes on
> > > until the tiles and sprites fit toghether well. So these screenshots are
> > > always snapshots of the current state of  artwork and adaption and the
> > > process of  creation will go on ;)
> > >
> > > >> Uta
> > > >>
> > >
> > >
> >--
> >Bryce Harrington
> >bryce @ neptune.net
> 
> --
> Hans Häggström (aka zzorn)
> http://www.helsinki.fi/~haggstro/
> "Share and Enjoy" - Cirius Cybernetics corp. - THHGTTG
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General mailing list
> General@...
> https://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general

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Uta Szymanek wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Bryce Harrington wrote:
> 
>> Beautiful work, Tom.
> 
> 
>> One thing we will probably want to do when we integrate this into the
>> game is have some alternate graphics showing the temple in a few stages
>> of construction as well as decay. 
>> I guess as a general criticism of both yours and Uta's work is that
>> sometimes it is "too" perfect.  ;-) Seriously, though, in real life a
>> tile floor is going to have some random cracks, moss growing around the
>> edges of some tiles, grass around others, and stains and damage here and
>> there.  This is a pretty trivial criticism, though, because I know that
>> damage can be "imposed" via overlays really easily.  ;-)
>> 

>> One of the requirements just recently placed in our Belchfire vision
>> document is to permit "scenery chewing" - i.e., being able to cause
>> physical changes or damage to things that in other games would merely be
>> decorations. 
>> Anyway, so I guess I'm poking at you and Uta to see how you think tile
>> damage and modification should be implemented.  What do you think?
> 
> 
> 
> This is a point I have already thought about and I had started to create 
> damaged tiles. But at the moment the demo has the higher priority and so 
> it will take some more time till more damaged tiles are available. I was 
> thinking about pavement with cracks filled with grass and earth and such 
> things. I have also started to make some textures more rough and this 
> process will go on. But it will take time, because the first step is the 
> creation of a tile and the second the integration inside a landscape or 
> enviroment which is normally followed by new changes (color, hue, 
> lightness...). At this point the real adaptation starts and goes on 
> until the tiles and sprites fit toghether well. So these screenshots are 
> always snapshots of the current state of  artwork and adaption and the 
> process of  creation will go on ;)
> 

I must say that the cobblestones in
http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/meadow_test_5_us.jpg
http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/sprites_test_2.jpg
look quite realistic with all the crackles and irregularities.
I can't wait to walk through these lands - Well done, Pegasus !



-- 
Karsten-O. Laux                 	
klaux@...


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hey, bryce, why dont you ask uta to make you some layer-tiles imposing
various states of damage, so you always have a perfect tile set, and can
damage it any way you want. 


Bryce Harrington wrote:
> 
> Beautiful work, Tom.
> 
> One thing we will probably want to do when we integrate this into the
> game is have some alternate graphics showing the temple in a few stages
> of construction as well as decay.
> 
> I guess as a general criticism of both yours and Uta's work is that
> sometimes it is "too" perfect.  ;-) Seriously, though, in real life a
> tile floor is going to have some random cracks, moss growing around the
> edges of some tiles, grass around others, and stains and damage here and
> there.  This is a pretty trivial criticism, though, because I know that
> damage can be "imposed" via overlays really easily.  ;-)
> 
> One of the requirements just recently placed in our Belchfire vision
> document is to permit "scenery chewing" - i.e., being able to cause
> physical changes or damage to things that in other games would merely be
> decorations.
> 
> Anyway, so I guess I'm poking at you and Uta to see how you think tile
> damage and modification should be implemented.  What do you think?
> 
> Bryce
> 
> P.S., I wonder a bit if your dome is actually architecturally sound,
> but that's just the engineer in me nit picking.  ;-)
> 
> On Thu, 30 Nov 2000, Tom Austin wrote:
> 
> > I have completed work on several archetectural building elements.
> > dome,
> > columns,
> > circular stone wall.
> > you can see an example of using them to create a small temple
> >
> > http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/temple_column_dome_lapis_2_ta.GIF
> >
> > here is a blown up vies of the temple.
> >
> > http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/temple_column_dome_lapis_pieces_reduced_ta.GIF
> >
> > I use overlays to set the lighting and color of the varius elements
> >
> > I will upload the individual elements and also a photoshop file with
> > the layers seperated.
> >
> > Tom
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > General mailing list
> > General@...
> > https://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general
> >
> 
> --
> Bryce Harrington
> bryce @ neptune.net
> 
> _______________________________________________
> General mailing list
> General@...
> https://mail.worldforge.org/lists/listinfo/general

