Cream (for Vim)

On Sun, 2003-06-29 at 11:00, Dave W wrote:
>
> For the most part I'm really enjoying using Cream (v0.22, in Debian
> Sid, more or less <actually Libranet linux>).  I'm using it
> primarily as editor for email (mutt; v1.5.4i, I think).  
> 
> I've managed to get rid of the annoying shift-space behaviour after
> reading the archives and commenting out a line, but there are still
> some things that confuse me <g>.

Heh, that will be gone permenantly next release. ;)


> First, when I reply to an email using mutt, it appears to not be
> considered a text file.  

If you use :echo &filetype, what do you get?


> When editing a reply, it's named /tmp/mutt-mydomainname-somenumber.
> I guess because there is no ".txt" extension, cream thinks it's not
> text.  I'm not sure if this is ever a problem, but when playing
> around (or trying to) with the tools / addons / email prettyfier, I
> get an error message, "Function only designed for text files, please
> check this document's filetype."  Is there a way to force cream/gvim
> to assume it's text?

In the addons/cream-formatter.vim function Cream_email_formatter(),
change the first grouping of lines to include the "email" filetype
check as below:

	if &filetype != "txt" &&
	\  &filetype != "email" &&
	\  &filetype != ""

Does that help?


> Second, I can't figure out what's happening when I either save and
> exit (after editing mutt email) or just ctrl-F4 exit.  Mutt tells me
> "abort unmodified message?" as if I didn't actually edit and change
> anything, when it's clear that changes WERE made.  This doesn't
> happen using plain old gvim as editor.

Hmm... I've never used g/Vim with Mutt, but the statement sounds like
a Mutt one. I wonder if there is some response it is waiting for? If
you can research it I'll be glad to modify Cream to help you.


> Third, is it possible to have normal cut and paste behaviour?  I'm
> used to just highlighting with the mouse and middle-clicking to
> paste, and it seems I have to use ctrl-c / ctrl-v ... am I missing
> something here?

I have to laugh at your use of the word "normal". 'Tis a vile
thing, middle-mouse pasting. /me ducks :)) 

Seriously, if you want the old unix middle-mouse paste behavior, just
add these lines to your cream-user.vim:

  set guioptions+=a
  imap <silent> <MiddleMouse> <C-o>:call Cream_paste("i")<CR>

If you also want it to work in visual mode, also add this:

  vmap <silent> <MiddleMouse> :<C-u>call Cream_paste("r")<CR>


> And last, where are the addons documented?  I see a one-line
> description in the addons/cream-email-formatter.vim file but that's
> it. 

The add-ons are documented at the bottom of the Features web page. You
can also read more about how they are implemented toward the bottom of
the FAQ. 


> It would be nice to have different quote levels at different levels,
> and I'd like to see if the prettifier does that as well.

Not sure I understand, can you give an example?


> This is a great improvement over generic gvim.  Keep up the good
> work!

Thanks for writing. Please let us know if you figure out the Mutt
problem.


--
Steve Hall  [ digitect@... ]

Cream... the Vim text editor in sheep's clothing!
  http://cream.sourceforge.net

On Sun, 2003-06-29 at 20:35, Dave W wrote:
> * Steve Hall <digitect@...> [2003-06-29 18:02:00 -0400]:
> >
> > If you use :echo &filetype, what do you get?
> 
> Well, tell me what I'm missing.

To get to normal mode from insertmode, just type Ctrl+L. (Or for one
command only, Ctrl+O.)


> > Hmm... I've never used g/Vim with Mutt, but the statement sounds
> > like a Mutt one. I wonder if there is some response it is waiting
> > for? If you can research it I'll be glad to modify Cream to help
> > you.
> 
> Is it possible cream/gvim changes the filename or something like that?

It shouldn't. Just a guess, but Mutt might pass a temporary name to
the Vim server and request the edited file back. Cream's autocmd
structure probably would omit this return (if one is expected), but I
really don't know how Mutt uses Vim to say for sure.


> Someone on the mutt list suggested cream, so I'll ask there :)  I
> didn't want to ask too many editor questions and be found too far
> off-topic.

Hopefully someone there uses them together or can help us understand
what *should* happen.


> > I have to laugh at your use of the word "normal". 'Tis a vile
> > thing, middle-mouse pasting. /me ducks :)) 
> 
> What is normal, then?  I thought that was normal *nix behaviour.

