OmegaT - multiplatform CAT tool

On Friday 03 December 2004 15:59, you wrote:
> Hi Developers,
>
> 1. Who updates docs?
> AFAIK it's either Marc or Dmitri, am I correct?

Dmitri is responsible for updating the on-screen help texts, but I'll be 
around to help if necessary. I'll update the ASAD myself but it might take a 
little longer.

> 2. Who translates (new docs and new UI entries) for each language?
> AFAIK we have the following l10ns existing and planned for 1.4.4 and
> their resprective authors:
> - Belorussian & Russian - Dmitri Gabinski
> - French - Jean-Christophe Helary
> - German - by Sabine Cretella
> - Spanish - by Juan Salcines and César Escribano Esteban

The Catalan version is also fairly new and should be worth updating.

Marc

Hi Marc,

> The Catalan version is also fairly new and should
> be worth updating.

Who is responsible for Catalan version?

M.

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> 1. Who updates docs?
> AFAIK it's either Marc or Dmitri, am I correct?
> I'll explain you what sections should be updated or written from
> scratch. It would also be nice if you coordinate with JC and decide
> upon including the screenshots into docs.

i personally don't think the screenshots are that important in the doc 
per-se, but i have done some formatting work based on marc's original 
doc and i think it is worth working on that base. i won't mind if it 
does not happen though :)


> 2. Who translates (new docs and new UI entries) for each language?
> AFAIK we have the following l10ns existing and planned for 1.4.4 and
> their resprective authors:
> - Belorussian & Russian - Dmitri Gabinski
> - French - Jean-Christophe Helary
> - German - by Sabine Cretella
> - Spanish - by Juan Salcines and César Escribano Esteban
>
> Please reply if you are able to update docs and UI localizations as
> soon as they are ready (UI is ready, Docs - not yet), and how much
> time will it take.

i suppose you have not included my "updated" bundle.properties ? i 
posted it to sourceforge but since there has not been any comments i 
suppose nobody has really seen it :)

JC

> i suppose you have not included my "updated" 
> bundle.properties ? 
> i posted it to sourceforge but since there 
> has not been any comments
> i suppose nobody has really seen it :)

Not sure for "nobody", but I haven't looked at it, you are right...
Sorry

I'd rather wait till 1.4.5, in which I plan to change the menu
structure a bit.

ciao
Maxym


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El vie, 03-12-2004 a las 15:59, Maxym Mykhalchuk escribi=F3:

> 2. Who translates (new docs and new UI entries) for each language?
> AFAIK we have the following l10ns existing and planned for 1.4.4 and
> their resprective authors:
> - Belorussian & Russian - Dmitri Gabinski=20
> - French - Jean-Christophe Helary
> - German - by Sabine Cretella
> - Spanish - by Juan Salcines and César Escribano Esteban
>=20
> Please reply if you are able to update docs and UI localizations as
> soon as they are ready (UI is ready, Docs - not yet), and how much
> time will it take.
>=20

Hi Maxym,

Updating the Spanish UI in a short time is no problem, updating the
documents might be in case it finds me deep into a big project which
might start next week. Anyway, sharing again the task with C=E9sar would
help.

Will you be available, C=E9sar?

Juan

Of course. I am willing and able!

Greetings,

C=E9sar


El 03/12/2004, a las 21:52, Juan Salcines escribi=F3:

> El vie, 03-12-2004 a las 15:59, Maxym Mykhalchuk escribi=F3:
>
>> 2. Who translates (new docs and new UI entries) for each language?
>> AFAIK we have the following l10ns existing and planned for 1.4.4 and
>> their resprective authors:
>> - Belorussian & Russian - Dmitri Gabinski
>> - French - Jean-Christophe Helary
>> - German - by Sabine Cretella
>> - Spanish - by Juan Salcines and César Escribano Esteban
>>
>> Please reply if you are able to update docs and UI localizations as
>> soon as they are ready (UI is ready, Docs - not yet), and how much
>> time will it take.
>>
>
> Hi Maxym,
>
> Updating the Spanish UI in a short time is no problem, updating the
> documents might be in case it finds me deep into a big project which
> might start next week. Anyway, sharing again the task with C=E9sar =
would
> help.
>
> Will you be available, C=E9sar?
>
> Juan
>
>
------------------------------------


cesar_escribano@...
gyulac@...

