Indian Linux (IndLinux)

Hello,

Some years ago we had decided to create a linux equivalent for the very
popular Windows-based Baraha software, so that linux users would have
access to this same keyboard setup for all Indian languages. We first
set it up for Hindi, and when that was working well then Gora Mohanty
made similar keymaps for several other Indian languages. This was all
done using m17n.

At the time I was very keen to get the Hindi (hi-baraha.mim) keymap
working well, and indeed we got it working perfectly.

Now I am needing to work with Bangla, and have found that in the
bn-baraha.mim file there are two issues. If someone here can give me a
hand to solve these, I will be extremely grateful.

Here are the two issues:

1. The Bengali script equivalent of ऋ is not working. In the Baraha
keymap, the code for this letter is "Ru". When I try to type this
character, it appears only as "Rউ" rather than the Bengali letter ऋ. All
the other letters in the keymap work; only this one does not.

2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has only
"ba" (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali script
need a character for "va", and for that a convention has been adopted
that the Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the sound "va".
And for "ba", the character is slightly changed i.e. with a line through
the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" , just as is done in
devanagari.

So to achieve this, I moved the "ব"  over to the "va" location in the
keymap (bn-baraha.mim file). I then found somewhere the changed version
of the character i.e. with the line through the bottom portion (पेट कटा
हुआ), and put this new character "ৰ" , in at the "ba" location in the
keymap file. But all consonants must be entered using the halant form
i.e. half-form, and I could not manage to enter this character with a
halant. Due to this, the character is not working properly i.e. will not
combine with other letters when needed, to form conjunct characters.

I am attaching here the bn-baraha.mim as originally created, and then
the changed version (for attaching, I have changed its name to "new
bn-baraha.mim") where I have moved the "ba" letter over to the "va"
location, and for "ba" placed the full rather than halant version of
"ba".

Someone please kindly help with these two needed repairs.

Thanks,
Swarup

Namaste,

I am not the expert or a person who could directly help you with there, but I 
felt the urge (not need) to applaud your approach 

> 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has only
> "ba" (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali script
> need a character for "va", and for that a convention has been adopted
> that the Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the sound "va".
> And for "ba", the character is slightly changed i.e. with a line through
> the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" , just as is done in
> devanagari.

here above, and if I was a teacher I would give be tempted to give you cent 
percent marks meaning full grade for your constructive efforts... on 
understanding the needs of the scholars... & salute to those who guide you in 
your endeavours!! 

-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 08:04 , Swarup wrote:

>
> 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has only "ba"
> (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali script need a
> character for "va", and for that a convention has been adopted that the
> Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the sound "va". And for "ba",
> the character is slightly changed i.e. with a line through the bottom portion
> (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" , just as is done in devanagari.
>

Would you be able to point me to any document or link for this convention?

Afaik, the character ৰ was at some point (way before Ishwar Chandra Bidyasagar's
time) used to represent 'Ra', but was then changed to the present form র. It is
still used in the present Assamese script as the 'Ra'. There used to be another
ব placed in the consonant (byanjan barna) sequence after ল and before শ, known
as the 'antastya ba', which presently is determined phonetically depending upon
the word it is used in (an analogy could be on how the alphabet 'c' is used in
English). However, it did not have any difference in appearance with the regular
'ba'. For instance, in the word 'বিল্ব' (pronounced as 'bil-wa') the first 'ba'
represents 'ba' and and the second that has been used in the conjunct has a 'va'
(or rather a 'wa') sound.

> So to achieve this, I moved the "ব"  over to the "va" location in the keymap
> (bn-baraha.mim file). I then found somewhere the changed version of the
> character i.e. with the line through the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), and
> put this new character "ৰ" , in at the "ba" location in the keymap file.

IMO, the representation of 'ba' and 'antastya ba' (if at all) on the keymap
ought to be the other way round. The former is pronounced as 'ba' and the latter
is used for the words where the phonetic 'va' is to be used.

Hope this helps

regards
Runa

-- 
blog: http://arrbee.wordpress.com
irc: arrbee or runa_b on Freenode
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 11:12 +0530, ॐ wrote:
> Namaste,
> 
> 
> I am not the expert or a person who could directly help you with
> there, but I felt the urge (not need) to applaud your approach 
> 
> 
> > 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has
> only
> 
> > "ba" (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali
> script
> 
> > need a character for "va", and for that a convention has been
> adopted
> 
> > that the Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the sound
> "va".
> 
> > And for "ba", the character is slightly changed i.e. with a line
> through
> 
> > the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" , just as is done
> in
> 
> > devanagari.
> 
> 
> here above, and if I was a teacher I would give be tempted to give you
> cent percent marks meaning full grade for your constructive efforts...
> on understanding the needs of the scholars... & salute to those who
> guide you in your endeavours!! 

Thank you, brother, for your support :-)

Regards,
Swarup

Only suggestion I can make is using a story of why there is a serpent around 
Ganeshji's waist, 

Instead of calling it पेट कटा हुआ, Just use the words... पेट फटा हुआ.

I am not able to read bengali script or many of the indian ones, but this is 
is kept active on my lappy just to show my point...

ପେଟ ଫଟା ହୁଆ

It is probably Oriya, now called Odisha or something appropriate...



On Thursday 29 Mar 2012 8:04:02 AM Swarup wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> Some years ago we had decided to create a linux equivalent for the very
> popular Windows-based Baraha software, so that linux users would have
> access to this same keyboard setup for all Indian languages. We first
> set it up for Hindi, and when that was working well then Gora Mohanty
> made similar keymaps for several other Indian languages. This was all
> done using m17n.
> 
> At the time I was very keen to get the Hindi (hi-baraha.mim) keymap
> working well, and indeed we got it working perfectly.
> 
> Now I am needing to work with Bangla, and have found that in the
> bn-baraha.mim file there are two issues. If someone here can give me a
> hand to solve these, I will be extremely grateful.
> 
> Here are the two issues:
> 
> 1. The Bengali script equivalent of ऋ is not working. In the Baraha
> keymap, the code for this letter is "Ru". When I try to type this
> character, it appears only as "Rউ" rather than the Bengali letter ऋ. All
> the other letters in the keymap work; only this one does not.
> 
> 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has only
> "ba" (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali script
> need a character for "va", and for that a convention has been adopted
> that the Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the sound "va".
> And for "ba", the character is slightly changed i.e. with a line through
> the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" , just as is done in
> devanagari.
> 
> So to achieve this, I moved the "ব"  over to the "va" location in the
> keymap (bn-baraha.mim file). I then found somewhere the changed version
> of the character i.e. with the line through the bottom portion (पेट कटा
> हुआ), and put this new character "ৰ" , in at the "ba" location in the
> keymap file. But all consonants must be entered using the halant form
> i.e. half-form, and I could not manage to enter this character with a
> halant. Due to this, the character is not working properly i.e. will not
> combine with other letters when needed, to form conjunct characters.
> 
> I am attaching here the bn-baraha.mim as originally created, and then
> the changed version (for attaching, I have changed its name to "new
> bn-baraha.mim") where I have moved the "ba" letter over to the "va"
> location, and for "ba" placed the full rather than halant version of
> "ba".
> 
> Someone please kindly help with these two needed repairs.
> 
> Thanks,
> Swarup

-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:31 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 08:04 , Swarup wrote:
> 
> >
> > 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has only "ba"
> > (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali script need a
> > character for "va", and for that a convention has been adopted that the
> > Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the sound "va". And for "ba",
> > the character is slightly changed i.e. with a line through the bottom portion
> > (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" , just as is done in devanagari.
> >
> 
> Would you be able to point me to any document or link for this convention?
> 
> Afaik, the character ৰ was at some point (way before Ishwar Chandra Bidyasagar's
> time) used to represent 'Ra', but was then changed to the present form র. It is
> still used in the present Assamese script as the 'Ra'. There used to be another
> ব placed in the consonant (byanjan barna) sequence after ল and before শ, known
> as the 'antastya ba', which presently is determined phonetically depending upon
> the word it is used in (an analogy could be on how the alphabet 'c' is used in
> English). However, it did not have any difference in appearance with the regular
> 'ba'. For instance, in the word 'বিল্ব' (pronounced as 'bil-wa') the first 'ba'
> represents 'ba' and and the second that has been used in the conjunct has a 'va'
> (or rather a 'wa') sound.
> 
> > So to achieve this, I moved the "ব"  over to the "va" location in the keymap
> > (bn-baraha.mim file). I then found somewhere the changed version of the
> > character i.e. with the line through the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), and
> > put this new character "ৰ" , in at the "ba" location in the keymap file.
> 
> IMO, the representation of 'ba' and 'antastya ba' (if at all) on the keymap
> ought to be the other way round. The former is pronounced as 'ba' and the latter
> is used for the words where the phonetic 'va' is to be used.

Here my point, or my need, is not so much to research which letter is to
be used where-- but rather that a separate letter is indeed needed for
the expression of ba and va. My question is merely a technical one-- I
need a letter "ৰ"-halant. If someone can supply me with that, then this
problem will be solved. (For example, in devanagarii it would
be ब्‌  i.e. in contrast to ब |) I need the equivalent of ब्‌ in bengali
script, to place in the bn-baraha.mim file.  

I also need to solve the ॠ and ॠ problem ("Ru" "ঋ", "RU" "ৠ")-- neither
of these are working in the bn-baraha.mim file for some reason.

Thanks,
Swarup

p.s. Runa ji, I will be delighted to discuss the above questions of
yours which are indeed very interesting. Just now I need to solve the
above pressing issues. And your point about 'বিল্ব' (pronounced as
'bil-wa') is indeed true-- my need now though is a separate one i.e. I
need a letter "wa" which can stand independently when needed i.e. not as
part of a conjunct. For example, in Sanskrit the word "vishva" needs to
be written and understood as विश्व and not बिश्व-- so as to
differentiate between that व, and the actual "b" sound such as the "b"
in buddhi, बुद्धि |

On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 04:53 , Swarup wrote:

> p.s. Runa ji, I will be delighted to discuss the above questions of yours
> which are indeed very interesting. Just now I need to solve the above
> pressing issues. And your point about 'বিল্ব' (pronounced as 'bil-wa') is
> indeed true-- my need now though is a separate one i.e. I need a letter "wa"
> which can stand independently when needed i.e. not as part of a conjunct. For
> example, in Sanskrit the word "vishva" needs to be written and understood as
> विश्व and not बिश्व-- so as to differentiate between that व, and the actual
> "b" sound such as the "b" in buddhi, बुद्धि |
>

Just like বিল্ব, विश्व is written as বিশ্ব and we know how to pronounce it right.
There isn't anything like ब्‌ in Bengali. You'll just need to go ahead create a
new character if its that important. :)


-- 
blog: http://arrbee.wordpress.com
irc: arrbee or runa_b on Freenode
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

On Thursday 29 Mar 2012 5:22:13 PM Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 04:53 , Swarup wrote:
> > p.s. Runa ji, I will be delighted to discuss the above questions of yours
> > which are indeed very interesting. Just now I need to solve the above
> > pressing issues. And your point about 'বিল্ব' (pronounced as 'bil-wa') is
> > indeed true-- my need now though is a separate one i.e. I need a letter
> > "wa" which can stand independently when needed i.e. not as part of a
> > conjunct. For example, in Sanskrit the word "vishva" needs to be written
> > and understood as विश्व and not बिश्व-- so as to differentiate between
> > that व, and the actual "b" sound such as the "b" in buddhi, बुद्धि |
> 
> Just like বিল্ব, विश्व is written as বিশ্ব and we know how to pronounce it
> right. There isn't anything like ब्‌ in Bengali. You'll just need to go
> ahead create a new character if its that important. :)

Wrong, we already have a character, it's just needs a glyph form for 
representation... and swaru:p may be, could be write in what he is trying...
-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 05:27 , ॐ wrote:

> Wrong, we already have a character, it's just needs a glyph form for
> representation... and swaru:p may be, could be write in what he is trying...

