Semantic MediaWiki

Suppose I put [[x::r::y]] on a page.  Does it appear on page x?  On page 
y?  Can I edit it in either of those places?  What happens if I do?

Kelly Jones wrote:
> I've now created a test site for a semantic MediaWiki that lets you
> put the triple (x,R,y) anywhere, not just on page x:
>
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>
> The code is available:
>
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/SemArbTri.txt
>
> The syntax for a triple is "[[x::R::y]]" (or just "[[R::y]]" if you're
> already on page x).
>
> Broken things I'd like help with:
>
> % When editing an existing page, all the semantic info vanishes. Compare:
>
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/The_Light_Fantastic
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Light_Fantastic&action=edit
>
> The first page has semantic info, the second doesn't. My extension
> does have a "in edit mode, don't display semantic data" comment + some
> supporting code, but commenting out this code doesn't help.
>
> % When editing a new page, semantic info is visible, but unformatted:
>
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wizard&action=edit
>
> % If I try to protect against spammers by adding this to LocalSettings.php:
>
> $wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = false;
>
> the semantic info disappears when you're viewing new (non-existent)
> pages. I've commented this setting out for now (so I can't give an
> example page of where this happens), but I'd like to get this fixed.
>
> % Minor: my code breaks the "nowiki" tag (so the main page says
> "((x::R::y))" instead of "[[x::R::y]]" when giving an example)
>
> % Minor: weird empty semantic triple at the bottom of some pages:
>
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Troll
>
> (am I doing the MySQL SELECT wrong?)
>
> % These are the "big" errors. There are many smaller errors + lots of
> features I want to add.
>
> Any volunteers? No CVS or anything yet (the sf.net page is not
> up-to-date), but please send suggestions/code improvements.
>
>

On 7/16/07, Kelly Jones <kelly.terry.jones@...> wrote:
>
> I've now created a test site for a semantic MediaWiki that lets you
> put the triple (x,R,y) anywhere, not just on page x:


This is a very neat idea. Is this integrated in Semantic MediaWiki
or is it a separate extension? If not, and given that SMW also uses
triples, although using the article's name as "x", shouldn't be easy
for you to integrate your idea in SMW?

Manu

FANTASTIC!  Kudos to you for figuring out a way to do this.=20

Here's an idea: why not integrate the triples viewing capabilities of
Similes' Exhibit (http://simile.mit.edu/exhibit/) into the bottom of the
Semantic Media Wiki page as an alternative to the table of triples.
Possibly as a link to a separate window, or possibly embedded into the
wiki page itself (which may be much harder).

Michael =20


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works=20
425 373-2845
michael.f.uschold@... =20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D

----------------------------------------------------
COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go
to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html=20



-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Jones [mailto:kelly.terry.jones@...
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:37 PM
To: mediawiki-l@...; semediawiki-user@...;
swikig@...
Subject: [swikig] semarbtri help request

I've now created a test site for a semantic MediaWiki that lets you put
the triple (x,R,y) anywhere, not just on page x:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

The code is available:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/SemArbTri.txt

The syntax for a triple is "[[x::R::y]]" (or just "[[R::y]]" if you're
already on page x).

Broken things I'd like help with:

% When editing an existing page, all the semantic info vanishes.
Compare:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/The_Light_Fantastic
http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=3DThe_Light_Fantastic&ac=
t
ion=3Dedit

The first page has semantic info, the second doesn't. My extension does
have a "in edit mode, don't display semantic data" comment + some
supporting code, but commenting out this code doesn't help.

% When editing a new page, semantic info is visible, but unformatted:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=3DWizard&action=3Dedit

% If I try to protect against spammers by adding this to
LocalSettings.php:

$wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] =3D false;

the semantic info disappears when you're viewing new (non-existent)
pages. I've commented this setting out for now (so I can't give an
example page of where this happens), but I'd like to get this fixed.

% Minor: my code breaks the "nowiki" tag (so the main page says
"((x::R::y))" instead of "[[x::R::y]]" when giving an example)

% Minor: weird empty semantic triple at the bottom of some pages:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Troll

(am I doing the MySQL SELECT wrong?)

% These are the "big" errors. There are many smaller errors + lots of
features I want to add.

Any volunteers? No CVS or anything yet (the sf.net page is not
up-to-date), but please send suggestions/code improvements.

--
We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying to
understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to new
ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile.

_______________________________________________
swikig mailing list
swikig@...
http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig

> On 7/16/07, *Kelly Jones* <kelly.terry.jones@...
 > <mailto:kelly.terry.jones@...>> wrote:
 >
 >   I've now created a test site for a semantic MediaWiki that lets you
 >   put the triple (x,R,y) anywhere, not just on page x:

Neat.  Perhaps you can add SemArbTri details to 
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix

 > http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
 >
 > The code is available:
 >
 > http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/SemArbTri.txt
 >
 > The syntax for a triple is "[[x::R::y]]" (or just "[[R::y]]" if you're
 > already on page x).

David Karger wrote:
> Suppose I put [[x::r::y]] on a page.  Does it appear on page x?  On page 
> y? 