Maxym Mykhalchuk wrote:
 >
> 2. Who translates (new docs and new UI entries) for each language?
> AFAIK we have the following l10ns existing and planned for 1.4.4 and
> their resprective authors:
> - Belorussian & Russian - Dmitri Gabinski 
> - French - Jean-Christophe Helary
> - German - by Sabine Cretella
> - Spanish - by Juan Salcines and César Escribano Esteban
> 
I could add Dutch if you like.

Henry

On 4 d=E9c. 04, at 00:28, Maxym Mykhalchuk wrote:

>> i suppose you have not included my "updated"
>> bundle.properties ?
>> i posted it to sourceforge but since there
>> has not been any comments
>> i suppose nobody has really seen it :)
>
> Not sure for "nobody", but I haven't looked at it, you are right...
> Sorry
>
> I'd rather wait till 1.4.5, in which I plan to change the menu
> structure a bit.

Some things I changed may be somehow questionable, but i think it would=20=

be nice to include some (if not most) of the changes in the next beta,=20=

because it really makes the menus and messages clearer.

I'd love it if people could at least take a look at it and review it....

JC

ps: i can't find it on my disk and it does not seem to be on SF, would=20=

you have a copy yourself ?=

>>2. Who translates (new docs and new UI entries) for each language?

Apart from the help files and bundle.properties, what other files must 
be translated/localised?

Samuel

Hi Henry,

> I could add Dutch if you like.

That would be really nice!

Maxym

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Hi Samuel,

None more,
Bundle.properties contains all the UI strings,
and Help files are help files ;-))

ciao
Maxym


--- Samuel Murray <leuce@...> wrote:

> 
> >>2. Who translates (new docs and new UI entries) for each
> language?
> 
> Apart from the help files and bundle.properties, what other files
> must 
> be translated/localised?
> 
> Samuel
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
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Hi JC,

BetaX includes the strings you suggested

ciao
Maxym

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Hi All,

noted that omegat-dev... mailing list has a decrease in traffic, so
I'd like to flood it a bit ;-)

And also ask if you're in time with completing l10ns before Monday,
20th. Also if while translating you find any typo - send them here to
omegat-dev..., I'll try to handle them ASAP.

Status so far:

- OmegaT 1.4.4 RC released, UI and functionality are stabilized

- Belorussian & Russian l10n is ready by Dmitri Gabinski 
    Dmitri had a big handycap, though, as he (re)wrote English
docs...

> - French - Jean-Christophe Helary
> - German - by Sabine Cretella
> - Spanish - by Juan Salcines and César Escribano Esteban


m.


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Maxym Mykhalchuk skryf om 7:16 AM op 14/12/2004:

> And also ask if you're in time with completing l10ns before Monday,
> 20th. Also if while translating you find any typo - send them here to
> omegat-dev..., I'll try to handle them ASAP.

I can send you the latest Afrikaans GUI, but those documents are going to=
 have to wait quite a while.

Perhaps one could include a "quick start" page in OmegaT (when it loads, I=
 think, would be good) which explains the basics in a single page.  OmegaT=
 is pretty straightforward once one understands how to create, open and=
 compile a project.  My2c.

Samuel

On Tuesday 14 December 2004 16:22, Samuel Murray wrote:
> Perhaps one could include a "quick start" page in OmegaT (when it loads, I
> think, would be good) which explains the basics in a single page.  OmegaT
> is pretty straightforward once one understands how to create, open and
> compile a project.  My2c.

For example a button linking to the "Getting started - an example project" 
page?

Marc

Samuel Murray:

>Perhaps one could include a "quick start" page in OmegaT (when it 
>loads, I think, would be good) which explains the basics in a single 
>page.