As I mentioned earlier... 'citation required' about the convention that was
mentioned. Are there any particular shlokhas which are falling apart due to
this missing character? Bengali is not written in Devanagari. It has a set of
characters which do not have 1-1 mappings with all the characters of Devanagari.
And has it own rules as a language, which I assume we are all in agreement here.
It makes me curious to know what obvious character is being questioned here.

regards
Runa


-- 
blog: http://arrbee.wordpress.com
irc: arrbee or runa_b on Freenode
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 18:27 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 05:27 , ॐ wrote:
> 
> > Wrong, we already have a character, it's just needs a glyph form for
> > representation... and swaru:p may be, could be write in what he is trying...
> 
> As I mentioned earlier... 'citation required' about the convention that was
> mentioned. Are there any particular shlokhas which are falling apart due to
> this missing character? Bengali is not written in Devanagari. It has a set of
> characters which do not have 1-1 mappings with all the characters of Devanagari.
> And has it own rules as a language, which I assume we are all in agreement here.
> It makes me curious to know what obvious character is being questioned here.

As I say, I will be delighted to discuss all these interesting matters.
But first, please help me to get a halant on the character "ৰ". I am in
pressing need to get this set up, and will then be happy to discuss all
the points. Someone here must know how to put a halant on the character
"ৰ" . This will be a great help to me, and to many others who are eager
to utilize this bahara keymap.

Regards,
Swarup

On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 07:38 , Swarup wrote:

>
> As I say, I will be delighted to discuss all these interesting matters. But
> first, please help me to get a halant on the character "ৰ". I am in pressing
> need to get this set up, and will then be happy to discuss all the points.
> Someone here must know how to put a halant on the character "ৰ" . This will
> be a great help to me, and to many others who are eager to utilize this
> bahara keymap.
>


WHY on earth would you want to add a halant to the Assamese 'Ra' to introduce it
into a Bengali keymap as an character completely unknown to us? It is as good as
adding a Gujarati character into the Hindi keymap and expecting your users to
use it as some kind of decoration.

Runa
-- 
blog: http://arrbee.wordpress.com
irc: arrbee or runa_b on Freenode
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 20:30 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 07:38 , Swarup wrote:
> 
> >
> > As I say, I will be delighted to discuss all these interesting matters. But
> > first, please help me to get a halant on the character "ৰ". I am in pressing
> > need to get this set up, and will then be happy to discuss all the points.
> > Someone here must know how to put a halant on the character "ৰ" . This will
> > be a great help to me, and to many others who are eager to utilize this
> > bahara keymap.
> >
> 
> 
> WHY on earth would you want to add a halant to the Assamese 'Ra' to introduce it
> into a Bengali keymap as an character completely unknown to us? It is as good as
> adding a Gujarati character into the Hindi keymap and expecting your users to
> use it as some kind of decoration.

Runa ji, I am not asking you to use it. I need to use it in my own work.
And I am in continuous contact with a number of Bengali friends and
colleagues who are also waiting for this very keymap. My request is a
technical one, stated above. This list is all about facilitating the use
of the various Indian languages in computer environments-- and this
keymap represents one such use.

I repeat my earnest appeal-- some on this list are knowledgeable about
such questions as what I have requested. 

1. I am in need of the character "ৰ" with halant.
2. I need to get the characters ("Ru" "ঋ") and ("RU" "ৠ") working in the
keymap.

File is again attached for your convenience.

Regards,
Swarup

p.s. As a side note, with all due respect you are not correct in your
assessment. The "ৰ"  has a completely legitimate use as Bengali "ba",
with precedent as well as strong scholarly interest.

On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:31 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 08:04 , Swarup wrote:
> 
> >
> > 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has only "ba"
> > (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali script need a
> > character for "va", and for that a convention has been adopted that the
> > Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the sound "va". And for "ba",
> > the character is slightly changed i.e. with a line through the bottom portion
> > (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" , just as is done in devanagari.
> >
> 
> Would you be able to point me to any document or link for this convention?

Runa Didi, 
I deeply appreciate your keen interest in Bangla, and your questions
reflect this interest. I am attaching here an excerpt from a book
explaining the importance of maintaining the distinction
between 'ব'' and 'ৰ';  in the following mail I shall attach two files
showing the relevant part of the Bangla varnamala with 'ব'' and 'ৰ'. 

By reading the excerpted section, the reason for distinguishing in
written form between the two letters 'ৰ' and 'ব ' will I think become
clear. If anyone has any further question, feel free to write and I will
be happy to discuss more. My thanks to all those who take interest in
this vital subject.


Regards,
Swarup

On শুক্রবার 30 মার্চ 2012 08:50 , Swarup wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:31 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
>> On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 08:04 , Swarup wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has only
>>> "ba" (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali script
>>> need a character for "va", and for that a convention has been adopted
>>> that the Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the sound "va".
>>>  And for "ba", the character is slightly changed i.e. with a line through
>>>  the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" , just as is done in
>>>  devanagari.
>>>
>>
>> Would you be able to point me to any document or link for this convention?
>
> Runa Didi, I deeply appreciate your keen interest in Bangla, and your
> questions reflect this interest. I am attaching here an excerpt from a book
> explaining the importance of maintaining the distinction between 'ব'' and
> 'ৰ';  in the following mail I shall attach two files showing the relevant
> part of the Bangla varnamala with 'ব'' and 'ৰ'.
>
> By reading the excerpted section, the reason for distinguishing in written
> form between the two letters 'ৰ' and 'ব ' will I think become clear. If
> anyone has any further question, feel free to write and I will be happy to
> discuss more. My thanks to all those who take interest in this vital
> subject.
>

What book is this part of? Besides saying the same thing that you have been
saying so far, none of those scanned images provide a citation of any
"legitimacy". Has this "change" (that'll impact the manual and digital writing
form of the language in epic proportions) been approved by the Paschim Banga
Bangla Akademy or any other Authority for the Bangla language?

At the risk of sounding repetitive -  ৰ was the ancient form of the alphabet
'Ra' (and not ontostyo 'ba' as claimed by your book) and was used in manuscripts
prior to the time of Bidyasagar's reforms, after which the present form র was
popularised and used in printing. This glyph has *no* connection to any form of
'ba' (borgiyo or antastya) at all. The Assamese however continued using the old
form of 'Ra' and still do. That is the very reason it is part of the Unicode
U0980 code chart (aka Bengali code chart) at U+09F0. Recently this has been
raised as a matter of dispute at Unicode where language authorities from the
state of Assam have claimed for a separate code chart for Assamese and to move
among others U+09F0 (i.e. ৰ) into the Assamese Code chart [1].

What you are trying to do will introduce a taint in the keymap and percolate
into the data that will be written using it.

Runa

[1] http://www.telegraphindia.com/1120224/jsp/frontpage/story_15173871.jsp

-- 
blog: http://arrbee.wordpress.com
irc: arrbee or runa_b on Freenode
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

On Thursday 29 Mar 2012 8:30:27 PM Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 07:38 , Swarup wrote:
> > As I say, I will be delighted to discuss all these interesting matters.
> > But first, please help me to get a halant on the character "ৰ". I am in
> > pressing need to get this set up, and will then be happy to discuss all
> > the points. Someone here must know how to put a halant on the character
> > "ৰ" . This will be a great help to me, and to many others who are eager
> > to utilize this bahara keymap.
> 
> WHY on earth would you want to add a halant to the Assamese 'Ra' to
> introduce it into a Bengali keymap as an character completely unknown to
> us? It is as good as adding a Gujarati character into the Hindi keymap and
> expecting your users to use it as some kind of decoration.
> 
> Runa

I may be the curious cat without attempting to get killed, in asking, if Runa 
is so convinced that it is Assamese 'Ra', why is she not writting it as an 
assamese glyph for others to make a studied comment on that same...

Is that out of fear psychosis or some intellectual thinking block... 

There is nothing wrong in such representations...

e.g. Devanagri numeral 5 looks very much like Gujarati प, 

As long as the person is defining it in the context of language of his choice, 
I, humbly, do see nothing wrong in it...
-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

To the list moderators:

Is this kind of personal ambush endorsed on the list?

regards
Runa

On শুক্রবার 30 মার্চ 2012 01:04 অপরাহ্ণ, ॐ wrote:

> I may be the curious cat without attempting to get killed, in asking, if Runa is
> so convinced that it is Assamese 'Ra', why is she not writting it as an assamese
> glyph for others to make a studied comment on that same...
>
>
> Is that out of fear psychosis or some intellectual thinking block...
>
>
> There is nothing wrong in such representations...
>
>
> e.g. Devanagri numeral 5 looks very much like Gujarati प,
>
>
> As long as the person is defining it in the context of language of his choice,
> I, humbly, do see nothing wrong in it...
> --
>
> ॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF email is sponsosred by:
> Try Windows Azure free for 90 days Click Here
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/sfd2d-msazure
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> IndLinux-group mailing list
> IndLinux-group@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/indlinux-group


-- 
blog: http://arrbee.wordpress.com
irc: arrbee or runa_b on Freenode
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

What is "ambush", 
in any of the indian languages described in schedule ??? 
of indian languages?

All are able to view the communication... and decide for themselves without 
needing to draw the attention of moderators or owners...

Is this a new way of suppressing the expression, that too the correct one?

On Friday 30 Mar 2012 2:00:11 PM Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> To the list moderators:
> 
> Is this kind of personal ambush endorsed on the list?
> 
> regards
> Runa
> 
> On শুক্রবার 30 মার্চ 2012 01:04 অপরাহ্ণ, ॐ wrote:
> > I may be the curious cat without attempting to get killed, in asking, if
> > Runa is so convinced that it is Assamese 'Ra', why is she not writting
> > it as an assamese glyph for others to make a studied comment on that
> > same...
> > 
> > 
> > Is that out of fear psychosis or some intellectual thinking block...
> > 
> > 
> > There is nothing wrong in such representations...
> > 
> > 
> > e.g. Devanagri numeral 5 looks very much like Gujarati प,
> > 
> > 
> > As long as the person is defining it in the context of language of his
> > choice, I, humbly, do see nothing wrong in it...
> > --
> > 
> > ॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----- This SF email is sponsosred by:
> > Try Windows Azure free for 90 days Click Here
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/sfd2d-msazure
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > _______________________________________________
> > IndLinux-group mailing list
> > IndLinux-group@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/indlinux-group

-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Friday 30 Mar 2012 10:25:06 AM Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> On শুক্রবার 30 মার্চ 2012 08:50 , Swarup wrote:
> > On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:31 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> >> On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 08:04 , Swarup wrote:
> >>> 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has only
> >>> "ba" (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali script
> >>> need a character for "va", and for that a convention has been adopted
> >>> that the Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the sound
> >>> "va".
> >>> 
> >>>  And for "ba", the character is slightly changed i.e. with a line
> >>>  through the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" , just as
> >>>  is done in devanagari.
> >> 
> >> Would you be able to point me to any document or link for this
> >> convention?
> > 
> > Runa Didi, I deeply appreciate your keen interest in Bangla, and your
> > questions reflect this interest. I am attaching here an excerpt from a
> > book explaining the importance of maintaining the distinction between
> > 'ব'' and 'ৰ';  in the following mail I shall attach two files showing
> > the relevant part of the Bangla varnamala with 'ব'' and 'ৰ'.
> > 
> > By reading the excerpted section, the reason for distinguishing in
> > written form between the two letters 'ৰ' and 'ব ' will I think become
> > clear. If anyone has any further question, feel free to write and I will
> > be happy to discuss more. My thanks to all those who take interest in
> > this vital subject.
> 
> What book is this part of? Besides saying the same thing that you have been
> saying so far, none of those scanned images provide a citation of any
> "legitimacy". Has this "change" (that'll impact the manual and digital
> writing form of the language in epic proportions) been approved by the
> Paschim Banga Bangla Akademy or any other Authority for the Bangla
> language?

How is it relevant as to which book this is part of?  isn't that an exercise 
for the people who don't know?

I think that's how, searach and computers came into existence, to unearth the 
hidden gems, to all others....
 

-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Friday 30 Mar 2012 8:50:57 AM Swarup wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:31 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> > On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 08:04 , Swarup wrote:
> > > 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has only
> > > "ba" (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali
> > > script need a character for "va", and for that a convention has been
> > > adopted that the Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the
> > > sound "va". And for "ba", the character is slightly changed i.e. with
> > > a line through the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" ,
> > > just as is done in devanagari.
> > 
> > Would you be able to point me to any document or link for this
> > convention?
> 
> Runa Didi,
> I deeply appreciate your keen interest in Bangla, and your questions
> reflect this interest. I am attaching here an excerpt from a book
> explaining the importance of maintaining the distinction
> between 'ব'' and 'ৰ';  in the following mail I shall attach two files
> showing the relevant part of the Bangla varnamala with 'ব'' and 'ৰ'.
> 
> By reading the excerpted section, the reason for distinguishing in
> written form between the two letters 'ৰ' and 'ব ' will I think become
> clear. If anyone has any further question, feel free to write and I will
> be happy to discuss more. My thanks to all those who take interest in
> this vital subject.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> Swarup

I think, there is no need to teach  বিবেকানংদ  to  a  बंगाली...  In his own words श्री 
रामकृष्ण मिशन पुस्तिका says,

"The truth does pay homage to any society, ancient or moden, society has to 
pay homage to truth or die!"