(Disclaimer: I only skimmed the code.)

On both, and on the create_page (the one that has the definition). 
Looking at the code, semanticTable() renders a table showing every 
relation where the current page is the source, target, or the create_page.

> Can I edit it in either of those places?

You would follow the link to the create_page to edit there.

> What happens if I do?

You just get multiple instances of the relation, which will all show up 
in the semanticTable.


Emanuele D'Arrigo wrote:
 > Is this integrated in Semantic MediaWiki
 > or is it a separate extension?

Separate.

 > If not, and given that SMW also uses
 > triples, although using the article's name as "x", shouldn't be easy
 > for you to integrate your idea in SMW?

Somewhat easy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMOP :-) ).
SMW 0.7's 'smw_relations' table is similar to this extension's 
'semantics' table, but the former doesn't have the create_page column. 
(I'm not sure about the latest development version of SMW.)

SMW is obviously more elaborate, with RDF export, namespaces for 
relations and attributes, semantic query, inline queries, semantic 
browser, etc.

--
=S Page

Thanks to everyone who replied. Answers to questions:

% I originally tried to integrate this into Semantic MediaWiki, but
the code there seems very "page-centric". There doesn't seem to be a
concept of an arbitrary tuple. I'm sure this could be integrated into
Semantic MediaWiki (and since both are open source, anyone is welcome
to try), but I found it easier to write something separate. I'd
definitely like to get a lot of Semantic MediaWiki's features, either
by merging it into my code or vica versa.

% If you put [[x::R::y]] on page z: S Page is correct. You can edit
the tuple on page z only. It will be displayed read-only on both pages
x and y. However, the display on x and y will tell you that z created
the tuple, so you know where to go to edit it.

% I'd really like to get the table data looking nicer (eg, using
Exhibits), though I'd prefer something more server-side than
client-side (not sure JSON/JavaScript is that universally supported
browser-side?)

% I'd like to get a little more done (in terms of bug fixes +
formatting) before "officially" announcing this at
http://www.mediawiki.org/wiki/Extension_Matrix

-- 
We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying
to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to
new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile.

On 7/15/07, David Karger <karger@...> wrote:
> Suppose I put [[x::r::y]] on a page.  Does it appear on page x?  On page
> y?  Can I edit it in either of those places?  What happens if I do?
>
> Kelly Jones wrote:
> > I've now created a test site for a semantic MediaWiki that lets you
> > put the triple (x,R,y) anywhere, not just on page x:
> >
> > http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
> >
> > The code is available:
> >
> > http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/SemArbTri.txt
> >
> > The syntax for a triple is "[[x::R::y]]" (or just "[[R::y]]" if you're
> > already on page x).
> >
> > Broken things I'd like help with:
> >
> > % When editing an existing page, all the semantic info vanishes. Compare:
> >
> > http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/The_Light_Fantastic
> >
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Light_Fantastic&action=edit
> >
> > The first page has semantic info, the second doesn't. My extension
> > does have a "in edit mode, don't display semantic data" comment + some
> > supporting code, but commenting out this code doesn't help.
> >
> > % When editing a new page, semantic info is visible, but unformatted:
> >
> > http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wizard&action=edit
> >
> > % If I try to protect against spammers by adding this to
> LocalSettings.php:
> >
> > $wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = false;
> >
> > the semantic info disappears when you're viewing new (non-existent)
> > pages. I've commented this setting out for now (so I can't give an
> > example page of where this happens), but I'd like to get this fixed.
> >
> > % Minor: my code breaks the "nowiki" tag (so the main page says
> > "((x::R::y))" instead of "[[x::R::y]]" when giving an example)
> >
> > % Minor: weird empty semantic triple at the bottom of some pages:
> >
> > http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Troll
> >
> > (am I doing the MySQL SELECT wrong?)
> >
> > % These are the "big" errors. There are many smaller errors + lots of
> > features I want to add.
> >
> > Any volunteers? No CVS or anything yet (the sf.net page is not
> > up-to-date), but please send suggestions/code improvements.

Adding to my earlier comment...

It is interesting that you have just done this, despite numerous
arguments about why/how it could not or should not be done.  I was never
competent to evaluate those arguments from a programmer/ software
engineer's perspective, but I never bought them from a user perspective.

This raises some questions:=20
* how to you address those arguments? (from past forum entries)
* are there any tradeoffs from a user or developer's perspective? (which
in a sense patially validate those arguments)

Thanks
Michael=20


-----Original Message-----
From: Uschold, Michael F=20
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 12:25 PM
To: Kelly Jones; mediawiki-l@...;
semediawiki-user@...; swikig@...
Cc: David Huynh
Subject: Re: [swikig] semarbtri help request

FANTASTIC!  Kudos to you for figuring out a way to do this.=20

Here's an idea: why not integrate the triples viewing capabilities of
Similes' Exhibit (http://simile.mit.edu/exhibit/) into the bottom of the
Semantic Media Wiki page as an alternative to the table of triples.
Possibly as a link to a separate window, or possibly embedded into the
wiki page itself (which may be much harder).