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Hans Häggström wrote:

> Games such as Half-Life use similar techniques, they have pictures of
> bullet holes, cracks, soot after explosions, and blood splatter, that are
> drawn on the geometry.  Players can also spray custom logos on walls.
>
> We could have different overlays for different types of damage, and cracks,
> moss, snow, ice, sand, etc, for various kind of erosion from the
> surrounding environment and nature.
>
> Damage overlays could be dents of various depth from blunt damage, rents
> and scratches from cutting damage (such as swords), and holes or chip-marks
> from piercing weapons.  In addition we could have soot marks from fires and
> explosions.

Interesting. I wonder how we'd deal with that programmatically. Obviously we'd
like to combine the imagary of damage in half life with representations of
actual structural damage in the world simulation. Does anyone have some ideas
on how we'd do this?

IIRC, we were a system of 'entities' and 'containers', is that still the case?

--
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At 01:12 2000-12-01, Tom wrote:
>I have completed work on several archetectural building elements.
>dome,
>columns,
>circular stone wall.
>you can see an example of using them to create a small temple
>
>http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/temple_column_dome_lapis_2_ta.GIF
>
>here is a blown up vies of the temple.
>
>http://www.worldforge.org/images/screenshots/temple_column_dome_lapis_pieces_reduced_ta.GIF
>
>I use overlays to set the lighting and color of the varius elements
>
>I will upload the individual elements and also a photoshop file with
>the layers seperated.


Wow, very nice!

I especially like the colorful and scaly texture on the dome.  Is it 
supposed to be some specific material?  The way the color changes with the 
viewing angle reminds me of some fabrics.

I like the floor in the dome too, with irregular green and blue tiling.  Is 
it the same material as the dome?  It would be nice to have it available as 
normal square floor tiles too.

The round stone edges and the pillars look a bit sharp, though.  The edges 
seem a bit too perfectly and sharply cut.  Maybe they could be blurred a 
small amount.

Shading the pillars on both sides is a good idea, it makes them stand out 
from the background.  But the shadow is perhaps a bit sharp, I'd imagine 
the shadow side would be lighted up a bit from sunlight that is reflected 
from the marble and from surrounding buildings.
The same goes for the shadow side of the dome, It fades to complete 
black.  The sky provides relatively strong ambient lighting, so pure black 
shadows should be rare, I think.

For some reason I don't like the orange color at the base and top of the 
pillars that much.  It could be just my personal opinion, or a result of 
the shading.  Maybe a bit more yellow, uneven, gold-like color could be 
used instead?

The pillars seem a bit densely spaced, will a character be able to squeeze 
past them?


Good work!


>Tom

-- 
Hans Häggström (aka zzorn)
http://www.helsinki.fi/~haggstro/
"Share and Enjoy" - Cirius Cybernetics corp. - THHGTTG


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At 07:45 2000-12-02, Patrick McFarland wrote:
<snip>
>Also,
>another idea could be to layer layers, so mabey you have tile, damange
>10% layer a, damange 30% layer b, damange 40% layers a+c, or something
>similar.

This is a good idea.  But I think drawing multiple layers on top of each 
other in real time uses unnecessary resources.  It would be much easier to 
just design a set of layers with increasing damage, so that they fit 
together in a sequence.  First the light one would be used, then the medium 
one would be used instead, etc.