-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

Dear ॐ ,

If you want your writing to be noticed, either you remain ontopic or
mention OT tag in the subject line.

Regards



2012/3/30 ॐ <shirish@...>:
> On Friday 30 Mar 2012 8:50:57 AM Swarup wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:31 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
>
>> > On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 08:04 , Swarup wrote:
>
>> > > 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has
>> > > only
>
>> > > "ba" (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali
>
>> > > script need a character for "va", and for that a convention has been
>
>> > > adopted that the Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the
>
>> > > sound "va". And for "ba", the character is slightly changed i.e. with
>
>> > > a line through the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" ,
>
>> > > just as is done in devanagari.
>
>> >
>
>> > Would you be able to point me to any document or link for this
>
>> > convention?
>
>>
>
>> Runa Didi,
>
>> I deeply appreciate your keen interest in Bangla, and your questions
>
>> reflect this interest. I am attaching here an excerpt from a book
>
>> explaining the importance of maintaining the distinction
>
>> between 'ব'' and 'ৰ'; in the following mail I shall attach two files
>
>> showing the relevant part of the Bangla varnamala with 'ব'' and 'ৰ'.
>
>>
>
>> By reading the excerpted section, the reason for distinguishing in
>
>> written form between the two letters 'ৰ' and 'ব ' will I think become
>
>> clear. If anyone has any further question, feel free to write and I will
>
>> be happy to discuss more. My thanks to all those who take interest in
>
>> this vital subject.
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Regards,
>
>> Swarup
>
>
> I think, there is no need to teach বিবেকানংদ to a बंगाली... In his own words
> श्री रामकृष्ण मिशन पुस्तिका says,
>
>
> "The truth does pay homage to any society, ancient or moden, society has to
> pay homage to truth or die!"
>
>
> --
>
> ॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF email is sponsosred by:
> Try Windows Azure free for 90 days Click Here
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/sfd2d-msazure
> _______________________________________________
> IndLinux-group mailing list
> IndLinux-group@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/indlinux-group
>



-- 

~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!~!
web: http://www.sudhanwa.com  blog: http://www.sudhanwa.in
Twitter: sudhanwa Check on FB, Linkedin for more.

Hari ॐ,
 (I see yet another new mail id of yours!)

You could make your point politely than being directed at a person.
in your words, pointing finger at another, there are three pointing
at you!

On Fri, 30 Mar 2012 14:36:44 +0530
ॐ wrote:

> What is "ambush", 
> in any of the indian languages described in schedule ??? 
> of indian languages?
> 
> All are able to view the communication... and decide for themselves
> without needing to draw the attention of moderators or owners...
> 
> Is this a new way of suppressing the expression, that too the
> correct one?
> 
> On Friday 30 Mar 2012 2:00:11 PM Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> > To the list moderators:
> > 
> > Is this kind of personal ambush endorsed on the list?
> > 
> > regards
> > Runa
> > 
> > On শুক্রবার 30 মার্চ 2012 01:04 অপরাহ্ণ, ॐ wrote:
> > > I may be the curious cat without attempting to get killed, in
> > > asking, if Runa is so convinced that it is Assamese 'Ra', why
> > > is she not writting it as an assamese glyph for others to make
> > > a studied comment on that same...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Is that out of fear psychosis or some intellectual thinking
> > > block...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > There is nothing wrong in such representations...
> > > 
> > > 
> > > e.g. Devanagri numeral 5 looks very much like Gujarati प,
> > > 
> > > 
> > > As long as the person is defining it in the context of language
> > > of his choice, I, humbly, do see nothing wrong in it...
> > > --
> > > 
> > > ॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----- This SF email is sponsosred by:
> > > Try Windows Azure free for 90 days Click Here
> > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/sfd2d-msazure
> > > 
> > > 
> > > 
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > IndLinux-group mailing list
> > > IndLinux-group@...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/indlinux-group
> 
> -- 
> ॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥


-- 
Guntupalli Karunakar <karunakar@...>

sure, I have once again started poediting my text files!

There is no current plan to change my mail id daily unless others become too 
intolerably intolerant!

suffice to mention!
-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 10:25 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> On শুক্রবার 30 মার্চ 2012 08:50 , Swarup wrote:
> > On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:31 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> >> On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 08:04 , Swarup wrote:
> >>
> >>>
> >>> 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has only
> >>> "ba" (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali script
> >>> need a character for "va", and for that a convention has been adopted
> >>> that the Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the sound "va".
> >>>  And for "ba", the character is slightly changed i.e. with a line through
> >>>  the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" , just as is done in
> >>>  devanagari.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Would you be able to point me to any document or link for this convention?
> >
> > Runa Didi, I deeply appreciate your keen interest in Bangla, and your
> > questions reflect this interest. I am attaching here an excerpt from a book
> > explaining the importance of maintaining the distinction between 'ব'' and
> > 'ৰ';  in the following mail I shall attach two files showing the relevant
> > part of the Bangla varnamala with 'ব'' and 'ৰ'.
> >
> > By reading the excerpted section, the reason for distinguishing in written
> > form between the two letters 'ৰ' and 'ব ' will I think become clear. If
> > anyone has any further question, feel free to write and I will be happy to
> > discuss more. My thanks to all those who take interest in this vital
> > subject.
> >
> 
> What book is this part of? Besides saying the same thing that you have been
> saying so far, none of those scanned images provide a citation of any
> "legitimacy". Has this "change" (that'll impact the manual and digital writing
> form of the language in epic proportions) been approved by the Paschim Banga
> Bangla Akademy or any other Authority for the Bangla language?

युक्तियुक्तमुपादेयं वचनं बालकादपि |
अन्यं तृणमिव त्याज्यमप्युक्तं पद्मजन्मना ||

In this shloka it is expressed that if a rational, logical idea is
presented by even a small child it should be embraced and accepted. And
if an unworthy, illogical statement is made by even Brahma, that should
be discarded like dry grass.

This shloka gives a very important concept for moving ahead, making
progress in the world. Although it is a Sanskrit shloka, but on this
point it is supporting the approach of the West. That is to say, when a
new idea comes, the Western approach is to embrace it no matter who has
given the idea-- no matter whether the person carries great prestige and
authority in the society or whether he/she carries none at all. People
will discuss and evaluate on the merits of the idea, and not on the
credentials of the person who has given it.

It is because of this open-minded approach that the Western nations in
the last hundred years became so scientifically advanced so quickly,
compared to India. In Indian and Chinese society it is very important
who said something, often more important than what it is said. Who said
something, is a critical determinant of whether an idea will be accepted
or not. Whereas in the West, a good idea is embraced even if it is given
by a simple youth. 

Yes, in spirituality the Indian approach is highly appreciable: seniors
have more experience and so their views should be given more weight on
this ground. But in science, this approach only serves to slow down
progress and sometimes stop it altogether. Because of this, in India new
ideas are very very slow to take root. Here in India there is no dearth
of brilliant students, scientists, and thinkers. But due to lack of
appreciation in the society, they often end up going out to other
countries to do their work. This is because in India people are more
concerned with who has given an idea, than with the idea itself. The
credibility of an idea is decided principally on the name of its
propagator.

Indeed the messenger of the new idea is often ostracized and
disrespected. For example, the great poet Rabindranath, only when he
became recognized by the Europeans did he become appreciated in India.
Before that time he was only regarded with scorn, abuse, and negative
glances-- because he was doing something new. Once he received the nobel
prize in Europe, then in India society's view toward him changed
dramatically to awe, love, and respect.
 
So here with the current subject of Bengali script, we should use our
minds to evaluate the logic of a new idea, rather than looking to the
authorities whose views may or may not represent what is most beneficial
for the language.

There is no doubt that particularly non-native speakers of Bengali
within and without India have a very difficult time knowing which
letters are meant as "va" and which as "ba"-- because the two sounds are
represented by the very same glyph. Bengali being one of the
very richest languages in India, with a tremendously abundant
literature, is sought after and read by people all over the world. This
international readership has increased dramatically in recent times, and
is still increasing today. Such an international interest underscores
the great need for separate letters for 'va' and 'ba' in order to
achieve clarity of expression.

That is why one modern-day philosopher has given the new idea that there
should be a clear difference between the glyph for "ব" and that for "ৰ".

Historically, Sanskrit does not have its own script. It has long been
written in Grantha lipi in the south; in Nagarii lipi in Gujarat; in
Devanagarii in the North, and in Shriiharsa lipi in Bengal. When the
British wanted to standardize written Sanskrit, they chose Devanagarii--
but that is not the language's original script. Thousands of years ago,
before the existence of these modern scripts, Sanskrit was written in
Brahmii and Kharostii-- two scripts which are now no longer in use.

Given the towering importance of Bengalii in the world today, Sanskrit
in many places is written in Shriiharsa lipi. To respond to the needs of
non-native speakers of Bengali both inside and outside India, as well as
to the needs of children and youth in Bengal learning Sanskrit, making
use of a different glyph for the vargiiya 'ba' and the antastha 'va', is
of critical value in making the written expression clear for all to
understand.

So now it is my humble request that we may come back to the original
request put before this list yesterday, as to how to create
"ba" (ৰ)-halant.

Best Regards,
Swarup

I am writing again my request, so that someone here having technical
knowledge may let me know how this is to be done. Both the issues I face
must be simple ones.

1. ba-halant (ৰ-halant). I have the glyph; I just need to know how to
add a halant sign onto it so that it will work in the bn-baraha.mim file
(attached).

2. The following two glyphs are not working for some reason: ("Ru" "ঋ",
"RU" "ৠ"). They are there in the keymap (attached), but when typed, they
appear for some reason as "Rউ" and "Rঊ" respectively.

There used to be many persons on this list who were very active in
helping with such issues. Runa ji, if you are familiar then I would
welcome your help. Karunakarji, you'be been so very helpful in the past;
kindly lend a hand with the above. Goraji, this file you yourself made
in 2007, but at that time we could not test and perfect it. If you will
take 5 minutes now to have a look, I am sure we could finalize this
quickly.

Thanking you,
Swarup

I am attaching here a scan of the varnamala with the vargiiya-ba
(বর্গীয়-ৰ) | I tried various times to send it to the list, but there is
a 40-kb limit to size. Here I have reduced the scan to 116 kb, which is
the smallest my machine will do. If this reaches the list and anyone
wishes to have a clearer scan, perhaps the list moderator may give
permission to send a slightly larger resolution version i.e. say 400 kb.

Best,
Swarup

Is halant working for other letters in the script?

There lies the answer to your quest!

On Friday 30 Mar 2012 8:11:28 PM Swarup wrote:
> I am writing again my request, so that someone here having technical
> knowledge may let me know how this is to be done. Both the issues I face
> must be simple ones.
> 
> 1. ba-halant (ৰ-halant). I have the glyph; I just need to know how to
> add a halant sign onto it so that it will work in the bn-baraha.mim file
> (attached).
> 
> 2. The following two glyphs are not working for some reason: ("Ru" "ঋ",
> "RU" "ৠ"). They are there in the keymap (attached), but when typed, they
> appear for some reason as "Rউ" and "Rঊ" respectively.
> 
> There used to be many persons on this list who were very active in
> helping with such issues. Runa ji, if you are familiar then I would
> welcome your help. Karunakarji, you'be been so very helpful in the past;
> kindly lend a hand with the above. Goraji, this file you yourself made
> in 2007, but at that time we could not test and perfect it. If you will
> take 5 minutes now to have a look, I am sure we could finalize this
> quickly.
> 
> Thanking you,
> Swarup

-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Friday 30 Mar 2012 8:11:28 PM Swarup wrote:
> 2. The following two glyphs are not working for some reason: ("Ru" "ঋ",
> "RU" "ৠ"). They are there in the keymap (attached), but when typed, they
> appear for some reason as "Rউ" and "Rঊ" respectively.
> 

Without being a font creator or even an apprentice in that field, I can tell 
that logic where a composite glyph gets selected is the place there is a 
bug... 