Michael =20


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works
425 373-2845
michael.f.uschold@...
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D

----------------------------------------------------
COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go
to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html=20



-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Jones [mailto:kelly.terry.jones@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:37 PM
To: mediawiki-l@...; semediawiki-user@...;
swikig@...
Subject: [swikig] semarbtri help request

I've now created a test site for a semantic MediaWiki that lets you put
the triple (x,R,y) anywhere, not just on page x:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

The code is available:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/SemArbTri.txt

The syntax for a triple is "[[x::R::y]]" (or just "[[R::y]]" if you're
already on page x).

Broken things I'd like help with:

% When editing an existing page, all the semantic info vanishes.
Compare:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/The_Light_Fantastic
http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=3DThe_Light_Fantastic&ac=
t
ion=3Dedit

The first page has semantic info, the second doesn't. My extension does
have a "in edit mode, don't display semantic data" comment + some
supporting code, but commenting out this code doesn't help.

% When editing a new page, semantic info is visible, but unformatted:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=3DWizard&action=3Dedit

% If I try to protect against spammers by adding this to
LocalSettings.php:

$wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] =3D false;

the semantic info disappears when you're viewing new (non-existent)
pages. I've commented this setting out for now (so I can't give an
example page of where this happens), but I'd like to get this fixed.

% Minor: my code breaks the "nowiki" tag (so the main page says
"((x::R::y))" instead of "[[x::R::y]]" when giving an example)

% Minor: weird empty semantic triple at the bottom of some pages:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Troll

(am I doing the MySQL SELECT wrong?)

% These are the "big" errors. There are many smaller errors + lots of
features I want to add.

Any volunteers? No CVS or anything yet (the sf.net page is not
up-to-date), but please send suggestions/code improvements.

--
We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying to
understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to new
ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile.

_______________________________________________
swikig mailing list
swikig@...
http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig

_______________________________________________
swikig mailing list
swikig@...
http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig

There is a striking overlap in capability between the DPL extension
<http://semeb.com/dpldemo/index.php?title=3DDynamic_Page_List> of
MediaWiki and the Semantic Media Wiki.  Chief among these are:

1. Both rely on metadata to add a structural foundation to an important
subset of Wiki page content
2. The structured content sits in a metadata-based data store of some
kind
3. The  data store can be queried to dynamically generate web pages

I would go so far as to say that these are [possibly by far] the MAIN
advantages of both.
This raises some important questions:

1.	What is the added value of the Semantic Media Wiki extension
when I can do so much of the same kind of thing with DPL?
2.	Does DPL give you 80% of what the semantic media wiki offers w/
20% of the effort?
3.	How can I argue to my customers that a semantic wiki is really
necessary, when we have things like DPL?
4.	What are the pros and cons and tradeoffs of each approach, when
viewed as alternatives?
5.	Is there a way to merge the extensions so there are not two
implementation of fundamentally similar functionality?

Any thoughts?
=20
=20
Thanks
Michael




=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works
425 373-2845
michael.f.uschold@...
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D

----------------------------------------------------
COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go
to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html



-----Original Message-----
From: Uschold, Michael F
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 5:57 PM
To: Kelly Jones; mediawiki-l@...;
semediawiki-user@...; swikig@...
Cc: David Huynh
Subject: RE: [swikig] semarbtri help request

Adding to my earlier comment...

It is interesting that you have just done this, despite numerous
arguments about why/how it could not or should not be done.  I was never
competent to evaluate those arguments from a programmer/ software
engineer's perspective, but I never bought them from a user perspective.

This raises some questions:
* how to you address those arguments? (from past forum entries)
* are there any tradeoffs from a user or developer's perspective? (which
in a sense patially validate those arguments)

Thanks
Michael


-----Original Message-----
From: Uschold, Michael F
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 12:25 PM
To: Kelly Jones; mediawiki-l@...;
semediawiki-user@...; swikig@...
Cc: David Huynh
Subject: Re: [swikig] semarbtri help request

FANTASTIC!  Kudos to you for figuring out a way to do this.

Here's an idea: why not integrate the triples viewing capabilities of
Similes' Exhibit (http://simile.mit.edu/exhibit/) into the bottom of the
Semantic Media Wiki page as an alternative to the table of triples.
Possibly as a link to a separate window, or possibly embedded into the
wiki page itself (which may be much harder).

Michael=20


=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
Michael Uschold
M&CT, Phantom Works
425 373-2845
michael.f.uschold@...
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D

----------------------------------------------------
COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go
to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html



-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Jones [mailto:kelly.terry.jones@...]
Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:37 PM
To: mediawiki-l@...; semediawiki-user@...;
swikig@...
Subject: [swikig] semarbtri help request

I've now created a test site for a semantic MediaWiki that lets you put
the triple (x,R,y) anywhere, not just on page x:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

The code is available:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/SemArbTri.txt

The syntax for a triple is "[[x::R::y]]" (or just "[[R::y]]" if you're
already on page x).

Broken things I'd like help with:

% When editing an existing page, all the semantic info vanishes.
Compare:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/The_Light_Fantastic
http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=3DThe_Light_Fantastic&ac=
t
ion=3Dedit

The first page has semantic info, the second doesn't. My extension does
have a "in edit mode, don't display semantic data" comment + some
supporting code, but commenting out this code doesn't help.