For each damage type, we can have a few different sets of damages, where 
each set contains one layer for light damage, one for medium and one for 
heavy and so on.  The number of layers could vary, or we could fix it at 
something like 3 or 5.


>Patrick McFarland
>unknown@...

-- 
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http://www.helsinki.fi/~haggstro/
"Share and Enjoy" - Cirius Cybernetics corp. - THHGTTG


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Hello,

Patrick McFarland wrote:

> which do you think is better, layers or whole new tiles?
> cause, blank spots in the layers can be highly compressed achiving way
> higher than normal downloading speeds, and keeping it usually smaller
> than the original tile

The original images are usually layered. The older versions are carved 
in cd-rom, so that I can pick them up, if I want to reuse them. The 
images for the cvs are not layered. I thought about creating different 
states of damage for some tiles in the beginning, Those will be adjusted 
to the cvs tiles set. To use the older undamaged versions with newer 
ones only makes sence, if the process of "destruction" doesn't create a 
complete new tile...

> 
> 
> Uta Szymanek wrote:
> 
>> Hello,
>> 
>> Bryce Harrington wrote:
>> 
>>> Beautiful work, Tom.
>> 
>>> One thing we will probably want to do when we integrate this into the
>>> game is have some alternate graphics showing the temple in a few stages
>>> of construction as well as decay.
>>> 
>>> I guess as a general criticism of both yours and Uta's work is that
>>> sometimes it is "too" perfect.  ;-) Seriously, though, in real life a
>>> tile floor is going to have some random cracks, moss growing around the
>>> edges of some tiles, grass around others, and stains and damage here and
>>> there.  This is a pretty trivial criticism, though, because I know that
>>> damage can be "imposed" via overlays really easily.  ;-)
>>> 
>>> One of the requirements just recently placed in our Belchfire vision
>>> document is to permit "scenery chewing" - i.e., being able to cause
>>> physical changes or damage to things that in other games would merely be
>>> decorations.
>>> 
>>> Anyway, so I guess I'm poking at you and Uta to see how you think tile
>>> damage and modification should be implemented.  What do you think?
>> 
>> This is a point I have already thought about and I had started to create
>> damaged tiles. But at the moment the demo has the higher priority and so
>> it will take some more time till more damaged tiles are available. I was
>> thinking about pavement with cracks filled with grass and earth and such
>> things. I have also started to make some textures more rough and this
>> process will go on. But it will take time, because the first step is the
>> creation of a tile and the second the integration inside a landscape or
>> enviroment which is normally followed by new changes (color, hue,
>> lightness...). At this point the real adaptation starts and goes on
>> until the tiles and sprites fit toghether well. So these screenshots are
>> always snapshots of the current state of  artwork and adaption and the
>> process of  creation will go on ;)
>> 
>>>> Uta
>>>> 
>> _______________________________________________
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> 
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Hello,

Bryce Harrington wrote:

> I'm wondering now if Hans' idea for transparent overlays could do the
> job here?  E.g., imagine creating a dozen different "cracks" that could
> be overlayed on any tile to give it the appearance of having a crack
> running through it.  Or similarly for moss at the edges, etc.  This
> would not only save the work of having to create a number of custom
> tiles, but would also help minimize downloads.  Of course, this does not
> rule out also creating special damaged tiles.  :-)

If the textures are good, it should work basically. Perhaps we get some 
inconstencies because of the different directions of colores every 
artists normally uses (differences in contrast, basic hue, blur...). It 
could happen the different combinations could look different, sometimes 
better, sometimes more worse. We'll have to try it out and see what 
happens.

> 
> Zzorn, what do you think?  Can we do this using your transparent layer
> concept? 
> 
> Wouldn't be cool if someone cast a fireball in Caer Jassad, and once the
> smoke clears, one sees soot marks over a bunch of tiles, and the tiles
> directly under the line of fire have been sintered and cracked, and
> right where the fireball struck, the tiles have been fractured into
> gravel and charred debris?  /me dreams on...