-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 22:04 +0530, ॐ wrote:
> Is halant working for other letters in the script?
> 
> 
> There lies the answer to your quest!

Yes, halant is working fine for all the other letters in the script. But
then, I did not make the bn-baraha-mim file-- Gora Mohanty made it.
However all those halant-linked glyphs were made, so the same technique
would be used for attaching a halant to the "ৰ " .  

Swarup

On শুক্রবার 30 মার্চ 2012 07:12 অপরাহ্ণ, Swarup wrote:

[snipping off irrelevant parts]


> So now it is my humble request that we may come back to the original request
>  put before this list yesterday, as to how to create "ba" (ৰ)-halant.
>

Lets give this one more try.

The character that you are copying over here is unicode character U09F0 to
represent the character 'Ra' used in the Assamese script. When a user will type
this character in using the keymap proposed by you, it will be stored in a
format that the digital writing system will recognise as 'Ra'. So if someone
tries to type your name (or identity as I gathered from the email id you are
using) 'Dinbandhu' with your keymap, they will end up typing it as 'Dinrandhu'.
And so on for every word with the make belief 'ba'. 'Antastya ba'[1][2] does not
have any representation in the Unicode charts (because its use was discontinued
ages ago and your scanned page also mentions the same), so even if you think you
are mapping the ৰ glyph to an Antastya ba and not to the Assamese Ra, there isnt
any code point on the Bengali script chart that it can be mapped to. So it'll
either end up being mapped to a very wrong character or to vacuum. If you still
insist on doing so and have enough vetted evidence admissible by Unicode to back
up your claims, you can take it to Unicode (through the appropriate channels)
and have them add a code point for 'Antastya ba' in the Bengali code chart so
that it is correctly mapped. Please understand that without adequate validation,
what you are proposing will amount to immense amount of data loss in both
Bengali and Assamese content, and break  enough i18n standards for the
implementation of keymaps for which a lot of us on this list have had to
work hard for more than a decade.

Your intentions are laudable but considering your arguments on this matter so
far, I am hard pressed to believe that your comprehension of Bengali or Unicode
is adequate to defend your stand.

regards
Runa

[1] Please do not misrepresent this as 'ba'. There were historically two types
of 'ba' in Bengali (both represented with the same glyph): borgiyo ba i.e.
similar in pronunciation to the hindi ब and antastya ba i.e. similar in
pronunciation to the hindi व .

[2] Please find a copy of the book titled 'The Origin and Development of the
Bengali Language' by Suniti Chattopadhyay and also 'The printed Bengali
character and its evolution' by Dr.Fiona Ross for some insight on this.


-- 
blog: http://arrbee.wordpress.com
irc: arrbee or runa_b on Freenode
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

> p.s. As a side note, with all due respect you are not correct in your
> assessment. The "ৰ"  has a completely legitimate use as Bengali "ba",
> with precedent as well as strong scholarly interest.

With use if assamese "ৰ" interspersed with bengali codechart, you are going to 
face a tough task till those in charge of guiding development and review of 
bengali code charts in U Consotium.

However you will not face any problem if you are printing the stuff (ultimate 
work) instead of electronic distribution...  It will be perfectly logical to 
use it the way you plan to!

That is like taking a feather out of computers and using it for some other 
constructive (hopefully problem solving, not creating) purpose! 
-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

May I politely point all prticipants to this thread that I, as an
outsider, and completely outsider of the Indian culture, can't even
understand the start of what seems to be an argument?

My only feeling is that this argument seems to be about something
quite not so deeply important and which probably doesn't require such
"passionate" discussion.

:-)

Take a deeeeeeep breath, folks!

On Friday 30 Mar 2012 3:10:37 PM Sudhanwa Jogalekar wrote:
> Dear ॐ ,
> 
> If you want your writing to be noticed, either you remain ontopic or
> mention OT tag in the subject line.
> 
> Regards
> 
> 2012/3/30 ॐ <shirish@...>:
> > On Friday 30 Mar 2012 8:50:57 AM Swarup wrote:
> >> On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 14:31 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> >> > On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 08:04 , Swarup wrote:
> >> > > 2. The classical Bengali script has no letter for "va" (व). It has
> >> > > only
> >> > > 
> >> > > "ba" (ब). But those who write Sanskrit shlokas using the Bengali
> >> > > 
> >> > > script need a character for "va", and for that a convention has been
> >> > > 
> >> > > adopted that the Bengali letter for "ba" ("ব" ) will be used for the
> >> > > 
> >> > > sound "va". And for "ba", the character is slightly changed i.e.
> >> > > with
> >> > > 
> >> > > a line through the bottom portion (पेट कटा हुआ), resulting in "ৰ" ,
> >> > > 
> >> > > just as is done in devanagari.
> >> > 
> >> > Would you be able to point me to any document or link for this
> >> > 
> >> > convention?
> >> 
> >> Runa Didi,
> >> 
> >> I deeply appreciate your keen interest in Bangla, and your questions
> >> 
> >> reflect this interest. I am attaching here an excerpt from a book
> >> 
> >> explaining the importance of maintaining the distinction
> >> 
> >> between 'ব'' and 'ৰ'; in the following mail I shall attach two files
> >> 
> >> showing the relevant part of the Bangla varnamala with 'ব'' and 'ৰ'.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> By reading the excerpted section, the reason for distinguishing in
> >> 
> >> written form between the two letters 'ৰ' and 'ব ' will I think become
> >> 
> >> clear. If anyone has any further question, feel free to write and I will
> >> 
> >> be happy to discuss more. My thanks to all those who take interest in
> >> 
> >> this vital subject.
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> 
> >> Regards,
> >> 
> >> Swarup
> > 
> > I think, there is no need to teach বিবেকানংদ to a बंगाली... In his own
> > words श्री रामकृष्ण मिशन पुस्तिका says,
> > 
> > 
> > "The truth does pay homage to any society, ancient or moden, society has
> > to pay homage to truth or die!"
> > 
> > 
> > --
> > 
> > ॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥
> > 
> > 
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----- This SF email is sponsosred by:
> > Try Windows Azure free for 90 days Click Here
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/sfd2d-msazure
> > _______________________________________________
> > IndLinux-group mailing list
> > IndLinux-group@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/indlinux-group

Same is true vice-versa for those making unwarranted comments...

at least I presume so...  There was no value addition to the original thread 
from your comment...


-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

Runa Didi,

On Fri, 2012-03-30 at 22:38 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:

> The character that you are copying over here is unicode character U09F0 to
> represent the character 'Ra' used in the Assamese script.

How to take this unicode character U09F0, and put a halant on it. Here
below are examples, done with other characters:

ত্‌ দ্‌ স্‌ ন্‌ ম্‌ প্‌

I need to do the same with the unicode character U09F. Can you tell me
how to do this?

Cheers,
Swarup

That is indian way of passing (graduating) sub-standard work as the original 
masterpiece :-)

now you will have to learn the meaning of "sub" with whatever little bit you 
may learn of Hindi (हिंदी), the so called national language :-)

-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:37:05 -0400
Swarup wrote:

> On Thu, 2012-03-29 at 20:30 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> > On বৃহস্পতিবার 29 মার্চ 2012 07:38 , Swarup wrote:
> > 
> > >
> > > As I say, I will be delighted to discuss all these interesting
> > > matters. But first, please help me to get a halant on the
> > > character "ৰ". I am in pressing need to get this set up, and
> > > will then be happy to discuss all the points. Someone here must
> > > know how to put a halant on the character "ৰ" . This will be a
> > > great help to me, and to many others who are eager to utilize
> > > this bahara keymap.
> > >
> > 
> > 
> > WHY on earth would you want to add a halant to the Assamese 'Ra'
> > to introduce it into a Bengali keymap as an character completely
> > unknown to us? It is as good as adding a Gujarati character into
> > the Hindi keymap and expecting your users to use it as some kind
> > of decoration.
> 
> Runa ji, I am not asking you to use it. I need to use it in my own
> work. And I am in continuous contact with a number of Bengali
> friends and colleagues who are also waiting for this very keymap.
> My request is a technical one, stated above. This list is all about
> facilitating the use of the various Indian languages in computer
> environments-- and this keymap represents one such use.
> 
> I repeat my earnest appeal-- some on this list are knowledgeable
> about such questions as what I have requested. 
> 
> 1. I am in need of the character "ৰ" with halant.

The said char is encoded as 09F0 (defined for use in assamese,  RA
with middle diagonal), which you intend to use as BA (like Hindi ब ),
and want like ब्  

now in keymap   b is 
  ("b" "ৰ")
add halant it shows as you expect
  ("b" "ৰ্")

There seems some issue with "ৰ"  when some generic font
(sans/monospace) is applied, ৱ  (RA with lower diagonal) is displayed.
With Lohit hindi/Mukti it shows properly

Now for the issue of using a defined character (09F0) with a shape (ৰ)
which has different use/sound in  older text/conventions or
similarity with devanagari ब , its your choice, even if it breaks
existing semantics, as long as it suits your usage. But for a wider
dissemination some mention is mandatory on the convention you are
following.

Sanskrit Slokas predate technology, perhaps best written in devanagari
script, and for your use case of writing in Bengali script, the need
for visual distinction between BA , VA is what I understand as reason
for above hack.

> 2. I need to get the characters ("Ru" "ঋ") and ("RU" "ৠ") working
> in the keymap.

'R' is not mapped to any character, so it appears as is,
with u/U giving the vowels.
You could map  ऋ  or ঋ  directly onto R with following change in mim
file.

...
  ("N") ("O") ("P") ("S") ("T") ("R") ("U") ("Y")
...
  ("r" "র্")
  ("R" "ঋ")
  ("l" "ল্")
...

with above change following are obtained.

R	ঋ
Ru	ঋ
RU	ৠ 

KRu  খৃ
KRU  খৄ

so you can play around with rules to get the desired combinations.

Karunakar

Karunakar ji,
This is wonderful! thank you.

Please kindly see below for further comments...

On Sat, 2012-03-31 at 02:18 +0530, Guntupalli Karunakar wrote:
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2012 11:37:05 -0400
> Swarup wrote:

> > 1. I am in need of the character "ৰ" with halant.
> 
> The said char is encoded as 09F0 (defined for use in assamese,  RA
> with middle diagonal), which you intend to use as BA (like Hindi ब ),
> and want like ब्  
> 
> now in keymap   b is 
>   ("b" "ৰ")
> add halant it shows as you expect
>   ("b" "ৰ্")
> 
> There seems some issue with "ৰ"  when some generic font
> (sans/monospace) is applied, ৱ  (RA with lower diagonal) is displayed.
> With Lohit hindi/Mukti it shows properly

Yes--it shows properly. When used independently as a separate letter, it
is perfect. And when it is combined with vowels, it also shows
perfectly.

ৰ ৰা ৰি ৰী ৰু ৰূ ৰে ৰৈ ৰো ৰৌ 

The problem I am facing, is that it is not combining properly with
consonants. When typed as the first letter of a conjunct, as soon as the
second letter of the conjunct is typed the sequence of the two becomes
reversed, with the ৰ appearing as the second member of the conjunct.

In Bengali there are seven conjuncts where the first letter is "b" [bj,
bd, bdh, bb, by, br, bl]-- and these are not rendering properly.

For example, when I type the word "brahma", it comes out as
"rbahma": ৰ্রহ্ম |  So:
 
br ৰ্র
bl ৰ্ল্
by ৰ্য 

I do not know how these letters are appearing on your screen. When using
bn-baraha.mim and I type "br" in gedit, it comes out with the Bengali
letters reversed like "rb". But when I paste that into this plain text
email, it is appearing different-- as the second letter with a reph on
top-- which is still wrong rendering. When I change the email format to
html, then it appears as it did in gedit. Anyhow, it is definitely not
functioning properly in combination with other consonants to form
conjuncts.

With "b" as the second letter of a consonant-consonant conjunct there is
also problem, but not as severe as when it is the first member of the
conjunct. As the second member it does retain its place in the second
position, but does not combine properly with the first letter.