% When editing a new page, semantic info is visible, but unformatted:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=3DWizard&action=3Dedit

% If I try to protect against spammers by adding this to
LocalSettings.php:

$wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] =3D false;

the semantic info disappears when you're viewing new (non-existent)
pages. I've commented this setting out for now (so I can't give an
example page of where this happens), but I'd like to get this fixed.

% Minor: my code breaks the "nowiki" tag (so the main page says
"((x::R::y))" instead of "[[x::R::y]]" when giving an example)

% Minor: weird empty semantic triple at the bottom of some pages:

http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Troll

(am I doing the MySQL SELECT wrong?)

% These are the "big" errors. There are many smaller errors + lots of
features I want to add.

Any volunteers? No CVS or anything yet (the sf.net page is not
up-to-date), but please send suggestions/code improvements.

--
We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying to
understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to new
ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile.

_______________________________________________
swikig mailing list
swikig@...
http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig

_______________________________________________
swikig mailing list
swikig@...
http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig

Michael,

In my experience with DLP and SMW, DLP is nowhere close to SMW in querying
functionality, types and so one, but it has some features (e.g. sorting by
data creation date, last update date and other article metadata, native to
MediaWiki) that are useful and that's why I still use it on
http://www.TechPresentations.org

To answer your questions:
1. Data types, relations between articles (not just links) and other
features derived from the meaning of data on the page (I know it's vague,
but SMW developers will probably give you better details on this one).
2. No, at least that's why I installed SMW and keep DLP just to provide
listings of "latest" stuff.
3. If they need to aggregate information from their wiki in really different
way, then they need SMW - take a look at TechPresentations for simple, not
very complex example. I also use SIMILE timeline representation of SMW data
heavily in there.
4. DLP just wasn't enough for me
5. Yes, adding some DLP functionality to SMW makes absolute sense and I hope
it'll be done by development team.

          Sergey


On 8/2/07, Uschold, Michael F <michael.f.uschold@...> wrote:
>
>  There is a striking overlap in capability between the DPL extension
> <http://semeb.com/dpldemo/index.php?title=Dynamic_Page_List>of MediaWiki
> and the Semantic Media Wiki.  Chief among these are:
>
> 1. Both rely on metadata to add a structural foundation to an important
> subset of Wiki page content
> 2. The structured content sits in a metadata-based data store of some kind
> 3. The  data store can be queried to dynamically generate web pages
>
> I would go so far as to say that these are [possibly by far] the MAIN
> advantages of both.
> This raises some important questions:
>
>    1. What is the added value of the Semantic Media Wiki extension when
>    I can do so much of the same kind of thing with DPL?
>    2. Does DPL give you 80% of what the semantic media wiki offers w/
>    20% of the effort?
>    3. How can I argue to my customers that a semantic wiki is really
>    necessary, when we have things like DPL?
>    4. What are the pros and cons and tradeoffs of each approach, when
>    viewed as alternatives?
>    5. Is there a way to merge the extensions so there are not two
>    implementation of fundamentally similar functionality?
>
> Any thoughts?
>
>
> Thanks
> Michael
>
>
>
>
> ==========================
> Michael Uschold
> M&CT, Phantom Works
> 425 373-2845
> michael.f.uschold@...
> ==========================
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go to:
> http://gethuman.com/tips.html
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Uschold, Michael F
> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 5:57 PM
> To: Kelly Jones; mediawiki-l@...;
> semediawiki-user@...; swikig@...
> Cc: David Huynh
> Subject: RE: [swikig] semarbtri help request
>
> Adding to my earlier comment...
>
> It is interesting that you have just done this, despite numerous arguments
> about why/how it could not or should not be done.  I was never competent to
> evaluate those arguments from a programmer/ software engineer's perspective,
> but I never bought them from a user perspective.
>
> This raises some questions:
> * how to you address those arguments? (from past forum entries)
> * are there any tradeoffs from a user or developer's perspective? (which
> in a sense patially validate those arguments)
>
> Thanks
> Michael
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Uschold, Michael F
> Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 12:25 PM
> To: Kelly Jones; mediawiki-l@...;
> semediawiki-user@...; swikig@...
> Cc: David Huynh
> Subject: Re: [swikig] semarbtri help request
>
> FANTASTIC!  Kudos to you for figuring out a way to do this.
>
> Here's an idea: why not integrate the triples viewing capabilities of
> Similes' Exhibit (http://simile.mit.edu/exhibit/) into the bottom of the
> Semantic Media Wiki page as an alternative to the table of triples.
> Possibly as a link to a separate window, or possibly embedded into the
> wiki page itself (which may be much harder).
>
> Michael
>
>
> ==========================
> Michael Uschold
> M&CT, Phantom Works
> 425 373-2845
> michael.f.uschold@...
> ==========================
>
> ----------------------------------------------------
> COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go
> to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kelly Jones [mailto:kelly.terry.jones@...>
> ]
> Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:37 PM
> To: mediawiki-l@...; semediawiki-user@...;
> swikig@...
> Subject: [swikig] semarbtri help request
>
> I've now created a test site for a semantic MediaWiki that lets you put
> the triple (x,R,y) anywhere, not just on page x:
>
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
>
> The code is available:
>
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/SemArbTri.txt
>
> The syntax for a triple is "[[x::R::y]]" (or just "[[R::y]]" if you're
> already on page x).
>
> Broken things I'd like help with:
>
> % When editing an existing page, all the semantic info vanishes.
> Compare:
>
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/The_Light_Fantastic
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=The_Light_Fantastic&act
> ion=edit
>
> The first page has semantic info, the second doesn't. My extension does
> have a "in edit mode, don't display semantic data" comment + some supporting
> code, but commenting out this code doesn't help.
>
> % When editing a new page, semantic info is visible, but unformatted:
>
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=Wizard&action=edit
>
> % If I try to protect against spammers by adding this to
> LocalSettings.php:
>
> $wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] = false;
>
> the semantic info disappears when you're viewing new (non-existent) pages.
> I've commented this setting out for now (so I can't give an example page of
> where this happens), but I'd like to get this fixed.
>
> % Minor: my code breaks the "nowiki" tag (so the main page says
> "((x::R::y))" instead of "[[x::R::y]]" when giving an example)
>
> % Minor: weird empty semantic triple at the bottom of some pages:
>
> http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Troll
>
> (am I doing the MySQL SELECT wrong?)
>
> % These are the "big" errors. There are many smaller errors + lots of
> features I want to add.
>
> Any volunteers? No CVS or anything yet (the sf.net page is not
> up-to-date), but please send suggestions/code improvements.
>
> --
> We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's trying to
> understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance to new ideas
> and technology is unwise and ultimately futile.
>
> _______________________________________________
> swikig mailing list
> swikig@...
> http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig
>
> _______________________________________________
> swikig mailing list
> swikig@...
> http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Semediawiki-user mailing list
> Semediawiki-user@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
>
>

