Matthias Benkmann wrote:
>On Thu, 12 Feb 2004 22:47:29 -0600 "Jem" <lists03@...> wrote:
>>should be no reason for anyone to find a virus in their ISP-provided
>>mail account. It's the human element, and not the technical one, that's
>>failing. btinternet's outgoing mail servers should not be sending me 10
>>worms/day. Same with wanadoo... there is no excuse for this.
First the virus has to be sent out. Then, the AV people have to get a
copy. Then the AV people have to write a solution for it. F-Secure did
this in 90 minutes for MyDoom! I am constantly impressed by these guys.
So, then the user has to go online and get the updates.. most users are
not checking for updates on more than a daily basis... or all they'd be
doing is spending their bandwidth checking for updates. Meanwhile the 15
minutes is up. Sorry, but you are living in a dream world, thinking
computers have magical intelligence to predict what is coming next and
putting a stop in place before it happens.
And then the AV people seem to take great joy in spamming us with
returned mail, some even containing the virus!!! Even though they know
the sender's address is forged. Why would they do this? Yup, it is an
out and out spam attack under the guise that you sent out a virus, with
a link to their site for the latest AV software, even though they 'know'
the sender's address is spoofed!!. Can you say 'crying wolf?' further
degrading the abilitites of the common user to understand anything and
further degrading a suddenly taxed email system due to the viruses being
>>The technical solutions already exist, but the humans are failing to
>>implement them. It's not hard to do, I guarantee you it's just laziness.
The tech solutions don't exist until after the fact. The bugs have to be
found by an exploit, then repaired. Fortunately we have a lot of white
hats out there finding bugs for the good of us all.. Perhaps more white
hats than black hats?
Whoever comes up with this perfect solution is going to be nearly as
rich as Bill Gates. Since you think tech solutions already exist and
since you think it is not hard to do, but only laziness, why don't you
do it for us? We'll all pay you big money for it.... as long as it is
the perfect solution. And of course, the code for this cannot contain
any bugs, as these may create security issues.
And IF the technical solutions already exist, why don't you have them
installed on YOUR computer? Why am I as an admin asked to act like the
<insert your favorite big bad organization here> and in effect censor
your email? In my opinion this IS the big issue! Who am I to decide what
you want to receive or not? There is no way I'm ever putting in place a
system like that. I'm sorry, but this can only be an end user issue.
Actually, I'm looking for the lawsuits to start due to non-delivered
mail due to some Anti-Spam error which caused the loss of revenues
(looking forward to it actually). I can note two for sure with my users.
One a $465,000 piece of real estate.. I caught the bounce by chance...
got it through to him via a phone call and he made the sale. Something
on Big_Email_Provider.net was making the email bounce. No idea what.
Another was much less money, as it only involved a question about an inn
being friendly to couples of different sexual persuasions. Most are...
but an important question for the inngoer to ask.
The magic technical solutions do NOT exist, system wide for an ISP, but
only on a user by user situation. In fact, we've had many new hosting
clients due to our NOT running a system wide Anti-Spam system. They have
simply missed too much business and would rather delete 1000 spams to
insure they get the one order.
>If humans were not failing to apply common sense, we'd not need to apply
>technical solutions. Let's say I send someone a package by snail mail that
>contains a piece of candy you've never seen before and the text: "Really
>great stuff! Try it!" How many people would just eat the candy, especially
>when the sender of the package is someone unknown? I certainly wouldn't
>eat it even if I knew the sender. I don't think 10000s of people would eat
>the candy. It's common sense. They've learned not to take candy from
>strangers since their childhood. The same level of indoctrination is
>simply missing for E-Mail. I think what we need is virus like in the old
>days, that erases the hard drive on a certain day. Such a thing would be a
>great service to humanity. No, we don't need one such virus, we need MANY.
>We need a new one every month.
Yeah, except these latest viruses oftentimes appear to be from someone
you know! But you are exactly right. We need a real baddy out there that
just destroys the machines of those who don't know/care if they have one
of these worms. "We're too dumb to fix our machines so we don't." I
actually manage to contact a few owners of machines with so_big, and
they got mad at me for informing them what was going on. They were
slamming my stuff with a virus and were mad when I tried to help them
with their systems. Meanwhile their business computer was slamming all
of their customers whose email address was on the machine, with viruses.
The mentality out there is unreal!
>The problem we have is that the viruses today do not cause noticeable
>problems for users. People are afraid of candy from strangers because they
>fear poison. It's a concept they understand. What is there to fear about
>modern computer viruses? Backdoors? People don't even know what that is.
>It's really crazy. Back in DOS times, almost every virus used to have a
>nasty damage function. Why does no one write these anymore? What has
>happened? Are kids today too afraid of the damage they would cause?
It is far too important to not break the machine you have infected,
since it is spreading the disease. To simply kill it would be self
So, again, I guess I should at least mention SpamProbe as we are on that
list! I'm still installing it for clients and still using individual
databases for each user. They get ALL their mail if the want to see it.
They get to decide what is or is not spam and it really is a great
solution that is providing great results.
Perhaps Brian should take this one step further and write a client side
version... one that ties into Outlook, Eudora, Thunderbird, etc... so
each user can run it locally. Me? I wouldn't touch trying to write
something to Outlook with a ten foot pole. Seems every version has
different buttons in different places with different names. I'm going
thru hell just trying to write the help files for my users to set up
Outlook for my SpamProbe/IMAP system. Sheeez!!!