:)))

>>>> Uta
>>>> 
>> 
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Uta Szymanek <szymanek@...> writes:

[...]

> The original images are usually layered. The older versions are carved 
> in cd-rom, so that I can pick them up, if I want to reuse them. The 
> images for the cvs are not layered. I thought about creating different 
> states of damage for some tiles in the beginning, Those will be adjusted 
> to the cvs tiles set. To use the older undamaged versions with newer 
> ones only makes sence, if the process of "destruction" doesn't create a 
> complete new tile...

Could you upload originals with layers? Format of original images
doesn't matter: It's always better have them in some format than not
at all. 

(so if in future something similar is needed, it can be added by
anybody: hopefully we some day have so many artist and art that nobody
is able do all needed modifications and teams are needed ;-)

[...]

-- 
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Hello,

Aloril wrote:

> Uta Szymanek <szymanek@...> writes:
> 
> [...]
> 
>> The original images are usually layered. The older versions are carved 
>> in cd-rom, so that I can pick them up, if I want to reuse them. The 
>> images for the cvs are not layered. I thought about creating different 
>> states of damage for some tiles in the beginning, Those will be adjusted 
>> to the cvs tiles set. To use the older undamaged versions with newer 
>> ones only makes sence, if the process of "destruction" doesn't create a 
>> complete new tile...
> 
> 
> Could you upload originals with layers? Format of original images
> doesn't matter: It's always better have them in some format than not
> at all. 

As I said it before, no. The most originals are not usefully for you. 
Everytime layes are needed, they are available. Apart from that you will 
have the trust in the artist that he will upload all details that are 
needed in a reasonable way.  If we need changes of hue, colors, ..., 
that can be done with the png's, too. In most of the cases the originals 
are the same as the png's and won't help you. Furthermore the originals 
will take away a -big- part od disc space and I don't wan't to overload 
our costly discspace with unnecessarry information and images.

Apart from that all I don't want repeat a discussion we had this year in 
spring, I think.



live long and prosper, Uta


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Uta Szymanek <szymanek@...> writes:
 
<NOT_A_LAYER_BUT_PLAYING_ONE_ANYWAY>
 
GFDL doesn't talk about originals for pictures: they them self are
considered originals (which actually is basically true for hand drawn
pictures)
 
</NOT_A_LAYER_BUT_PLAYING_ONE_ANYWAY>
 
Following is just my personal interpretation of wf 'spirit'.
I'm not artist, but do follow it for code.
Maybe other artists can also comment about it?
 
[...]
 
> As I said it before, no. The most originals are not usefully for you. 
> Everytime layes are needed, they are available. Apart from that you will 
> have the trust in the artist that he will upload all details that are 
 
If they are useful for you, then they might be also useful for other
artists also:
 
- what if you are hit by bus? :-(
- what if there is change that you don't have time to do
- what if you don't agree on some change that somebody wants to do for
  his/her server?
 
> needed in a reasonable way.  If we need changes of hue, colors, ..., 
> that can be done with the png's, too. In most of the cases the originals 
> are the same as the png's and won't help you. Furthermore the originals 
 
Ok, in this case it doesn't make sense, it only makes sense when
original has extra info, like layers.

(like for example map with label layer)
 
> will take away a -big- part od disc space and I don't wan't to overload 
> our costly discspace with unnecessarry information and images.
 
Infra people? Is disk space problem?
 
(about end users: it can be separate directory at ftp or separate cvs
module: only those that need to modify or want to look at originals
need to download (some of) them)
 
> Apart from that all I don't want repeat a discussion we had this year in 
> spring, I think.
 
Yes we had discussion, but many artists were not present :-(
(was there anybody else than you? zzorn?)
 
 
If I recall correctly, reason for not releasing layered version was
that it would reveal how you did it and you don't want to do it?
 
Isn't learning from others one reason for openness in wf project?
 
 
 
I have been thinking past months also about media description objects:
In addition to normal info needed by client and author info, etc..
there would be link to 'source' media description object:
It would contain things like
- file name in source version (layered, mesh, etc..) if any.
- description on how it was made
- info about source version (program used, etc..)
 