Thanks,
=20
That is helpful.

Michael=20
=20

=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=20
Michael Uschold=20
M&CT, Phantom Works=20
425 373-2845=20
michael.f.uschold@... =20
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=20

----------------------------------------------------=20
COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the phone, go
to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html=20


=20

________________________________

From: Sergey Chernyshev [mailto:sergey.chernyshev@...
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 11:43 AM
To: Uschold, Michael F
Cc: mediawiki-l@...; semediawiki-user@...;
swikig@...; Jones, David H; Kitzmiller, Ted;
Badhrinath, Krishnakumar; Clark, Peter E; MarkG@...; Folger,
Deborah H
Subject: Re: [Semediawiki-user] Dynamic Page Listing (DPL) vs. Semantic
Media Wiki


Michael,

In my experience with DLP and SMW, DLP is nowhere close to SMW in
querying functionality, types and so one, but it has some features (e.g.
sorting by data creation date, last update date and other article
metadata, native to MediaWiki) that are useful and that's why I still
use it on http://www.TechPresentations.org

To answer your questions:
1. Data types, relations between articles (not just links) and other
features derived from the meaning of data on the page (I know it's
vague, but SMW developers will probably give you better details on this
one).=20
2. No, at least that's why I installed SMW and keep DLP just to provide
listings of "latest" stuff.
3. If they need to aggregate information from their wiki in really
different way, then they need SMW - take a look at TechPresentations for
simple, not very complex example. I also use SIMILE timeline
representation of SMW data heavily in there.=20
4. DLP just wasn't enough for me
5. Yes, adding some DLP functionality to SMW makes absolute sense and I
hope it'll be done by development team.

          Sergey



On 8/2/07, Uschold, Michael F <michael.f.uschold@...> wrote:=20

	There is a striking overlap in capability between the DPL
extension <http://semeb.com/dpldemo/index.php?title=3DDynamic_Page_List>
of MediaWiki and the Semantic Media Wiki.  Chief among these are:
=09
	1. Both rely on metadata to add a structural foundation to an
important subset of Wiki page content
	2. The structured content sits in a metadata-based data store of
some kind
	3. The  data store can be queried to dynamically generate web
pages
=09
	I would go so far as to say that these are [possibly by far] the
MAIN advantages of both.
	This raises some important questions:

	1.	What is the added value of the Semantic Media Wiki
extension when I can do so much of the same kind of thing with DPL?=20
	2.	Does DPL give you 80% of what the semantic media wiki
offers w/ 20% of the effort?=20
	3.	How can I argue to my customers that a semantic wiki is
really necessary, when we have things like DPL?=20
	4.	What are the pros and cons and tradeoffs of each
approach, when viewed as alternatives?=20
	5.	Is there a way to merge the extensions so there are not
two implementation of fundamentally similar functionality?