I think, that's superfluous. To get the basics explained, just RTFM!

Dmitri Gabinski
 
 
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Hi Maxym,

> And also ask if you're in time with completing l10ns before Monday,
> 20th. Also if while translating you find any typo - send them here to
> omegat-dev..., I'll try to handle them ASAP.

I will try to have my part ready ASAP (translation of help files and
editing of UI), but it will probably have to wait until next weekend,
and then C=C3=A9sar will have to edit the docs, so perhaps putting off the
release date a couple of days would help us.

By the way, I have noticed that in OmT1.4.4RC there is no "Keyword
search" option in the Find window, but the text explaining this option
is still there.

Juan

Hi People!

Juan Salcines wrote:

> ... so perhaps putting off the release date 
> a couple of days would help us.

JC wrote:

> i'll be back home on the 19th and the best i could is by the
> following sunday (26 ?)

And Sabine didn't write back yet.

So it seems we won't be ready before X-Mas. 
What do you advise? 
- Releasing after New Year 2005 holidays
  (I'd prefer this option)
- Releasing English+Belorussian+Russian pack now, and release
all-languages pack later

Sincere,
Maxym Mykhalchuk

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Hi Juan,

I just forgot to implement this option for 1.4.4 RC,
it will be there in RC2 or in 1.4.4 final.
(the text is already there in UI / Docs)

Sincere,
Maxym Mykhalchuk

Juan Salcines wrote:

> By the way, I have noticed that in OmT1.4.4RC there is no 
> "Keyword search" option in the Find window, but the text 
> explaining this option is still there.


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Maxym Mykhalchuk:

>- Releasing after New Year 2005 holidays
>  (I'd prefer this option)
>- Releasing English+Belorussian+Russian pack now, and release
>all-languages pack later

I'll probably be out of development from 27 December to 14 January. 
So, if there'll be no questions to me, both options seem to be OK. 
However, I'd prefer to issue English+Belarusian+Russian (by the way, 
I've sent also Esperanto properties, did you get it?) now as, say, RC2 
(for other languages, previous *.properties and help files can be 
retained). Who knows, maybe, we'll discover yet something, that can be 
quick-fixed till New Year.

Best regards,

Dmitri Gabinski
 
 
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Hi Dima,

> (by the way, 
> I've sent also Esperanto properties, did you get it?)

Yes I did,
I'll include it to the release pack, though separate UI l10n is not
very good, as English User Help then reference English UI, so it may
lead to misunderstandings.

ciao
Maxym

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Maxym Mykhalchuk:

>> I've sent also Esperanto properties, did you get it?)
>
>Yes I did,
>I'll include it to the release pack, though separate UI l10n is not
>very good, as English User Help then reference English UI, so it may
>lead to misunderstandings.

I totally agree and take some action ;-) But I did not want to declare 
untill finished and am afraid, I won't finish by 20.12.2004. Maybe, 
we'll postpone it to 24.12? Or, if we'll cook the final build post New 
Year, no worry, Esperanto help will be there.

Best regards
 
 
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From: Dmitri Gabinski (gdkbnx@...)
Date: 2004/12/15 8:33:53a

> I think, that's superfluous=2E To get the basics explained, just RTFM!

Reading the FM means reading a very, very long document=2E  OmegaT can be =
used even without having read the FM=2E  All a smart user needs is a few b=
asic pointers=2E

Samuel

On Wednesday 15 December 2004 12:35, Samuel Murray wrote:

> Reading the FM means reading a very, very long document. 

I pruned the FM as radically as I dared. What's in there is pretty much 
essential. It's indexed, and Item 5 is a mini-tutorial entitled "Getting 
started - an example project". What more can a user ask for?!

Marc

To Sum up,

So you think it's worth showing "Getting Started"
(en_GettingStarted.html) page after startup of the OmegaT in the main
window?