These source info objects can be shared by several source media
description objects (except for file name)
 
[...]

-- 
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Aloril wrote:
<SNIP>
> > will take away a -big- part od disc space and I don't wan't to overload
> > our costly discspace with unnecessarry information and images.
> 
> Infra people? Is disk space problem?
> 
<SNIP>
Nope.  When my new HD gets here, Malcolm is getting my old 8 gigger,
and, if needed, I can give up my old 9 gigger as well.

-- 
-Dave Turner
___________________________________________________________
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<pug> I only get two?

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Hello,

Aloril wrote:

>> As I said it before, no. The most originals are not usefully for you. 
>> Everytime layes are needed, they are available. Apart from that you will 
>> have the trust in the artist that he will upload all details that are needed in a reasonable way.  If we need changes of hue, colors, ..., that can be done with the png's, too. In most of the cases the originals are the same as the png's and won't help you. Furthermore the originals will take away a -big- part od disc space and I don't wan't to overload 
>> our costly discspace with unnecessarry information and images.
> 
>  
> If they are useful for you, then they might be also useful for other
> artists also:
>  
> - what if you are hit by bus? :-(
> - what if there is change that you don't have time to do
> - what if you don't agree on some change that somebody wants to do for
>   his/her server?

I repeat it again as on the yesterdays meeting : If the difference 
between the original format and the png is only that their are two 
layers instead of one (meaning the black background and the tile) then 
it is a waste of disc space . I use those originals you are so keen on 
as a safety copy in most of the cases and so the discussion is 
senseless, if you look up and read the sentences of the last mail again. 
I can't help you, but you have to trust in the artists judge which 
images are useful and which are not. Perhaps trust would be a better 
basis then thousands of rules and paragraphs...there will be always a 
case which isn't covered by them ;) I would prefer to be creative then 
to discuss this again and again. And to be honest I would never cause 
such a discussion in a section about which my kowledge is very 
restricted because I don't work in this area.

>  
> If I recall correctly, reason for not releasing layered version was
> that it would reveal how you did it and you don't want to do it?
>  

To repeat this again: I said : I will publish needed layers for tiles 
and sprites in a -reasonable way-. This goes not for the webimages and 
scenes. This will be the last time that I explain this. I think you're a 
bit pedantic with this issue.

> 
> Isn't learning from others one reason for openness in wf project?

Please look at my older mails about this issue...

>  
> I have been thinking past months also about media description objects:
> In addition to normal info needed by client and author info, etc..
> there would be link to 'source' media description object:
> It would contain things like
> - file name in source version (layered, mesh, etc..) if any.
> - description on how it was made
> - info about source version (program used, etc..)

I'm totally  stunned. Shall I immediately stop tile production and 
instead give lessons to all interested people ;)  I can't hardly do all 
needed stuff and work now.  You have the choise between a running demo 
and no demo because I a busy with writing descriptions. It really makes 
no sense in my eyes that you want to transfer with might and main the 
principles of programming to artwork. 

At this point I want to state that it definitly makes sense to publish 
basic documentation issues that allow a newbie to get started a bit 
better. But  expect that the activ artists own their personal way to 
handle tile and sprite creation on the basis of our documentation.

I didn't subscibe to the worldforge project to give lessons in artwork  
for everyone, but I subscribed to do artwork for a nice game. If someone 
feels called upon to do this, o.k., he should go on, but I won't do more 
then the needed basic docu. The few artists have hardly the time to do 
all needed docu and summaries ans webupdates and...I fear, if we use 
such a strict system for artwork then you will find even less artists 
then now. I can clearly imgine that the possible atists does not want to 
spend 50% of his time to describe and write down what he is doing the 
other 50% of his time.