> Now for the issue of using a defined character (09F0) with a shape (ৰ)
> which has different use/sound in  older text/conventions or
> similarity with devanagari ब , its your choice, even if it breaks
> existing semantics, as long as it suits your usage. But for a wider
> dissemination some mention is mandatory on the convention you are
> following.
> 
> Sanskrit Slokas predate technology, perhaps best written in devanagari
> script, and for your use case of writing in Bengali script, the need
> for visual distinction between BA , VA is what I understand as reason
> for above hack.
> 
> > 2. I need to get the characters ("Ru" "ঋ") and ("RU" "ৠ") working
> > in the keymap.
> 
> 'R' is not mapped to any character, so it appears as is,
> with u/U giving the vowels.
> You could map  ऋ  or ঋ  directly onto R with following change in mim
> file.
> 
> ...
>   ("N") ("O") ("P") ("S") ("T") ("R") ("U") ("Y")
> ...
>   ("r" "র্")
>   ("R" "ঋ")
>   ("l" "ল্")
> ...
> 
> with above change following are obtained.
> 
> R	ঋ
> Ru	ঋ
> RU	ৠ 
> 
> KRu  খৃ
> KRU  খৄ
> 
> so you can play around with rules to get the desired combinations.

Yes, this is working perfectly.


Thank you so much. So it is just the consonant-consonant conjuncts with
"b" that there is some problem. Can you suggest what can be done to
resolve this?

Many thanks,
Swarup

On Sat, 2012-03-31 at 02:18 +0530, Guntupalli Karunakar wrote:

> Now for the issue of using a defined character (09F0) with a shape (ৰ)
> which has different use/sound in  older text/conventions or
> similarity with devanagari ब , its your choice, even if it breaks
> existing semantics, as long as it suits your usage. But for a wider
> dissemination some mention is mandatory on the convention you are
> following.

Yes, you are absolutely right. And I fully support the standard Bangla
as described by Runa and the greater Bengali community. There are just a
few of us working on a project, and for that we are in need of this
specialized keymap.

> Sanskrit Slokas predate technology, perhaps best written in devanagari
> script, and for your use case of writing in Bengali script, the need
> for visual distinction between BA , VA is what I understand as reason
> for above hack.

Yes, you have said it exactly. We are dealing primarily with Sanskrit,
and for that reason are in need of differentiating the VA and BA in
shriiharsa lipi, so that the distinction will be clear for the
multilingual international community.

Regards,
Swarup

On শনিবার 31 মার্চ 2012 06:55 পূর্বাহ্ণ, Swarup wrote:

>
> Yes, you are absolutely right. And I fully support the standard Bangla as
> described by Runa and the greater Bengali community. There are just a few of
> us working on a project, and for that we are in need of this specialized
> keymap.
>

Actually you now have me intrigued on this matter. Will you be able to scan some
of the printed versions of the Shlokas that you are dealing with and host them
somewhere, along with the following details:

1. Name of the printed document/book it is taken from
2. Name of the publication group.

Especially the second is of importance, because quite a few publication groups
are known to have adopted their own spellings and writing style which are not
part of the mainstream Bengali method of writing. At times they even have a
separate style-guide about the modifications they have made to the writing
system and how the readers are expected to read them.

If this is the case then your keymap cannot be called a mainstream Bengali
keymap but has to have some other name to identity its special use.

Runa


-- 
blog: http://arrbee.wordpress.com
irc: arrbee or runa_b on Freenode
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

On Mon, 2012-04-02 at 10:14 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote: 
> On শনিবার 31 মার্চ 2012 06:55 পূর্বাহ্ণ, Swarup wrote:
> 
> >
> > Yes, you are absolutely right. And I fully support the standard Bangla as
> > described by Runa and the greater Bengali community. There are just a few of
> > us working on a project, and for that we are in need of this specialized
> > keymap.
> >
> 
> Actually you now have me intrigued on this matter. Will you be able to scan some
> of the printed versions of the Shlokas that you are dealing with and host them
> somewhere, along with the following details:
> 
> 1. Name of the printed document/book it is taken from
> 2. Name of the publication group.

We are Sanskrita Pracara Sabha, a non-for-profit dedicated to
propagating Samskritam using three mediums: 
1. The local script of every state of India;
2. A latin font dedicated for Samskritam;
3. Devanagarii script 

There are some organizations dedicated to propagating Samskritam via
Devanagarii lipi. But we are committed to the idea that whatever script
is most convenient to a student is the best script for learning
Samskritam for that person. When someone tries to learn Samskritam using
a script they do not know or are not comfortable with, then that only
creates another hurdle in their learning. 

For example, if a Bengali student has to learn Samskritam using
Devangarii, script, it will be more difficult for him/her. And if the
same Bengali student is to learn Samskritam through Shriiharsa lipi, it
will be far easier. 

So if students in Bengal and other states have to learn Samskritam via
Devanagarii, it is alot of work. And if students learn using their own
script, it is made easy. In this way, many more students will be
successful in their efforts to master the Samskritam language.

Our concept is based on the idea that in ages past, Samskritam was
written in each local area of India in the language of that place.

Two hundred years ago, no one taught or wrote Samskritam in Bengal using
Devanagari script. Everything was taught using Shriiharsa script.
Similarly, in Tamil Nadu all Samskritam was written in Grantha lipi.
These traditions need to be upheld, in order to keep the connection with
the ancient Samskritam literature of Bengal, and to facilitate the
learning of Samskritam through the use of a script (Shriiharsa) which is
known by the people.

So the ancient texts were handwritten in Samskritam, using local
scripts. If everything is now converted to Devanagarii, the connection
to all that ancient literature written in local scripts, will be cut
off. Thus the importance of maintenance of Samskritam in local scripts,
such as Shriiharsa.

And to write Samskritam properly, it needs the full fifty letters. To
fulfill that need, in Shriiharsa script, the need is there today to have
separate characters for BA and VA.

One important example of our efforts is to use Shriiharsa script in
Bengal for propagating Samskritam. That way Bengali children and adults
alike will be using the script they know to learn this ancient language.

Here following are some examples of shlokas with which we have been
working, as per your request. I will present the shloka in both
Devanagari and latin script.

सहस्रशीर्षा पुरुषः सहस्राक्षः सहस्रपात्‌ |
स भूमिं विश्वतो वृत्वात्यतिष्ठद्‌ दशाङ्गुलम् || श्वेताश्वतरोपनिषत्‌ ३/१४

Sahasrashiirśá Puruśah sahasrákśah sahasrapát;
Sa bhúmiḿ vishvato vrtvá’tyatiśt́haddasháuôgulam.

----------------

पुरुष एवेदं सर्वं यद्भूतं यच्च भव्यम्‌ |
ऊतामृतत्वस्येशानो यद्‌ अन्नेनातिरोहति || श्वेताश्वतरोपनिषत्‌ ३/१५

Puruśa evedaḿ sarvaḿ yadbhútaḿ yacca bhavyam;
U'támrtatvasyesháno yadannenátirohati

----------------

सम प्लुषिणा सममशकेन | 
समनागेन सम एभिस्त्रिभिर्लोकैः || बृहदारण्यकोपनिषत्

Sama plushińá sama mashakena 
Sama nágena sama ebhistribhirlokaeh.

----------------

एकोदेवः सर्वभूतेषु गूढः
सर्वव्यापी सर्वभूतान्तरात्मा |
कर्माध्यक्षः सर्वभूताधिवासो
साक्षी चेता केवलोनिर्गुणश्च ॥ ११ ॥ श्वेताश्वतरोपनिषत्‌ ६/११

Ekodevah sarvabhúteśu gúd́hah 
sarvavyápii sarvabhútántarátmá;
Karmádhyakśa sarvabhútádhivásah 
sákśii cetá kevalonirguńashca

----------------

भयानां भयं भीषणं भीषणानाम्‌ 
गतिः प्राणिनां पावनं पावनानाम्‌ |
महोच्चैः पदानां नियन्तृ तदेकम्‌
परेशं परं रक्षकं रक्षकाणाम्‌ || 

Bhayánáḿ bhayaḿ bhiiśańaḿ bhiiśańánám;
Gatih práńináḿ pávanaḿ pávanánám.
Mahoccaeh padánáḿ niyantr tadekam;
Paresháḿ paraḿ rakśakaḿ rakśakánám

----------------

पितृ पुरुषेभो नमः ऋषि देवेभ्यो नमः
ब्रह्मार्पणं ब्रह्महविर्ब्रह्माग्नौ ब्रह्मणाहुतम्‌
ब्रह्मैव तेन गन्तव्यं ब्रह्मकर्म समाधिना |

Pitr puruśebhyo namah rśi devebhyo namah.
Brahmárpańaḿ Brahmahavir Brahmágnao Brahmańáhutam.
Brahmaeva tena gantavyaḿ Brahmakarma samádhiná.

Take this last example-- here there are VA and BA characters, and these
need to be distinguished clearly so that students and readers can know
which is which.

These shlokas are from various literature like the Vedas, Tantras, and
Shriimad Bhagavat Giita, Puranas, and so many other important
scriptures.

Our team has currently researched and finalized over 700 shlokas in
devanagarii and latin scripts. This has required extensive efforts, as
the shlokas are erroneously reproduced in many texts and on many
websites. It needs a coordinated scholarly effort to ascertain what is
in fact the genuine version.

All of these shlokas we will be transcribing in Shriiharsa lipi as well,
using the Bengali font which is in the process of getting finalized and
approved for use. This will allow those who wish to study Samskritam in
Bengal, to study it using the script which is known to them. And as
there are many Samskritam words which are not present in the Bangla
language, it needs a separate glyph for BA and VA so that learners and
readers of Samskritam will be able to differentiate which is which.

To this end if you Runa Didi and others, can help us in editing a Bangla
font by taking the rules which govern VA and applying them to BA (U
+09F0), then we will be able to move forward towards our goal of
providing all these Samskritam shlokas to the people of Bengal using
their own Shriiharsa script.

In a Bangla font, the rules for consonant-consonant conjuncts involving
BA as one of the characters, needs to be edited as mentioned above, to
conform to the rules currently existing for VA. It is with this editing
task that I request your kind help. I do not have experience editing
fonts, and I understand that for one who has experience, this is but a
small task. You are expert in these matters, and so for you this is a
very simple job; I hope that with just few minutes of your time, you can
resolve this issue.

Best regards,
Swarup

On 04/04/2012 11:09 PM, Swarup wrote:
> Similarly, in Tamil Nadu all Samskritam was written in Grantha lipi.

even today, several hundreds use grantha to read/ write sanskrit in 
Tamilnadu

> These traditions need to be upheld, in order to keep the connection with
> the ancient Samskritam literature of Bengal, and to facilitate the
> learning of Samskritam through the use of a script (Shriiharsa) which is
> known by the people.

+1

On বুধবার 04 এপ্রিল 2012 11:09 অপরাহ্ণ, Swarup wrote:

> Here following are some examples of shlokas with which we have been working,
> as per your request. I will present the shloka in both Devanagari and latin
> script.

I asked for scanned images of the sholkas written in the Bengali script, where
you have seen U+09F0 being used as a 'Borgiyo BA'. And the name of the
publication house of that particular publication.

Runa


-- 
blog: http://arrbee.wordpress.com
irc: arrbee or runa_b on Freenode
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

On Thu, 2012-04-05 at 08:17 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> On বুধবার 04 এপ্রিল 2012 11:09 অপরাহ্ণ, Swarup wrote:
> 
> > Here following are some examples of shlokas with which we have been working,
> > as per your request. I will present the shloka in both Devanagari and latin
> > script.
> 
> I asked for scanned images of the sholkas written in the Bengali script, where
> you have seen U+09F0 being used as a 'Borgiyo BA'. And the name of the
> publication house of that particular publication.

Please pardon the delay. Here are links to scans demonstrating the use
of U+09F0 being used as a 'Borgiyo BA', in Samskritam shlokas and
related terms and descriptions. When one is writing Samskritam, then
distinguishing between VA and BA is essential. For example, see the very
first file below, where there is a shloka used in Lord Shiva's worship.
And in the second line of that shloka is the word व्याघ्राम्बर | I have
written the word here in devanagarii so that all on this list may
understand. But in the scanned page the same word is written in
Shriiharsa lipi, and notice there the distinction between the "VA"
of व्या and the BA of "म्बर" |

One cannot write Samskritam without making this distinction-- and
presenting Samskritam in the local script of the people is needed. In
Bengal, that local script is Shriiharsa i.e. Bangla Lipi.

Please find below five download links, where Samskritam written in
Shriiharsa lipi containing the VA/BA distinction is found.