=09
	Any thoughts?
	=20
	=20
	Thanks
	Michael
=09
=09
=09
=09
	=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
	Michael Uschold
	M&CT, Phantom Works
	425 373-2845
	michael.f.uschold@...
	=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
=09
	----------------------------------------------------=20
	COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the
phone, go to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html
=09
=09
=09
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Uschold, Michael F
	Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 5:57 PM
	To: Kelly Jones; mediawiki-l@...;
semediawiki-user@...; swikig@...
	Cc: David Huynh
	Subject: RE: [swikig] semarbtri help request
=09
	Adding to my earlier comment...
=09
	It is interesting that you have just done this, despite numerous
arguments about why/how it could not or should not be done.  I was never
competent to evaluate those arguments from a programmer/ software
engineer's perspective, but I never bought them from a user perspective.
=09
	This raises some questions:
	* how to you address those arguments? (from past forum entries)
	* are there any tradeoffs from a user or developer's
perspective? (which in a sense patially validate those arguments)
=09
	Thanks
	Michael
=09
=09
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Uschold, Michael F
	Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 12:25 PM
	To: Kelly Jones; mediawiki-l@...;
semediawiki-user@...; swikig@...
	Cc: David Huynh
	Subject: Re: [swikig] semarbtri help request
=09
	FANTASTIC!  Kudos to you for figuring out a way to do this.
=09
	Here's an idea: why not integrate the triples viewing
capabilities of Similes' Exhibit (http://simile.mit.edu/exhibit/) into
the bottom of the Semantic Media Wiki page as an alternative to the
table of triples.
	Possibly as a link to a separate window, or possibly embedded
into the wiki page itself (which may be much harder).
=09
	Michael=20
=09
=09
	=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
	Michael Uschold
	M&CT, Phantom Works
	425 373-2845
	michael.f.uschold@...
	=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D
=09
	----------------------------------------------------=20
	COOL TIP: to skip the phone menu tree and get a human on the
phone, go
	to: http://gethuman.com/tips.html
=09
=09
=09
	-----Original Message-----
	From: Kelly Jones [mailto:kelly.terry.jones@...]
	Sent: Sunday, July 15, 2007 5:37 PM
	To: mediawiki-l@...;
semediawiki-user@...;
	swikig@...
	Subject: [swikig] semarbtri help request
=09
	I've now created a test site for a semantic MediaWiki that lets
you put the triple (x,R,y) anywhere, not just on page x:
=09
	http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
=09
	The code is available:
=09
	http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/SemArbTri.txt
=09
	The syntax for a triple is "[[x::R::y]]" (or just "[[R::y]]" if
you're already on page x).
=09
	Broken things I'd like help with:
=09
	% When editing an existing page, all the semantic info vanishes.
	Compare:
=09
	http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/The_Light_Fantastic=20
=09
http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=3DThe_Light_Fantastic&ac=
t

	ion=3Dedit
=09
	The first page has semantic info, the second doesn't. My
extension does have a "in edit mode, don't display semantic data"
comment + some supporting code, but commenting out this code doesn't
help.
=09
	% When editing a new page, semantic info is visible, but
unformatted:
=09
=09
http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php?title=3DWizard&action=3Dedit=20
=09
	% If I try to protect against spammers by adding this to
	LocalSettings.php:
=09
	$wgGroupPermissions['*']['edit'] =3D false;
=09
	the semantic info disappears when you're viewing new
(non-existent) pages. I've commented this setting out for now (so I
can't give an example page of where this happens), but I'd like to get
this fixed.
=09
	% Minor: my code breaks the "nowiki" tag (so the main page says
"((x::R::y))" instead of "[[x::R::y]]" when giving an example)
=09
	% Minor: weird empty semantic triple at the bottom of some
pages:
=09
	http://semarbtri.kgprog.com/wiki/index.php/Troll=20
=09
	(am I doing the MySQL SELECT wrong?)
=09
	% These are the "big" errors. There are many smaller errors +
lots of features I want to add.
=09
	Any volunteers? No CVS or anything yet (the sf.net page is not
up-to-date), but please send suggestions/code improvements.
=09
	--
	We're just a Bunch Of Regular Guys, a collective group that's
trying to understand and assimilate technology. We feel that resistance
to new ideas and technology is unwise and ultimately futile.
=09
	_______________________________________________
	swikig mailing list
	swikig@...
	http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig
=09
	_______________________________________________
	swikig mailing list
	swikig@...
	http://www.aifb.uni-karlsruhe.de/mailman/listinfo/swikig
=09
=09

=09
------------------------------------------------------------------------
-
	This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
	Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
	Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a
browser.=20
	Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.splunk.com/
	_______________________________________________=20
	Semediawiki-user mailing list
	Semediawiki-user@...
	https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/semediawiki-user
=09
=09

You guys must've missed my post days ago about this (and I've now disabled SMW because DPL can do everything it can--and more):

I just came up with an example where DPL replaces SMW while trying to figure out how to display the same page as 2 different things
(like an action vs. object). Using DPL, I can simply create lists of which pages in a category link to page/subpage
("property/value") or namespace (or not):page ("property:value"). So, using this design, I can embed a DPL query to list all pages
in the "Games" category that link to the current page as a subpage (or page in a namespace) that links to an action, effect, object,
etc--and all on the same page.