Samuel, do you agree?

ciao
Maxym
--- Marc Prior <mail@...> wrote:

> On Wednesday 15 December 2004 12:35, Samuel Murray wrote:
> 
> > Reading the FM means reading a very, very long document. 
> 
> I pruned the FM as radically as I dared. What's in there is pretty
> much 
> essential. It's indexed, and Item 5 is a mini-tutorial entitled
> "Getting 
> started - an example project". What more can a user ask for?!
> 
> Marc
> 
> 
> 
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Marc Prior:

>What more can a user ask for?!

With that gorgeous manual, nothing — as to me. But some <censored> 
need splash screens and other <censored>. Are we smart humans or what? 
Why do we need to overload OmegaT with child toys? Don't we have other 
tasks in sight (about one I'm gonna write soon, by the way)?

Dmitri Gabinski
 
 
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On Wednesday 15 December 2004 14:24, Maxym Mykhalchuk wrote:
>
> So you think it's worth showing "Getting Started"
> (en_GettingStarted.html) page after startup of the OmegaT in the main
> window?

Personally, no. The one change I would consider is putting the Help texts 
under a top-level "Help" item rather than under the version number (if you 
haven't already done so). 

My philosophy is that it's reasonable to expect users to spend a few minutes 
reading about how to use a product. That expectation extends to clicking on 
"Help" and then on "Getting Started", which is a mini-tutorial. If users 
can't be expected to do that, they will probably start expecting us to do the 
translation for them next.

I also think that the final decision should be Dmitri's, even if he disagrees 
with the above. :-)

Marc

Maxym Mykhalchuk:

>To Sum up,
>
>So you think it's worth showing "Getting Started"
>(en_GettingStarted.html) page after startup of the OmegaT in the main
>window?
>
>Samuel, do you agree?

I DON'T AGREE! END DISFIGURING OMEGAT TODAY!

Dmitri Gabinski

P.S. This is not to say, I'm totally against such things. When OmegaT 
becomes big and fat (as happen to almost all programs), we'll need 
something like NetBeans' welcome screen (in fact, it's a Welcome 
project, but here it's irrelevant), but now OmegaT is not so complex.
 
 
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Marc Prior:

>Personally, no. The one change I would consider is putting the Help 
>texts 
>under a top-level "Help" item rather than under the version number 
>(if you 
>haven't already done so). 
>
>My philosophy is that it's reasonable to expect users to spend a few 
>minutes 
>reading about how to use a product. That expectation extends to 
>clicking on 
>"Help" and then on "Getting Started", which is a mini-tutorial. If 
>users 
>can't be expected to do that, they will probably start expecting us 
>to do the 
>translation for them next.

Wow, as if I said that (except, that I probably would now find such a 
fine wording :)

>I also think that the final decision should be Dmitri's, even if he 
>disagrees 
>with the above. :-)

See my previous letter for my opinion. Anyway, it's up to the coder, 
whether to load the program with the <censored> instead of caring 
about functionality.

Dmitri Gabinski
 
 
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On Wednesday 15 December 2004 14:32, Dmitri Gabinski wrote:
> Marc Prior:
> >What more can a user ask for?!
>
> With that gorgeous manual, nothing =97 as to me.=20

So we think alike. :-)

One user told me recently, in an online forum, that he had downloaded Omega=
T=20
but had been unable to get it to work. I asked him what he had done. Well, =
he=20
had unpacked the files into a directory, and then he had clicked on the one=
s=20
that looked most like an installation file. When nothing happened, he gave=
=20
up. "It didn't work".

OK, maybe the on-screen Help files could be a little less geeky. I did my=20
best, but I guess I'm a geek now, and that's one reason why I wanted to han=
d=20
over responsibility for them to someone else. I am also happy that the=20
installation procedure for Windows users has become easier. But users reall=
y=20
must be prepared to read at least the on-screen Help (not necessarily the=20
ASAD), and I don't honestly think the Help texts are particularly long or=20
difficult to understand.

Marc

Sorry about those last two rants of mine, but whatever solution we choose, 
someone will be unhappy. 