1
http://www.4shared.com/office/M4bDdXi9/Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_.html

2
http://www.4shared.com/office/OgHdZyc5/Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_.html

3
http://www.4shared.com/office/3N5v5-MA/Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_.html

4
http://www.4shared.com/office/jp_usS2W/Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_.html

5
http://www.4shared.com/office/b0IykP3-/Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_.html

And here is a complete listing of the 50 Shriiharsa letters of the full
Shriiharsa alphabet, which is needed for writing Samskritam:

1
http://www.4shared.com/office/eXpQhcmo/Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi_50_le.html

2
http://www.4shared.com/office/QnRJ9yQ7/Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi_50_le.html

3
http://www.4shared.com/office/PTEK0LAj/Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi_50_le.html

All scans are from books of AMPS Publications.

So I think that I have fulfilled your request. Although I need not
remind, but for those who are just now joining in the discussion, I am
waiting in great hope for help with my original request for editing a
Bangla font so that BA (ৰ) may combine with other consonants in the same
way as VA (ব).

Regards,
Swarup

please note: the shloka I discuss in my letter below is from the third
download link, not the first download link.

All five of the download links contain examples of the BA/VA
distinction.

Thanks,
Swarup


On Thu, 2012-04-05 at 11:45 -0400, Swarup wrote:
> On Thu, 2012-04-05 at 08:17 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> > On বুধবার 04 এপ্রিল 2012 11:09 অপরাহ্ণ, Swarup wrote:
> > 
> > > Here following are some examples of shlokas with which we have been working,
> > > as per your request. I will present the shloka in both Devanagari and latin
> > > script.
> > 
> > I asked for scanned images of the sholkas written in the Bengali script, where
> > you have seen U+09F0 being used as a 'Borgiyo BA'. And the name of the
> > publication house of that particular publication.
> 
> Please pardon the delay. Here are links to scans demonstrating the use
> of U+09F0 being used as a 'Borgiyo BA', in Samskritam shlokas and
> related terms and descriptions. When one is writing Samskritam, then
> distinguishing between VA and BA is essential. For example, see the very
> first file below, where there is a shloka used in Lord Shiva's worship.
> And in the second line of that shloka is the word व्याघ्राम्बर | I have
> written the word here in devanagarii so that all on this list may
> understand. But in the scanned page the same word is written in
> Shriiharsa lipi, and notice there the distinction between the "VA"
> of व्या and the BA of "म्बर" |
> 
> One cannot write Samskritam without making this distinction-- and
> presenting Samskritam in the local script of the people is needed. In
> Bengal, that local script is Shriiharsa i.e. Bangla Lipi.
> 
> Please find below five download links, where Samskritam written in
> Shriiharsa lipi containing the VA/BA distinction is found.
> 
> 1
> http://www.4shared.com/office/M4bDdXi9/Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_.html
> 
> 2
> http://www.4shared.com/office/OgHdZyc5/Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_.html
> 
> 3
> http://www.4shared.com/office/3N5v5-MA/Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_.html
> 
> 4
> http://www.4shared.com/office/jp_usS2W/Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_.html
> 
> 5
> http://www.4shared.com/office/b0IykP3-/Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_.html
> 
> And here is a complete listing of the 50 Shriiharsa letters of the full
> Shriiharsa alphabet, which is needed for writing Samskritam:
> 
> 1
> http://www.4shared.com/office/eXpQhcmo/Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi_50_le.html
> 
> 2
> http://www.4shared.com/office/QnRJ9yQ7/Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi_50_le.html
> 
> 3
> http://www.4shared.com/office/PTEK0LAj/Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi_50_le.html
> 
> All scans are from books of AMPS Publications.
> 
> So I think that I have fulfilled your request. Although I need not
> remind, but for those who are just now joining in the discussion, I am
> waiting in great hope for help with my original request for editing a
> Bangla font so that BA (ৰ) may combine with other consonants in the same
> way as VA (ব).
> 
> Regards,
> Swarup
> 
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Better than sec? Nothing is better than sec when it comes to
> monitoring Big Data applications. Try Boundary one-second 
> resolution app monitoring today. Free.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/Boundary-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> IndLinux-group mailing list
> IndLinux-group@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/indlinux-group

Following the conversation on this thread i was deeply annoyed...
my sensitivities were hurt more by the approach, than by any technicality...

>>On Wednesday 04 Apr 2012 11:09:54 PM Swarup wrote:
>>> On Mon, 2012-04-02 at 10:14 +0530, Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
>>> We are Sanskrita Pracara Sabha, a non-for-profit dedicated to
>>> propagating Samskritam using three mediums:
>>> 1. The local script of every state of India;
>>> 2. A latin font dedicated for Samskritam;
>>> 3. Devanagarii script
>>> 
>>
>>a certificate of some sort that this is in fact a registered organization 
here on earth with such and such intent including the list of names of 
dignitories on it's board plus a practically reachable physical location 
address, not just an IP address would be quite helpful in deciding on the 
merits of whether to initiate a dialog process to defining the nature of help 
the further thereof...
>>

at one point i wrote above, and decided not to send it being on a public 
forum... after reading the responses for one additional day i decided to send 
it, just for everybody to think if our approach to problem solving is correct 
one...

i sincerely do not think it is... how it is to be corrected the application of 
mind by people concerned....

honestly we do not represent the majority of language community... we are just 
like swarup here... just being on the different side of the game in this 
case... even if i am contributing to the language and  it's development 
here... that's all i want to mention... 

minuscule  pecent of population uses computers, cut that down into windows and 
linux and then take people who actually write or read in native languages and 
you will see a clearer picture... still we (that include this goodself too) 
often feel highly of our own contribution...

in the hope that this gets taken in a positive spirit towards course 
correction if needed, but do feel free to criticize... not afraid of that1
-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

Swarup said on Thu, Apr 05, 2012 at 11:45:31AM -0400,:

 > Please find below five download links, where Samskritam written in
 > Shriiharsa lipi containing the VA/BA distinction is found.

All links are asking for login / registration. 

I suspect you can try posting the images on picasa and then linking 
the images in a blog blog post - (sorry ... best way I can think of 
where people can access the image without having to login). 

That said, I think you should take this up with the Unicode consortium; 
you are already advised  by others to approach them. See the link below:-

http://www.unicode.org/consortium/distlist.html

The Indic list is, IMHO most appropriate.

But before that, hope you have followed the advice given 
and tried using a different font (of course, unicode font) 
to eliminate problems in the font.

-- 
Mahesh T. Pai   ||
DICTIONARY, n.  A malevolent literary device for cramping the
  growth of a language and making it hard and inelastic.

Here below I am including links that will be easily accessible to all--

On Thu, 2012-04-05 at 11:45 -0400, Swarup wrote:
> Here are links to scans demonstrating the use
> of U+09F0 being used as a 'Borgiyo BA', in Samskritam shlokas and
> related terms and descriptions. When one is writing Samskritam, then
> distinguishing between VA and BA is essential. For example, see the very
> first file below, where there is a shloka used in Lord Shiva's worship.
> And in the second line of that shloka is the word व्याघ्राम्बर | I have
> written the word here in devanagarii so that all on this list may
> understand. But in the scanned page the same word is written in
> Shriiharsa lipi, and notice there the distinction between the "VA"
> of व्या and the BA of "म्बर" |
> 
> One cannot write Samskritam without making this distinction-- and
> presenting Samskritam in the local script of the people is needed. In
> Bengal, that local script is Shriiharsa i.e. Bangla Lipi.
> 
> Please find below five download links, where Samskritam written in
> Shriiharsa lipi containing the VA/BA distinction is found.

http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_NSS_1.jpg
http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_NSS_2.jpg
http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_NSS_3.jpg

http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_KG_1.jpg
http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_KG_2.jpg

> And here is a complete listing of the 50 Shriiharsa letters of the full
> Shriiharsa alphabet, which is needed for writing Samskritam:

http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi,_50_letters_-_1.jpg
http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi,_50_letters_-_2.jpg
http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi,_50_letters_-_3.jpg

> All scans are from books of AMPS Publications.
> 
> So I think that I have fulfilled your request. Although I need not
> remind, but for those who are just now joining in the discussion, I am
> waiting in great hope for help with my original request for editing a
> Bangla font so that BA (ৰ) may combine with other consonants in the same
> way as VA (ব).

Here I will add that if it is the case that rendering engines will not
accept the above requested change, then there may be a number of other
ways of achieving the same result, such as to use a code which is a
normal consonant and gives behavior similar to VA/BA. Only in the font
the shape will be like BA and not the character itself. And there may be
other options as well, which those more familiar with the technical
aspects of this work may suggest.

Regards,
Swarup

Namaskar,

I thought that I should add here that I have been involved with work
supportive of Indlinux for several years. Perhaps all are aware of the
extremely popular Baraha program in Windows, used for typing the various
Indian scripts. In 2007 I approached Indlinux for help with bringing the
Baraha schema into SCIM. Gora Mohanty was just wonderful; he came
forward and took on the project, and after making the keymap for
Hindi/devanagarii we tested it extensively together until it was
perfect. The result of that work was the hi-baraha.mim. Here reads the
beginning of the hi-baraha.mim file--

;; hi-baraha.mim -- Hindi input method mimicking the
;;                  closed-source Baraha system
;; Copyright (C) 2007, Gora Mohanty <gora@...>
;; Table is courtesy of Swarup <dinbandhu@...>, who
;; put in a lot of effort into making this keymap happen.

Following that, and at the request of several other Indlinux list
members, Gora also created similar Baraha-based .mim files, for use with
several other Indian scripts.

I include the above by way of expressing that I am committed to the same
goals as others on this list, that of making the broadly accepted
standardized forms of the various Indian languages and their scripts,
available for use by all, in linux. 

On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 13:28 +0530, Mahesh T. Pai wrote:
> That said, I think you should take this up with the Unicode consortium; 
> you are already advised  by others to approach them. See the link below:-
> 
> http://www.unicode.org/consortium/distlist.html
> 
> The Indic list is, IMHO most appropriate.

Here I would like to express that it is not our goal or intention to
spread this keymap including ৰ and ব  throughout Bengal for use with
Bengali language typing. Ours is instead a specialized use with regard
to the typing of Samskritam in Shriiharsa lipi. It is for an "in-house"
project of my small team here. I do not want that anyone should
misunderstand this as a danger or a challenge to the existing standard
of Bengali-- this project is rather very specific, relating to the
typing of Samskritam. And because it is not intended for general use, to
approach the unicode consortium likely represents a prolonged process
whose scope is beyond that of my intentions-- which are again that of a
small, in-house project for typing Samskritam. 

At the same time I will add that if any of you or anyone else has need
for this keymap, once made, for typing Samskritam in Shiiharsa script,
you will be most welcome to use it.

Understanding my request for what it is--a limited-scope, limited-use
keymap designed for a small number of people typing Samskritam in
Shriiharsa lipi-- please kindly help me with my goal of getting BA (ৰ)
to work in my bn-baraha.mim file. I support the dignified and noble
standardized goals which Indlinux has, and wish to request your help
with this specialized task I have, so that I may move ahead with this
in-house project of typing Samskritam in Shriiharsa script. 

Having understood that it is neither good neither possible to use the
code U+09F0 for Bangla BA, I have left this idea. The work of
establishing the standard of Unicode Bangla and Unicode Assamese must
not be disrupted.

Using a different technique I need to get the glyph of shape "ৰ" to work
with other consonants to form the proper conjuncts. Two possibilities:

1) Perhaps as suggested, we could use a code which is a normal consonant
and gives behaviour similar to VA/BA. Only in the font the shape will be
like BA and not the character itself. 

2) Another thought is to define the BA in private use area of Unicode
with some value, and within the font define it and give rules similar
to VA.

So in conclusion, in place of U+09F0 we could use any code which you
think best, and assign the ৰ  shape and conjunct rules to that code.

Regards,
Swarup

On Fri, Apr 6, 2012 at 9:38 PM, Swarup <dinbandhu@...> wrote:

> Using a different technique I need to get the glyph of shape "ৰ" to work
> with other consonants to form the proper conjuncts. Two possibilities:
>
> 1) Perhaps as suggested, we could use a code which is a normal consonant
> and gives behaviour similar to VA/BA. Only in the font the shape will be
> like BA and not the character itself.
>
> 2) Another thought is to define the BA in private use area of Unicode
> with some value, and within the font define it and give rules similar
> to VA.

Neither of which is a practical solution. You may think of this as a
niche demand specific to the work that you are undertaking and, you'd
be correct in thinking this. However, the history of Indic language
computing is saddled with such niche demands being met and, the past
half decade has been spent trying to get everything codified,
documented and standardized. This helps when your niche use case
doesn't remain niche any more and, there are users other than you who
have similar requests.