It is, but us former Apple/Windows users think of this as broken
interface. (Classic example: I want to copy a link from my text
document to my browser's Address box... so I highlight the link in the
doc and go to the browser. There's already a URL there, so, not
knowing about Ctrl+U, I do the intuitive thing and select that URL and
press Delete. In doing so, I've replaced my desired URL with the one I
just deleted.) 

I'm a GNOME fan on *n?x, so the standard CUA Ctrl+X/C/V shortcuts are
available in my environment. Never figured many Cream users would want
the classic X behavior.


> I hate to sound like a newbie but should I create the cream-user.vim
> file?  I don't have one anywhere under .cream/ ... Or should it be
> the cream-gui.vim file?

Check the second question in the FAQ section "Advanced Vim Users". Let
me know if that helps.


> > > It would be nice to have different quote levels at different
> > > levels, and I'd like to see if the prettifier does that as well.
> > 
> > Not sure I understand, can you give an example?
> 
> ">" is of course the normal quote character.  In mutt, if there is one
> level of quotes, it's one color (at least the way I have it set up);
two
> levels, another, and so on.  Makes it easier to keep track of levels
of
> quotations.

Oh, so each depth of indention is a different color? That's an
interesting concept. How many levels does it support?


--
Steve Hall  [ digitect@... ]

Cream... the Vim text editor in sheep's clothing!
  http://cream.sourceforge.net

On Sun, 2003-06-29 at 22:57, Dave W wrote:
> Steve Hall <digitect@...> [2003-06-29 22:31:11 -0400]:
> >
> > To get to normal mode from insertmode, just type Ctrl+L. (Or for
> > one command only, Ctrl+O.)
> 
> It works!  Thanks!

Great!


> > [Middle Mouse paste] 
> >
> > but us former Apple/Windows users think of this as broken
> > interface.
> 
> Okay, I understand :)  I _thought_ there was a subtle windows or mac
> bias in the docs!  

Heh, just a tiny bit. ;)


> I would highlight the link in the doc, go to the browser, ctrl-u,
> middle-click.  Roughly the same number of steps,

Indeed. The only issue is knowing Ctrl+U. (Well, maybe also that
Ctrl+U requires two hands on the keyboard for me--I don't like to drop
the mouse unless I'm actually typing.)


> > Oh, so each depth of indention is a different color? That's an
> > interesting concept. How many levels does it support?
> 
> In mutt, as far as displaying the existing message, it supports as
> many levels as you're prepared to create a .muttrc for :)
> Essentially endless.  I think I stopped mine at eight levels...
> It's really nice, I think most people would like it.

I like it! I tried a test with three levels, each indention fading a
bit more than the one after it. While multiple colors sounds too
confusing, three shades of one could work in most color schemes.


--
Steve Hall  [ digitect@... ]

Cream... the Vim text editor in sheep's clothing!
  http://cream.sourceforge.net

On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 10:31:11PM -0400, Steve Hall wrote:
> > > I have to laugh at your use of the word "normal". 'Tis a vile
> > > thing, middle-mouse pasting. /me ducks :)) 
> > 
> > What is normal, then?  I thought that was normal *nix behaviour.
> 
> It is, but us former Apple/Windows users think of this as broken
> interface. (Classic example: I want to copy a link from my text
> document to my browser's Address box... so I highlight the link in the
> doc and go to the browser. There's already a URL there, so, not
> knowing about Ctrl+U, I do the intuitive thing and select that URL and
> press Delete. In doing so, I've replaced my desired URL with the one I
> just deleted.) 

That's why you can middle-mouse paste a URL into the background of any
Mozilla, Galeon, etc. window, and the URL will be loaded into that
window.   It's also why there's an widget in Konqueror that lets you
clear the Address box without selecting the text in it.
 
> I'm a GNOME fan on *n?x, so the standard CUA Ctrl+X/C/V shortcuts are
> available in my environment. Never figured many Cream users would want
> the classic X behavior.

Oh, yes we do.  I mentioned to you once before that I think this is one
place where Cream's default behaviour should be OS-dependent.  So there
are at least two of us. :-)

Peter

* Peter Heslin <pj@...> [2003-07-02 14:44:37 +0100]:

> > I'm a GNOME fan on *n?x, so the standard CUA Ctrl+X/C/V shortcuts are
> > available in my environment. Never figured many Cream users would want
> > the classic X behavior.
> 
> Oh, yes we do.  I mentioned to you once before that I think this is one
> place where Cream's default behaviour should be OS-dependent.  So there
> are at least two of us. :-)
> 
> Peter