When I cut the Help texts down to a minimum, and put all the edge cases in the 
ASAD, some users complained about missing information in the Help texts. But 
other users think there is TOO MUCH information in the Help texts. You can't 
win! :-((

Marc

very first remarks:

en_OmegaT.html :
------------------------
	=95 	Easy Help system localization (and Belarusian, French, =
German,=20
Russian and Spanish l10ns)
should be:
	=95 	Easy Help system localization (and Belarusian, English, =
French,=20
German, Russian and Spanish l10ns)

(pretty obvious ;)
------------------------
	=95 	Changes in glossary file encodings (for details look at =
Translation=20
memory and glossary file formats

should be:
en_OmegaT.html :
	=95 	Changes in glossary file encodings (for details look at =
Translation=20
memory and glossary file formats)

(last parenthesis)
------------------------
------------------------
en_Intro.html

instead of crediting Henry on the first page:

OmegaT is the work of Keith Godfrey.
Code has been contributed by: Henry ..., Sacha ..., Maxym (lead dvper=20
at the time of this release) etc...=

Marc Prior:

>One user told me recently, in an online forum, that he had downloaded 
>OmegaT 
>but had been unable to get it to work. I asked him what he had done. 
>Well, he 
>had unpacked the files into a directory, and then he had clicked on 
>the ones 
>that looked most like an installation file. When nothing happened, he 
>gave 
>up. "It didn't work".

I can't even figure, what can resemble an installation file in OmegaT 
package, as there's no “install” or “setup”. Those idiots must not be 
allowed to use computers at all!

Dmitri Gabinski
 
 
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JC Helary:

>en_Intro.html
>
>instead of crediting Henry on the first page:

Which page do you count as the first and what crediting do you refer 
to?

>OmegaT is the work of Keith Godfrey.
>Code has been contributed by: Henry ..., Sacha ..., Maxym (lead dvper 
>at the time of this release) etc...

Well, the omission points must be filled out, and no “etc”. Since most 
of the credits were inherited from the previous version, someone must 
update them: I can't do that as except for Maxym, Marc and you I know 
no other contributor (particularly, how they would wish to show up in 
the credits).

Dmitri Gabinski
 
 
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Code:
Keith (core code)
Maxym (current chief developer)
Henry and Benjamin (other contributors)

I think that's it on the code.

I would appreciate a mention as project co-ordinator, and I think the author 
of the Help texts (Dmitri and/or the translator of the respective language 
versions) should be mentioned on the main documentation page at least, if not 
in the main credits. That is important not least for copyright reasons.

Crediting everyone in the application itself is probably impossible. Beside 
the code and the documentation authors, there are testers (the unsung heroes, 
in my opinion), documentation translators, user group moderators (JC and 
Sabine) and contributors, web site designers (Camille), auxiliary code 
contributors (Ben, Sonja, me), and others. 

The project community has become so large that I have even considered a 
separate credits page on the web site. Thoughts?

Marc

Marc Prior <mail@...>:

>The project community has become so large that I have even considered 
>a 
>separate credits page on the web site. Thoughts?
I think, we already have sort of in the wiki page: the most names are 
there (and those who think they're forgotten can immortalize their 
names on their own as I did it :).

Dmitri Gabinski.
 
 
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From: Marc Prior (mail@...)
Date: 2004/12/14 5:31:58p

> On Tuesday 14 December 2004 16:22, Samuel Murray wrote:

> > Perhaps one could include a "quick start" page in OmegaT (when it 
> > loads, I think, would be good) which explains the basics in a single 
> > page.  OmegaT is pretty straightforward once one understands how to 
> > create, open and compile a project.  My2c.

> For example a button linking to the "Getting started - an example 
> project" page?

No extra buttons needed.  OmegaT has an opening screen.  You can put it there.

Samuel

From: Dmitri Gabinski (gdkbnx@...)
Date: 2004/12/15 3:35:57p

> Maxym Mykhalchuk:

> >So you think it's worth showing "Getting Started"
> >(en_GettingStarted.html) page after startup of the OmegaT in the main
> >window?