There is a reason that the thread has a repeated resonance of
"upstream first". Because it works out the best in the long run.
Custom fixes have a bad habit of going stale and unmaintained. This is
similar to why kernel folks keep on insisting that drivers be made
part of the kernel tree instead of being maintained out of it. If a
font needs to be modified to accept this character, there needs to be
a reason in place why the font needs to be doing so. But of course,
you can always cajole someone to do this for you, but then, you'll
have to figure out how to maintain the font and, make it widely
available.

To go upstream, it needs to be following some steps. This isn't going
to be a quick fix. But investing energies on that ensures that it is
fixed in a way that is acceptable.

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

On Fri, 06 Apr 2012 12:08:34 -0400
Swarup wrote:

> Namaskar,
> 
> I thought that I should add here that I have been involved with work
> supportive of Indlinux for several years. Perhaps all are aware of
> the extremely popular Baraha program in Windows, used for typing
> the various Indian scripts. In 2007 I approached Indlinux for help
> with bringing the Baraha schema into SCIM. Gora Mohanty was just
> wonderful; he came forward and took on the project, and after
> making the keymap for Hindi/devanagarii we tested it extensively
> together until it was perfect. The result of that work was the
> hi-baraha.mim. Here reads the beginning of the hi-baraha.mim file--
> 
> ;; hi-baraha.mim -- Hindi input method mimicking the
> ;;                  closed-source Baraha system
> ;; Copyright (C) 2007, Gora Mohanty <gora@...>
> ;; Table is courtesy of Swarup <dinbandhu@...>, who
> ;; put in a lot of effort into making this keymap happen.
> 
> Following that, and at the request of several other Indlinux list
> members, Gora also created similar Baraha-based .mim files, for use
> with several other Indian scripts.
> 
> I include the above by way of expressing that I am committed to the
> same goals as others on this list, that of making the broadly
> accepted standardized forms of the various Indian languages and
> their scripts, available for use by all, in linux. 
> 
> On Fri, 2012-04-06 at 13:28 +0530, Mahesh T. Pai wrote:
> > That said, I think you should take this up with the Unicode
> > consortium; you are already advised  by others to approach them.
> > See the link below:-
> > 
> > http://www.unicode.org/consortium/distlist.html
> > 
> > The Indic list is, IMHO most appropriate.
> 
> Here I would like to express that it is not our goal or intention to
> spread this keymap including ৰ and ব  throughout Bengal for use with
> Bengali language typing. Ours is instead a specialized use with
> regard to the typing of Samskritam in Shriiharsa lipi. It is for an
> "in-house" project of my small team here. I do not want that anyone
> should misunderstand this as a danger or a challenge to the
> existing standard of Bengali-- this project is rather very
> specific, relating to the typing of Samskritam. And because it is
> not intended for general use, to approach the unicode consortium
> likely represents a prolonged process whose scope is beyond that of
> my intentions-- which are again that of a small, in-house project
> for typing Samskritam. 
> 
> At the same time I will add that if any of you or anyone else has
> need for this keymap, once made, for typing Samskritam in Shiiharsa
> script, you will be most welcome to use it.
> 
> Understanding my request for what it is--a limited-scope,
> limited-use keymap designed for a small number of people typing
> Samskritam in Shriiharsa lipi-- please kindly help me with my goal
> of getting BA (ৰ) to work in my bn-baraha.mim file. I support the
> dignified and noble standardized goals which Indlinux has, and wish
> to request your help with this specialized task I have, so that I
> may move ahead with this in-house project of typing Samskritam in
> Shriiharsa script. 
> 
> Having understood that it is neither good neither possible to use
> the code U+09F0 for Bangla BA, I have left this idea. The work of
> establishing the standard of Unicode Bangla and Unicode Assamese
> must not be disrupted.
> 
> Using a different technique I need to get the glyph of shape "ৰ" to
> work with other consonants to form the proper conjuncts. Two
> possibilities:
> 
> 1) Perhaps as suggested, we could use a code which is a normal
> consonant and gives behaviour similar to VA/BA. Only in the font
> the shape will be like BA and not the character itself. 
> 
> 2) Another thought is to define the BA in private use area of
> Unicode with some value, and within the font define it and give
> rules similar to VA.
> 

Ok, let me give this a try.. using a code in PUA would be better, so
as not to break existing stuff. Will update in 2-3 days. Meanwhile
list the combinations you would like to see.

Also perhaps could discuss this further off list.

Karunakar

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Guntupalli Karunakar
<karunakar@...> wrote:

> Ok, let me give this a try.. using a code in PUA would be better, so
> as not to break existing stuff. Will update in 2-3 days. Meanwhile
> list the combinations you would like to see.

"using a code in PUA would be better" is perhaps a simplification of
the issue. From
<http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?item_id=VendorUseOfPUA>
"It is not always easy to find out how software vendors have made use
of the Unicode private use areas. Use by software vendors of PUA code
points does not necessarily represent a concern for end users that
have their own PUA character needs, provided that software products do
not assume semantics for PUA code points that affect text processing
in ways that are adverse in relation to the user's needs. This has
been known to happen in some products, however."

As a question, is there a specific reason we are going down the PUA
path ? The original email alluded to making changes in the Bengali
codepoint range. The emails from Runa and Praveen indicate that while
this is possible, there needs to be a specific path that needs to be
followed. In fact, Praveen ends up raising questions around rendering
engines as well.

A PUA may help out Swarup, but like I mention in an earlier email,
these niche fixes are counter productive and end up being a
maintenance burden.

> Also perhaps could discuss this further off list.

Why ? If this touches the Bengali community I'd rather have it on the
'anubad' list of ankur.org.in if indlinux feels it is off-topic.


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

Swarup said on Fri, Apr 06, 2012 at 12:08:34PM -0400,:

 > I thought that I should add here that I have been involved with work
 > supportive of Indlinux for several years. Perhaps all are aware of the

(snip)

 > I include the above by way of expressing that I am committed to the same
 > goals as others on this list, that of making the broadly accepted

I am not questioning your bonafides. 

I first thought that your problem is because you are using a character meant for
use by the Assamese language from within Bengali; obviously, that ought not and is
not the problem.


 > > The Indic list is, IMHO most appropriate.
 > 
 > Here I would like to express that it is not our goal or intention to
 > spread this keymap including ৰ and ব  throughout Bengal for use with
 > Bengali language typing. Ours is instead a specialized use with regard
 > to the typing of Samskritam in Shriiharsa lipi. It is for an "in-house"
 > project of my small team here. I do not want that anyone should
 > misunderstand this as a danger or a challenge to the existing standard
 > of Bengali-- this project is rather very specific, relating to the
 > typing of Samskritam. And because it is not intended for general use, to
 > approach the unicode consortium likely represents a prolonged process
 > whose scope is beyond that of my intentions-- which are again that of a
 > small, in-house project for typing Samskritam. 

I am not still not clear if the problem exists while using the INSCRIPT 
(or any other) keymap. If you have problem with other fonts and the issue 
is independent of fonts; there is indeed a good reason to ask the Unicode
list - there is probably some issue with the standards. That is of course, 
assuming that the entire rendering system - fonts, rendering engine, 
applications etc. are fully standards compliant. 

AFAICT, the UTC (the Unicode Consortium) is transparent and does accept niche
cases like yours. 

 > At the same time I will add that if any of you or anyone else has need
 > for this keymap, once made, for typing Samskritam in Shiiharsa script,
 > you will be most welcome to use it.

If possible, somebody will package it for the distros. 

 > Understanding my request for what it is--a limited-scope, limited-use
 > keymap designed for a small number of people typing Samskritam in
 > Shriiharsa lipi-- please kindly help me with my goal of getting BA (ৰ)
 > to work in my bn-baraha.mim file. I support the dignified and noble
 > standardized goals which Indlinux has, and wish to request your help
 > with this specialized task I have, so that I may move ahead with this
 > in-house project of typing Samskritam in Shriiharsa script. 

Whatever makes you think that other people will have no use for Sanskrit <> BN
transliteration? 

 > Having understood that it is neither good neither possible to use the
 > code U+09F0 for Bangla BA, I have left this idea. The work of
 > establishing the standard of Unicode Bangla and Unicode Assamese must
 > not be disrupted.

OTOH, if Sanskrit <> Bangla transliteration requires a specific character, 
which is not currently available in the standards, it is up to you, as a user
of that specific use case, to take up the issue with the UTC. 

In the meanwhile, yes, the PUA is the only way out. Once the standard is 
established, the fonts can contain dual mapping (both PUA and the codepoint
pointing to same glyph). This is something possible in OpenType layout. 

 > Using a different technique I need to get the glyph of shape "ৰ" to work

This is is what having me confused - what is wrong with this particular 
character? If you have already mentioned, kindly point me to the message
date / time. I seem to have missed it.  

Is it the inability to form conjunct / join with virama problem? If so, would not
this problem be solved by redifining the rules in rendering engine? (pango / kdelibs?)


-- 
Mahesh T. Pai   ||
That men do not learn much from the lessons of history is the most
important of all the lessons that history has to teach us.
--Aldous Huxley

Swarup said on Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 09:42:44AM -0400,:

 > So now it is my humble request that we may come back to the original
 > request put before this list yesterday, as to how to create
 > "ba" (ৰ)-halant.

Sigh. Finally found the mail. So, here we go. 

1. Look into how and why ba is defined in the standards. If it is
defined In the standards such that it hs not to form a conjunct or 
take a half form, you obviously require a new code point. 

If you are looking at Bengali equivalent of Devanagari / Hindi
+U0935, you are probably having a bug in the standards. (see below)

Solution - approach the UTC asking for a new code point. 

2. If the standards do not explicitly prohibit combining / half form 
fo that particular character / glyph, you have a problem with the 
rendering system - it could be any of  font, rendering library, or
application.

Solution would be approach the application author(s) and / or modify the
application / font yourselves. 

I am looking at version 6.1 of CodeCharts.pdf, and find that 
there are blanks at +U09B3. U09B4 and 09B4. 

The file can be obtained by ftp from 

      unicode.org/Public/charts/CodeCharts.pdf.



-- 
Mahesh T. Pai   ||
The next best thing to knowing something is to know where to find it.
   --Samuel Johnson

On Sat, 7 Apr 2012 16:07:28 +0530
sankarshan wrote:

> On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 12:02 AM, Guntupalli Karunakar
> <karunakar@...> wrote:
> 
> > Ok, let me give this a try.. using a code in PUA would be better,
> > so as not to break existing stuff. Will update in 2-3 days.
> > Meanwhile list the combinations you would like to see.
> 
> "using a code in PUA would be better" is perhaps a simplification of
> the issue. From
> <http://scripts.sil.org/cms/scripts/page.php?item_id=VendorUseOfPUA>
> "It is not always easy to find out how software vendors have made
> use of the Unicode private use areas. Use by software vendors of
> PUA code points does not necessarily represent a concern for end
> users that have their own PUA character needs, provided that
> software products do not assume semantics for PUA code points that
> affect text processing in ways that are adverse in relation to the
> user's needs. This has been known to happen in some products,
> however."
> 

Going back in time, when we did not yet have Indic standardized or
it was not working yet, there were steps to use it with some hacks,
some which in long run either died out, or evolved into a standard
solution. So while above aspect may hold, but it should not prevent
in making an attempt to solve the problem  in question.

> As a question, is there a specific reason we are going down the PUA
> path ? The original email alluded to making changes in the Bengali
> codepoint range. The emails from Runa and Praveen indicate that
> while this is possible, there needs to be a specific path that
> needs to be followed. In fact, Praveen ends up raising questions
> around rendering engines as well.
> 

If only changes in font would have worked, would not need PUA, but
as Praveen pointed there would issues in rendering engine too - since
said character 09F0 has semantics of a Assamese RA. As for redefining
any other existing character its not clear again which one to use or
if to use a reserved code point (eg. 09B5) or maybe use code in PUA
for time being.

> A PUA may help out Swarup, but like I mention in an earlier email,
> these niche fixes are counter productive and end up being a
> maintenance burden.
> 

At times few backward steps are needed to take a bigger leap.
So an attempt to solve the problem technically might bring closer to
the path to take, than not attempting it at all for concern of
future maintainability.

