FreeMind

Hi all,

because periods between two FreeMind releases are quite long,
because releasing a version with a code having "smells" is not good,
because there is no error free software, and we and the community 
perform tests and always release some beta versions before producing the 
release,

I am sure that the refactoring happened at the right time.

Regards, Dimitry

Hi Dimitry,

all right. It is exactly that because FreeMind releases are too long that
refactoring should not happen before planned release. Surely you have the
right to refactor anyway. You are a major developer, surely much more so
than I. It is just that other people bear the cost of your actions in the
end. I just wanted to remind you of the fact that the costs are there, in
the hope that you will take it into consideration.

FreeMind 0.8.0 has been released 2005-09-10. Today is 2007-07-05. Seeing how
things are going with the process discipline, I would be surprised if we had
0.9.0 final in this year. There are many new major features, and we can
expect a long and tiresome testing phase. We will have a 2-year delay
between the final releases, for no good reasons with the exception of a lack
of discipline. In my private version of FreeMind, I have several features I
would be happy to see released, just that unlike you, I stick to discipline,
just like I did for the version 0.8.0. It is simply that I value that
FreeMind users should get the product in reasonable time. I thought you
might consider valuing that too.

Best regards,
Dan


On 7/3/07, Dimitry Polivaev <dpolivaev@...> wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> because periods between two FreeMind releases are quite long,
> because releasing a version with a code having "smells" is not good,
> because there is no error free software, and we and the community
> perform tests and always release some beta versions before producing the
> release,
>
> I am sure that the refactoring happened at the right time.
>
> Regards, Dimitry
>
>
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Hi Dan,
> It is just that other people bear the cost of your actions in the end. 

What kind of costs do you mean?

> FreeMind 0.8.0 has been released 2005-09-10. Today is 2007-07-05. Seeing how
> things are going with the process discipline, I would be surprised if we had
> 0.9.0 final in this year. 

Why are you so pessimistic?

> There are many new major features, and we can expect a long and 
> tiresome testing phase. We will have a 2-year delay between the final
>  releases, for no good reasons with the exception of a lack of 
> discipline. In my private version of FreeMind, I have several 
> features I would be happy to see released, just that unlike you, I 
> stick to discipline, just like I did for the version 0.8.0. It is
> simply that I value that FreeMind users should get the product in
> reasonable time. I thought you might consider valuing that too.

 From my point of view there is no reason for postponing your 
improvements. I would appreciate if you could post patches or at least 
ideas.

I do not see how just waiting of release could help to create it. What 
is missed for creating of the new beta? If it is lack of tests, let us 
publish a new alpha and wait for new bug reports.

I think that not a "lack of discipline" but lack of process is the main 
reason for the delay. I mean that efforts of developers and other 
community members could be better coordinated by clearly formulating of 
the next tasks, defining responsibilities and communicating the progress.

What do YOU think?

Best regards, Dimitry

Hello Dimitry,

I do not understand what you do not understand. New features introduce new
bugs. New refactoring introduces new bugs. Thus, adding new features and
refactoring increase the overall number of bugs that remain to be fixed
until the final release, leading to further delay. Also, both add to the
overall need for discussion, for disagreement about details of the features
and their final appearance.

I am not going to post any patch until the final release 0.9.0 is out.

The name of the game is attention and attention span of the team. Human
beings have limited attention span. If the limited attention is devoted to
new features and architecture, it cannot be same time be devoted to looking
for bugs and to fine tuning.

The cost of refactoring for other people is that (a) there are more emails
to read, (b) more bugs to be investigated and reported, and (c) that the
final release is delayed. A significant delay is a significant cost, unless
you expect to live eternally.

As regards the process that you say is lacking, immediately stopping adding
new features and stopping refactoring would be a significant step to make
the final release happen. A flexible process is in place and running. As
soon as there is a RC1, I will start testing and reporting bugs. So far RC1
is not there, as there are still bugs you and Chris are aware of. If there
were no refactoring, no tabs feature and no allegedly urgent feature that
changes the colors of the selected node, beta 10 could have already been
out, or perhaps even RC1.