My gut feeling is that since gvim/vim are (maybe I'm wrong here?)
primarily *nix apps then most users would be used to the *nix way of cut
and paste, which is (once you get used to it) faster and easier than the
highlight / ctrl-c / ctrl-v method.  Highlight / middle-click is just
faster :)

I'm sure the fine folks who put cream together will make it an option :)
They've sure made a fine product so far, after all...

dave williamson

On Wed, 2003-07-02 at 09:44, Peter Heslin wrote:
> On Sun, Jun 29, 2003 at 10:31:11PM -0400, Steve Hall wrote:
> >
> > > > 'Tis a vile thing, middle-mouse pasting. /me ducks :)) 
> > > 
> > > What is normal, then?  I thought that was normal *nix behaviour.
> > 
> > It is, but us former Apple/Windows users think of this as broken
> > interface. (Classic example: I want to copy a link from my text
> > document to my browser's Address box... so I highlight the link in
> > the doc and go to the browser. There's already a URL there, so,
> > not knowing about Ctrl+U, I do the intuitive thing and select that
> > URL and press Delete. In doing so, I've replaced my desired URL
> > with the one I just deleted.) 
> 
> That's why you can middle-mouse paste a URL into the background of
> any Mozilla, Galeon, etc. window, and the URL will be loaded into
> that window.   It's also why there's an widget in Konqueror that
> lets you clear the Address box without selecting the text in it.

I can't speak to Konqueror, but the Mozilla example strikes me as
quite unintuitive. The behavior is not consistent if I do the same
over the Address/URL box, the very place I would expect it to behave
this way.

Another reason for disabling this behavior is that it caused some of
my office colleagues to randomly paste all over their documents simply
by using the scroll wheel. Granted, the mice were as poor a quality as
you could find (MS Wheel Mouse, first version IIRC) but I had more
than a few errors show up in my intranet project until then. ;)

Honestly, my biggest beef with Middle Mouse selection pasting is that
using selection as a way to delete is so intuitive.


> > I'm a GNOME fan on *n?x, so the standard CUA Ctrl+X/C/V shortcuts
> > are available in my environment. Never figured many Cream users
> > would want the classic X behavior.
> 
> Oh, yes we do.  I mentioned to you once before that I think this is
> one place where Cream's default behaviour should be OS-dependent.
> So there are at least two of us. :-)

The revolt begins...


--
Steve Hall  [ digitect@... ]

Cream... the Vim text editor in sheep's clothing!
  http://cream.sourceforge.net

On Wed, 2003-07-02 at 14:46, Dave Williamson wrote:
> 
> ...most users would be used to the *nix way of cut and paste...
> 
> I'm sure the fine folks who put cream together will make it an
> option :) They've sure made a fine product so far, after all...

/me fearfully peeps out at the pitchfork-wielding, torch-carrying
townspeople gathering below near the base of the desolate tower...


--
Steve Hall  [ digitect@... ]

Cream... the Vim text editor in sheep's clothing!
  http://cream.sourceforge.net

* Steve Hall <digitect@...> [2003-07-02 23:38:07 -0400]:
> > I'm sure the fine folks who put cream together will make it an
> > option :) They've sure made a fine product so far, after all...
> 
> /me fearfully peeps out at the pitchfork-wielding, torch-carrying
> townspeople gathering below near the base of the desolate tower...

It's all about flexibility :)  Perhaps the linux version could be built
with "normal" linux cut and paste, and the windows version could be
built with "normal" windows cut and paste, and then the user doesn't
even have to think about it.

dave w

On Thu, 2003-07-03 at 08:09, Dave W wrote:
> 
> It's all about flexibility :)  Perhaps the linux version could be
> built with "normal" linux cut and paste, and the windows version
> could be built with "normal" windows cut and paste, and then the
> user doesn't even have to think about it.

The goal is to keep all platforms as close as possible, since we view
this project as a stepping stone for Apple/Windows users to GUI Linux.
The Unix-style middle-mouse paste will be off by default, although
once changed, remembered across sessions and upgrades. Hopefully,
that's flexible enough for you. :))


--
Steve Hall  [ digitect@... ]

Cream... the Vim text editor in sheep's clothing!
  http://cream.sourceforge.net

* Steve Hall <digitect@...> [2003-07-03 22:17:49 -0400]:
> 
> The goal is to keep all platforms as close as possible, since we view
> this project as a stepping stone for Apple/Windows users to GUI Linux.
> The Unix-style middle-mouse paste will be off by default, although
> once changed, remembered across sessions and upgrades. Hopefully,
> that's flexible enough for you. :))

Works for me!  Sounds great.

dave w