> I DON'T AGREE! END DISFIGURING OMEGAT TODAY!

I do recall an earlier version of OmegaT had exactly such a page upon startup.

Samuel

From: Marc Prior (mail@...)
Date: 2004/12/15 3:44:57p

> One user told me recently, in an online forum, that he had downloaded 
> OmegaT  but had been unable to get it to work=2E I asked him what he had=
 
> done=2E Well, he  had unpacked the files into a directory, and then he h=
ad 
> clicked on the ones  that looked most like an installation file=2E When =

> nothing happened, he gave  up=2E "It didn't work"=2E

Perhaps the tutorial or minitutorial should just feature bigger in the man=
ual=2E  I mean, much of the manual tells how to install OmegaT and how to =
get it running=2E  But by the time the user reads the manual (from within =
OmegaT), he has already successfully installed it and got it running=2E  T=
he manual is not a "getting started translating" manual=2E  I agree that m=
uch in the manual is useful, but personally I'd have a small tutorial (Get=
ting Started, as per the manual) for beginners, and the manual itself for =
intermediaries, and ASAD for power users=2E

No offence intended to the author of the manual=2E=2E=2E I mean my comment=
s as constructive criticism=2E

Samuel

El mi=C3=A9, 15-12-2004 a las 20:03 +0200, Samuel Murray escribi=C3=B3:
> From: Marc Prior (mail@...)
> Date: 2004/12/15 3:44:57p
>=20
> > One user told me recently, in an online forum, that he had
> downloaded=20
> > OmegaT  but had been unable to get it to work. I asked him what he
> had=20
> > done. Well, he  had unpacked the files into a directory, and then he
> had=20
> > clicked on the ones  that looked most like an installation file.
> When=20
> > nothing happened, he gave  up. "It didn't work".
>=20
> Perhaps the tutorial or minitutorial should just feature bigger in the
> manual.  I mean, much of the manual tells how to install OmegaT and
> how to get it running.  But by the time the user reads the manual
> (from within OmegaT), he has already successfully installed it and got
> it running.

Perhaps a possible solution would be fusing two help files, "System
Requirements" & "Installation and configuration" in one "Start Here"
html file, and placing it with OmegaT.jar & co. in the first directory
any user will see after unzipping the application.

Juan

Samuel Murray:

>I mean, much of the manual tells how to install OmegaT 
>and how to get it running.  But by the time the user reads the manual 
>(from within OmegaT), he has already successfully installed it and 
>got it running.

If he reads the manual from OmegaT, that's correct, but the user can 
also read it with a browser.

>I agree that much in the manual is useful, but personally 
>I'd have a small tutorial (Getting Started, as per the manual) for 
>beginners, and the manual itself for intermediaries, and ASAD for 
>power users.

That's what we have now: the documents delivered with OmegaT are not 
so big and tell mainly basic things. And the ASAD manual is for those 
who want to dig dipper.

I think, we are drifting away from the initial proposition: to have or 
not to have some start screen in OmegaT, and the discussion turning 
useless.

Dmitri Gabinski
 
 
---
Открылся самый большой автоцентр в Беларуси. Новый автоцентр Mazda.
Минск, ул.Лещинского, 4. Подробности на сайте - http://www.mazda.by

Dmitri Gabinski skryf om 6:01 PM op 15/12/2004:

> I think, we already have sort of in the wiki page: the most names are 
> there (and those who think they're forgotten can immortalize their 
> names on their own as I did it :).

Where is the WIKI-page?  I can't find it linked-to from the OmT web site.

Samuel

Samuel Murray:

>Where is the WIKI-page?  I can't find it linked-to from the OmT web 
>site.

http://wiki.wesolveitnet.com/wakka.php?wakka=OmegaTLocalisation.

Dmitri Gabinski
 
 
---
Открылся самый большой автоцентр в Беларуси. Новый автоцентр Mazda.
Минск, ул.Лещинского, 4. Подробности на сайте - http://www.mazda.by