A description of how a tile was made won't be usefull to you as it does 
not follow any standard scheme. Most of my tiles were created by a lot 
of trying out and randomly something turned out. My work is based on the 
basic documentation in the 2D section and all further process which 
finally lead to a tile do not follow a certain scheme and thus cannot be 
put in such a description. Simple accept this.
Furthermore if you look in books about game or graphic design you will 
only find basic issues, just as in our web documentation. and nothing 
more detailed. Probably there is a common reason for this:)

> Live long and prosper, Uta.



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Aloril, Uta is the media coordinator, so we accept her word on things
such as this.  I think you brought up some good points on it, but as Uta
reminds us, she's been right at our side through all of the media
licensing work.  We can trust her to choose the right path for our
project.  I think she's valued and listened well to your input and
advice as you've led us through the briar patch of licensing issues, and
know she believes as firmly in freedom as we do.

Also, I think you'd sympathize with her point that while docs might be
nice, they take a considerable amount of time away from things you'd
rather do.  I myself have had to rethink my desire for thorough
documentation with STAGE and weigh it against the need and desire to do
the code, and I bet you've done the same with Atlas and Cyphesis.

Bryce

On Fri, 15 Dec 2000, Uta Szymanek wrote:
> > If they are useful for you, then they might be also useful for other
> > artists also:
> >  
> > - what if you are hit by bus? :-(
> > - what if there is change that you don't have time to do
> > - what if you don't agree on some change that somebody wants to do for
> >   his/her server?
> 
> I repeat it again as on the yesterdays meeting : If the difference 
> between the original format and the png is only that their are two 
> layers instead of one (meaning the black background and the tile) then 
> it is a waste of disc space.
> 
> To repeat this again: I said : I will publish needed layers for tiles 
> and sprites in a -reasonable way-. This goes not for the webimages and 
> scenes. This will be the last time that I explain this. I think you're a 
> bit pedantic with this issue.
> 
> At this point I want to state that it definitly makes sense to publish 
> basic documentation issues that allow a newbie to get started a bit 
> better. But  expect that the activ artists own their personal way to 
> handle tile and sprite creation on the basis of our documentation.

-- 
Bryce Harrington
bryce @ neptune.net


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Uta Szymanek <szymanek@...> writes:

[...]

I'm sorry, I misunderstood you.

You are right, of course you know better than me when original is
useful for other artists (or to yourself if you for some reason lose
your local copies). I misunderstood what you meant.


And you are right, source for media doesn't need documentation: It can
be used without any.

I hope to write some time in future about how to add *optional*
description to media source definition files and how it can be shared
by whole collection or some subset of collection (like all trees) or
sometimes even for individual image.

> > Live long and prosper, Uta.

Ditto for you.

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Hello

I am new to this list and i discover this week worldforge.

I download the client for linux . I put it in /opt/forge i run
/opt/forge/go but i canot connect to any server.

I test the 2 server in server page but nothing good.

Is it possible to tell me how to conne t somewhere for the first time.

Thanks.

I am on debian 2.2
-- 
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|  Famy William  36 avenue des barattes  74000 Annecy  France   |
|  email:william.famy@...                             |
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Hello,

Aloril wrote:

> Uta Szymanek <szymanek@...> writes:
> 
> [...]
> 
> I'm sorry, I misunderstood you.
> 
> You are right, of course you know better than me when original is
> useful for other artists (or to yourself if you for some reason lose
> your local copies). I misunderstood what you meant.

Yes, that is the main function of the originals. And for the most 
combined sprites it is valid that there components are available as a 
seperate image (e.g combined ground tiles, marketstalls...). So in most 
of the cases the original really wouldn't help. I'm glad that this issue 
is clear now :)

> 
> And you are right, source for media doesn't need documentation: It can
> be used without any.

I'm thinking of adding some more small chapters when I have a bit more 
time....

> 
> I hope to write some time in future about how to add *optional*
> description to media source definition files and how it can be shared
> by whole collection or some subset of collection (like all trees) or
> sometimes even for individual image.

That's a good idea to make this optional.

>> Live long and prosper, Uta.
> 


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