{{#dpl:
category=Games
|linksto=action/{{PAGENAME}} <!-- or action:{{PAGENAME}} -->
|redirects=include
|resultsheader=<h2>Games (%PAGES%)</h2>
|noresultsheader=<h2>Games (0)</h2>''No games have this action.''
}}

{{#dpl:
category=Games
|namespace=Action
|linksto={{PAGENAME}}
|redirects=include
|resultsheader=<h2>Games (%PAGES%)</h2>
|noresultsheader=<h2>Games (0)</h2>''No games have this action.''
}}

The only problem is DPL doesn't handle redirects seamlessly (like MediaWiki's Special:Whatlinkshere page does) and requires obscure
nested queries (and yet another template--DPL is a template abuser/whore, as is Semantic Forms).

No silly link syntax and no excessive server hits with SMW having to figure out all those relations (since DPL doesn't require an
extra database table). SMW's "facts" about section is replaced with DPL's list ouput which can be configured to be ANYWHERE on the
page, ordered however, and as a table, list, etc, thus not forcing a specific ordering/layout method.

Tell me, what is the point of SMW again?

Time to stop reinventing the wheel and work together, DPL/SMW devs...


From: Sergey Chernyshev
To: Uschold, Michael F
Cc: Jones, David H ; Folger, Deborah H ; mediawiki-l@... ; Badhrinath, Krishnakumar ; 
semediawiki-user@... ; Clark, Peter E ; MarkG@... ; Kitzmiller, Ted ; swikig@...
Sent: Friday, August 03, 2007 11:43 AM

In my experience with DLP and SMW, DLP is nowhere close to SMW in querying functionality, types and so one, but it has some features 
(e.g. sorting by data creation date, last update date and other article metadata, native to MediaWiki) that are useful and that's 
why I still use it on http://www.TechPresentations.org

To answer your questions:
1. Data types, relations between articles (not just links) and other features derived from the meaning of data on the page (I know 
it's vague, but SMW developers will probably give you better details on this one).
2. No, at least that's why I installed SMW and keep DLP just to provide listings of "latest" stuff.
3. If they need to aggregate information from their wiki in really different way, then they need SMW - take a look at 
TechPresentations for simple, not very complex example. I also use SIMILE timeline representation of SMW data heavily in there.
4. DLP just wasn't enough for me
5. Yes, adding some DLP functionality to SMW makes absolute sense and I hope it'll be done by development team.



On 8/2/07, Uschold, Michael F <michael.f.uschold@...> wrote:
There is a striking overlap in capability between the DPL extension of MediaWiki and the Semantic Media Wiki.  Chief among these 
are:

1. Both rely on metadata to add a structural foundation to an important subset of Wiki page content
2. The structured content sits in a metadata-based data store of some kind
3. The  data store can be queried to dynamically generate web pages

I would go so far as to say that these are [possibly by far] the MAIN advantages of both.
This raises some important questions:
What is the added value of the Semantic Media Wiki extension when I can do so much of the same kind of thing with DPL?
Does DPL give you 80% of what the semantic media wiki offers w/ 20% of the effort?
How can I argue to my customers that a semantic wiki is really necessary, when we have things like DPL?
What are the pros and cons and tradeoffs of each approach, when viewed as alternatives?
Is there a way to merge the extensions so there are not two implementation of fundamentally similar functionality?
Any thoughts?


From: Uschold, Michael F
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 5:57 PM
To: Kelly Jones; mediawiki-l@...; semediawiki-user@...; swikig@...
Cc: David Huynh

Adding to my earlier comment...

It is interesting that you have just done this, despite numerous arguments about why/how it could not or should not be done.  I was 
never competent to evaluate those arguments from a programmer/ software engineer's perspective, but I never bought them from a user 
perspective.

This raises some questions:
* how to you address those arguments? (from past forum entries)
* are there any tradeoffs from a user or developer's perspective? (which in a sense patially validate those arguments)

On 9/2/07, Eep=B2 <eep@...> wrote:
> (and I've now disabled SMW because DPL can do everything it can--and more=
):

Good for you! Enjoy DPL!!!

> Time to stop reinventing the wheel and work together,

You are so funny. =3DD

Manu

2007/9/2, Eep=B2 <eep@...>:
> You guys must've missed my post days ago about this (and I've now disable=
d SMW because DPL can do everything it can--and more):
>
> I just came up with an example where DPL replaces SMW while trying to fig=
ure out how to display the same page as 2 different things
> (like an action vs. object). Using DPL, I can simply create lists of whic=
h pages in a category link to page/subpage
> ("property/value") or namespace (or not):page ("property:value"). So, usi=
ng this design, I can embed a DPL query to list all pages
> in the "Games" category that link to the current page as a subpage (or pa=
ge in a namespace) that links to an action, effect, object,
> etc--and all on the same page.
>
> {{#dpl:
> category=3DGames
> |linksto=3Daction/{{PAGENAME}} <!-- or action:{{PAGENAME}} -->
> |redirects=3Dinclude
> |resultsheader=3D<h2>Games (%PAGES%)</h2>
> |noresultsheader=3D<h2>Games (0)</h2>''No games have this action.''
> }}
>
> {{#dpl:
> category=3DGames
> |namespace=3DAction
> |linksto=3D{{PAGENAME}}
> |redirects=3Dinclude
> |resultsheader=3D<h2>Games (%PAGES%)</h2>
> |noresultsheader=3D<h2>Games (0)</h2>''No games have this action.''
> }}
>
> The only problem is DPL doesn't handle redirects seamlessly (like MediaWi=
ki's Special:Whatlinkshere page does) and requires obscure
> nested queries (and yet another template--DPL is a template abuser/whore,=
 as is Semantic Forms).
>
> No silly link syntax and no excessive server hits with SMW having to figu=
re out all those relations (since DPL doesn't require an
> extra database table). SMW's "facts" about section is replaced with DPL's=
 list ouput which can be configured to be ANYWHERE on the
> page, ordered however, and as a table, list, etc, thus not forcing a spec=
ific ordering/layout method.
>
> Tell me, what is the point of SMW again?
>
> Time to stop reinventing the wheel and work together, DPL/SMW devs...