Best regards,
Dan

> As regards the process that you say is lacking, immediately stopping adding
> new features and stopping refactoring would be a significant step to make
> the final release happen. A flexible process is in place and running. As
> soon as there is a RC1, I will start testing and reporting bugs. So far RC1
> is not there, as there are still bugs you and Chris are aware of. If there
> were no refactoring, no tabs feature and no allegedly urgent feature that
> changes the colors of the selected node, beta 10 could have already been
> out, or perhaps even RC1.

Currently I am not aware of any important bugs.
Dimitry

Dear All,

I would like you to stop the discussion about the sense of refactorings
etc. We are still in beta phase
and the bugs don't stop us to publish more beta versions.

I supported Dimitry in the refactorings (IMHO FreeMind does need many
more of them) and I support Dimitrys proposal to give the colors a chance.

I also expect more reactions from the audience,
if we publish for example the version with Dimitrys changes taking the
standard OS colors.

Dimitry: should I publish Beta10 now?

Best regards, Chris

> Dimitry: should I publish Beta10 now?
Yes, you can. Dimitry

But update from CVS before: I have just removed a bug introduced by the 
SimplyHTML Patch of Dan.

Hi,

I could fix the SimplyHTML bug with accented characters.

Please update your CVS before building the next beta release

Dimitry

Hello Chris,

if the fact that we are still in beta phase is enough reason to never stop
adding new features, we will hardly ever get out of that phase. I know that
you supported Dimitry in refactoring. Refactoring introduced new errors,
exactly like I expected and pointed out. Obviously, you do not care about
heading to the final release soon. I just wanted to make it clear that you,
Chris and Dimitry, do mind that the final release is being postponed. You
care more about fulfilling your personal wishes. That should be made clear
and explicit. Once it is made explicit, I have nothing more to say on the
issue.

Best regards,
Dan

Hi Dimitry,
I would like to report a little -not urgent- thing:
if you have a rich text node and press for example "bold", nothing
happens. Do you see a solution for this?

Regards Chris

PS. I'll try to get the beta out sunday or monday.

Dimitry Polivaev schrieb:
>> Dimitry: should I publish Beta10 now?
>>     
> Yes, you can. Dimitry
>
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>

> if you have a rich text node and press for example "bold", nothing
> happens. Do you see a solution for this?

If I have create a rich text node without bold formatting and press 
"bold" it becomes bold.

Dimitry

Hello Chris,

could you please use a dedicated thread for reporting further bugs? The
title of this thread is "Refactoring when going to release no good idea".
Thank you.

Best regards,
Dan


On 7/8/07, Christian Foltin (GMX) <christian.foltin@...> wrote:
>
> Hi Dimitry,
> I would like to report a little -not urgent- thing:
> if you have a rich text node and press for example "bold", nothing
> happens. Do you see a solution for this?
>
> Regards Chris
>
> PS. I'll try to get the beta out sunday or monday.
>
> Dimitry Polivaev schrieb:
> >> Dimitry: should I publish Beta10 now?
> >>
> > Yes, you can. Dimitry
>

Hi all,

hopefully some of the last tiresome words from me on the development process
follow.

After thinking more about the previous discussion, I noticed that when you
argue that "we are still in beta phase", I do not even know what such a beta
phase could be. From what I know, there is a construction phase AKA
development phase AKA implementation phase, and there is a testing phase.
Testing phase is such that no new features are added; the only things added
are bug fixes. The version at the end of the development phase can hardly
bear the label release candidate. Thus, beta versions are being released
both during construction phase and during testing phase. What matters is not
whether we are in beta phase whatever that means, but rather whether we are
in the construction phase or in the testing phase.

I infer from the previous discussions that you have chosen to stay in the
construction phase. I cannot do anything about it, but I find it
unfortunate.

Best regards,
Dan

Hi Dan,

no problem.

Best regards

Chris