I believe you missed the point completely.
Simple dynamic database queries to filter pagelists are not the Semantic We=
b.

* Attributes are unified and can be calculated with,
{{#dpl-not:
category=3DGames
price < 100=80
|linksto=3Daction/{{PAGENAME}} <!-- or action:{{PAGENAME}} -->
}}

* An extra relation link table is a huge performance plus,

* Inference. Only the simpliest queries can be done with such dynamic pagel=
ists.

dpl layout rambazamba is a completely different topic and cannot be compare=
d to
SMW. SMW should really use some fancy layout backend for result lists.
Such as DPL's for example. But the DPL API is silly in my eyes. There must
be something better around.
--=20
Reini Urban
http://phpwiki.org/              http://murbreak.at/
http://spacemovie.mur.at/   http://helsinki.at/

> From: "Reini Urban" <rurban@...>
> Sent: Monday, September 03, 2007 10:23 AM
>
> 2007/9/2, Eep² <eep@...>:
> > You guys must've missed my post days ago about this (and I've now disabled SMW because DPL can do everything it can--and more):
> >
> > I just came up with an example where DPL replaces SMW while trying to figure out how to display the same page as 2 different 
> > things
> > (like an action vs. object). Using DPL, I can simply create lists of which pages in a category link to page/subpage
> > ("property/value") or namespace (or not):page ("property:value"). So, using this design, I can embed a DPL query to list all 
> > pages
> > in the "Games" category that link to the current page as a subpage (or page in a namespace) that links to an action, effect, 
> > object,
> > etc--and all on the same page.
> >
> > {{#dpl:
> > category=Games
> > |linksto=action/{{PAGENAME}} <!-- or action:{{PAGENAME}} -->
> > |redirects=include
> > |resultsheader=<h2>Games (%PAGES%)</h2>
> > |noresultsheader=<h2>Games (0)</h2>''No games have this action.''
> > }}
> >
> > {{#dpl:
> > category=Games
> > |namespace=Action
> > |linksto={{PAGENAME}}
> > |redirects=include
> > |resultsheader=<h2>Games (%PAGES%)</h2>
> > |noresultsheader=<h2>Games (0)</h2>''No games have this action.''
> > }}
> >
> > The only problem is DPL doesn't handle redirects seamlessly (like MediaWiki's Special:Whatlinkshere page does) and requires 
> > obscure
> > nested queries (and yet another template--DPL is a template abuser/whore, as is Semantic Forms).
> >
> > No silly link syntax and no excessive server hits with SMW having to figure out all those relations (since DPL doesn't require 
> > an
> > extra database table). SMW's "facts" about section is replaced with DPL's list ouput which can be configured to be ANYWHERE on 
> > the
> > page, ordered however, and as a table, list, etc, thus not forcing a specific ordering/layout method.
> >
> > Tell me, what is the point of SMW again?
> >
> > Time to stop reinventing the wheel and work together, DPL/SMW devs...
>
> I believe you missed the point completely.
> Simple dynamic database queries to filter pagelists are not the Semantic Web.
>
> * Attributes are unified and can be calculated with,
> {{#dpl-not:
> category=Games
> price < 100€
> |linksto=action/{{PAGENAME}} <!-- or action:{{PAGENAME}} -->
> }}

So DPL is limited in performing less-/greater-than queries, but that's not a difficult thing to add with a math function via a 
nested DPL statement. Perhaps Gero (DPL's current dev) can provide an example of how this would be done, but I'm sure it's possible 
with DPL.

> * An extra relation link table is a huge performance plus,

You have an odd definition of "huge performance plus" then because I don't consider excessive server calls (thus making pages load 
slower and longer) a "huge performance plus"...

> * Inference. Only the simpliest queries can be done with such dynamic pagelists.

Not quite; try actually using DPL before making such an ignorant statement.

> dpl layout rambazamba is a completely different topic and cannot be compared to
> SMW. SMW should really use some fancy layout backend for result lists.
> Such as DPL's for example. But the DPL API is silly in my eyes. There must
> be something better around.

Actually, anything can be compared to/with anything else. Comparison is not limited to just similarities but also includes 
differences.