> > Also perhaps could discuss this further off list.
> 
> Why ? If this touches the Bengali community I'd rather have it on
> the 'anubad' list of ankur.org.in if indlinux feels it is off-topic.
> 

Not that the discussion is off-topic for the list, but since I have
agreed to work out a non-standard solution for Swarup's need, I said
communication regarding it could be off-list. Once a solution is
ready, it will be available for further deliberations on how or what
approach to take to do it on lines of standard way.
 And it would sure benefit the debate (how best to write
Sanskrit in Bengali or have distinct shapes for sounds BA and VA)
better if held in forum which represents bigger Bengali community. I
suggest Swarup to raise the issues there for wider discussion.

Karunakar

On Sat, 2012-04-07 at 21:21 +0530, Mahesh T. Pai wrote:
> Swarup said on Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 09:42:44AM -0400,:
> 
>  > So now it is my humble request that we may come back to the original
>  > request put before this list yesterday, as to how to create
>  > "ba" (ৰ)-halant.
> 
> Sigh. Finally found the mail. So, here we go. 
> 
> 1. Look into how and why ba is defined in the standards. If it is
> defined In the standards such that it hs not to form a conjunct or 
> take a half form, you obviously require a new code point. 
> 
> If you are looking at Bengali equivalent of Devanagari / Hindi
> +U0935, you are probably having a bug in the standards. (see below)
> 
> Solution - approach the UTC asking for a new code point. 
> 
> 2. If the standards do not explicitly prohibit combining / half form 
> fo that particular character / glyph, you have a problem with the 
> rendering system - it could be any of  font, rendering library, or
> application.
> 
> Solution would be approach the application author(s) and / or modify the
> application / font yourselves. 
> 
> I am looking at version 6.1 of CodeCharts.pdf, and find that 
> there are blanks at +U09B3. U09B4 and 09B4. 
> 
> The file can be obtained by ftp from 
> 
>       unicode.org/Public/charts/CodeCharts.pdf.

Thank you Maheshji, for your interest and helpful suggestions and tips.
The problem of achieving (ৰ)-halant (BA-halant) was solved around a week
ago i.e. ৰ-halant is now available. And that was quite helpful.
Now ৰ written independently works fine. And combined with vowel maatraas
also it works fine. The problem comes when consonant conjuncts are
needed. That is the main problem which is now needing to be solved; as I
understand, the solution seems to lie in adding rules into the font for
how ৰ is to form conjuncts with other consonants. Whether the
way ৰ needs to be used for typing Samskritam using Bengali lipi,
requires a new code point and if so where, are some of the questions
that need to be addressed...

Swarup

On Thu, Apr 5, 2012 at 9:15 PM, Swarup <dinbandhu@...> wrote:

>
> One cannot write Samskritam without making this distinction-- and
> presenting Samskritam in the local script of the people is needed. In
> Bengal, that local script is Shriiharsa i.e. Bangla Lipi.
>

PLEASE STOP CALLING SHRIHARSHA = BANGLA LIPI. IT IS NOT. Or are you
just reluctant to pay any attention to what I write?

> Please find below five download links, where Samskritam written in
> Shriiharsa lipi containing the VA/BA distinction is found.
>
[snip]
>
> All scans are from books of AMPS Publications.

Contact details for this publishing house please. They apparently do
not have seem to be google-able.

>
> So I think that I have fulfilled your request. Although I need not
> remind, but for those who are just now joining in the discussion, I am
> waiting in great hope for help with my original request for editing a
> Bangla font so that BA (ৰ) may combine with other consonants in the same
> way as VA (ব).
>

And also STOP CALLING ৰ => this thing here as the Bangla BA. I have
given everyone here enough links to make its place in the Bengali
script clear. You can go blue in the face trying to harp on it, but
its NOT CHANGING. So again, are you just plain reluctant to even
listen to what I have been writing so far?

I do not know what you or karunakar have promised your
friends/clients/business associates for this niche requirement, but
being non-native speakers and users of Bengali I do not think any of
you are in a position to make an informed judgement on tainting
standardized keymaps and fonts without valid reasons. By your own
admission you are trying to get the Shriharsha Lipi  i.e. a different
and ancient script which "may have" had a relation with the modern
Bengali script ages ago. Still does not justify anyone trying to
vandalize the way Bengali has been written for more than 300 years
now. Also the RA is a very very special character for both Assamese
and Bengali because RA (U+09B0 / U+09F0) and YA (U+09AF) have the
distinction of forming two different conjunct characters *without*
changing the sequence of their positions in the conjunct. So naturally
the rules are extra complicated for this particular character.

If the final aim is to get these documents transcribed+printed, try
using both the Bengali and Assamese input methods while typing and
switch between the script, the same way you would switch between
English=<other lang>. This would enable you to maintain the font and
rendering rules in the final document. It is quite a common practice
if more than one Indic language is to be written in the same
document/sentence.

Runa

-- 
http://arrbee.wordpress.com
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

friends here and foss there,

i am just trying to educate myself with this situation.

is there a certified bangla lipi, as such that i can install on my laptop, and 
use it as a starting point for my further explorations of scholarly stuff 
written in that part of the universe...

please, kindly ignore the illiterateness of mine, but this is a sincere 
request, and already see the tempers flying from east pakistan to west 
pakistan...

if, i see no response to this request in next approximately 3 days, it will be 
treated that there is no such classification...

and this is a genuine (english written using latin characters) request.

wishing the best,
sender of this request
-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 3:52 PM, ॐ <shirish@...> wrote:

> is there a certified bangla lipi, as such that i can install on my laptop

Please rephrase this. What exactly are you looking for?


> please, kindly ignore the illiterateness of mine, but this is a sincere
> request, and already see the tempers flying from east pakistan to west
> pakistan...
>
>
> if, i see no response to this request in next approximately 3 days, it will
> be treated that there is no such classification...
>

Please also refrain from making assumptions like the above. People may
be travelling or otherwise restricted from responding to queries.


-- 
http://arrbee.wordpress.com
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

2012/4/8 ॐ <shirish@...>:

> is there a certified bangla lipi, as such that i can install on my laptop,
> and use it as a starting point for my further explorations of scholarly
> stuff written in that part of the universe...

Would it be possible for you to elaborate a bit more on:

"certified" - what does it mean ? And, by whom ?
"bangla lipi" - what does this mean ? Are you using the commonly used
term script and, 'lipi' interchangeably ? They are not, in case that
is what you are looking for.


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 12:28 AM, Guntupalli Karunakar
<karunakar@...> wrote:

> Going back in time, when we did not yet have Indic standardized or
> it was not working yet, there were steps to use it with some hacks,
> some which in long run either died out, or evolved into a standard
> solution. So while above aspect may hold, but it should not prevent
> in making an attempt to solve the problem  in question.

Here's the thing. I respect and appreciate the fact that you are
trying to help Swarup out. And, if this was ~8 years back, I'd have
probably not made as much a noise as now about not using PUA. The
situation was far more muddled and, hacks were aplenty. Currently, a
lot of the cruft is being straightened out and, you are aware of it.
And, as an entity, IndLinux at one point used to adhere to "upstream
and standards first" way of doing things.

So, this is what bothers me now - what has changed that you completely
ignore the input of someone who is working with the i18n folks to make
the experience of using Bengali on Linux desktops seamless, standards
compliant and, by your own admission, try out a hack ? From what I
read, there is a bit of disrespect here. And, that bothers me a lot.

Do you not believe that Runa and Praveen have provided ample reasoning
that this does not need a hack ? Or, is it that a temporary hack is
more important than utilizing the documentary evidence Swarup has to
assess whether this character really needs a code point than a PUA
position ?

> At times few backward steps are needed to take a bigger leap.
> So an attempt to solve the problem technically might bring closer to
> the path to take, than not attempting it at all for concern of
> future maintainability.

Step back momentarily and think about this - Swarup gets his work
attained by the PUA hack. No other Bengali font handles this (because
there was not documented reason for them to have it). What happens to
the fonts across distributions when they end up being used to meet
this niche demand ? Do we go around filing bugs against all of them ?
You know what happens when hacks come home to roost and hit the user
experience ? This -
<http://arrbee.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/shame-on-you-bbc/>


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

On Sat, Apr 7, 2012 at 9:21 PM, Mahesh T. Pai <paivakil@...> wrote:

> 1. Look into how and why ba is defined in the standards. If it is
> defined In the standards such that it hs not to form a conjunct or
> take a half form, you obviously require a new code point.
>
> If you are looking at Bengali equivalent of Devanagari / Hindi
> +U0935, you are probably having a bug in the standards. (see below)

I believe this is something Runa has clarified earlier. So, the
statement "bug in the standards" is a bit far-reaching given that the
evidence provided by Swarup would be required to be presented to the
UTC via the usual means (read: TDIL etc)

> Solution - approach the UTC asking for a new code point.

Yes. There have been precedents about this and, it has going through
the indic@... lists.

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

On Fri, Mar 30, 2012 at 10:57 PM, Christian PERRIER <bubulle@...> wrote:

> My only feeling is that this argument seems to be about something
> quite not so deeply important and which probably doesn't require such
> "passionate" discussion.

I wouldn't know about whether you find this trivial or, not so deeply
important. From what I read, the discussion and debate is about
conflating two different codepoint sets (assuming that they are
possessing a 1:1 mapping) and, thereafter suggesting hacks that are
practically inconsistent with the way the Bengali community would like
this to be resolved (if this is indeed an issue with the Bengali
codepoint range). I would consider it of utmost importance.

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 16:23:41 +0530
sankarshan wrote:

> On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 12:28 AM, Guntupalli Karunakar
> <karunakar@...> wrote:
> 
> > Going back in time, when we did not yet have Indic standardized or
> > it was not working yet, there were steps to use it with some
> > hacks, some which in long run either died out, or evolved into a
> > standard solution. So while above aspect may hold, but it should
> > not prevent in making an attempt to solve the problem  in
> > question.
> 
> Here's the thing. I respect and appreciate the fact that you are
> trying to help Swarup out. And, if this was ~8 years back, I'd have
> probably not made as much a noise as now about not using PUA. The
> situation was far more muddled and, hacks were aplenty. Currently, a
> lot of the cruft is being straightened out and, you are aware of it.
> And, as an entity, IndLinux at one point used to adhere to "upstream
> and standards first" way of doing things.
> 
> So, this is what bothers me now - what has changed that you
> completely ignore the input of someone who is working with the i18n
> folks to make the experience of using Bengali on Linux desktops
> seamless, standards compliant and, by your own admission, try out a
> hack ? From what I read, there is a bit of disrespect here. And,
> that bothers me a lot.
> 



> Do you not believe that Runa and Praveen have provided ample
> reasoning that this does not need a hack ? Or, is it that a
> temporary hack is more important than utilizing the documentary
> evidence Swarup has to assess whether this character really needs a
> code point than a PUA position ?
>

The request Swarup has currently can only be solved by 
- either a hack, have new character, which looks like 09F0
(Assamese RA), but semantics like Devanagari BA, or Bengali VA. And
its no point putting it in Bengali code range.
 And as such just adding a char also wont do, since the combinations
are to be provided, I have no expertise in making glpyhs for them. So
at the most there is a char in PUA which looks like 09F0, but doesnt
behave like a RA. This solution is for his use or within his circle. 

There is no attempt to support it or maintain it from IndLinux side
to be included in upstream.

And for the actual problem at hand, the question of how Sanskrit
could be best written in current Bengali script while keeping
the sounds visibly distinct for the reader, and this is what is
unclear and remains unanswered. And the situation is much like how
Sanskrit is written with Latin chars, since A-Z didnt suffice, extra
symbols etc introduced. He refers to Sriharsha which seems was old
way of writing where BA and VA were visibly distinct. So after
getting  a quick solution, I suggest him to move the debate onto
Unicode lists get it supported.

> > At times few backward steps are needed to take a bigger leap.
> > So an attempt to solve the problem technically might bring closer
> > to the path to take, than not attempting it at all for concern of
> > future maintainability.
> 
> Step back momentarily and think about this - Swarup gets his work
> attained by the PUA hack. No other Bengali font handles this
> (because there was not documented reason for them to have it). What
> happens to the fonts across distributions when they end up being
> used to meet this niche demand ? Do we go around filing bugs
> against all of them ? You know what happens when hacks come home to
> roost and hit the user experience ? This -
> <http://arrbee.wordpress.com/2010/09/30/shame-on-you-bbc/>
> 

As such he said it was for internal use, so perhaps I thought help him
get it. 
If request had been to get into upstream or for a wider use, 
then the path has already been made clear to him - ie build a case
with Unicode on the need, with enough evidence and fight the battle
there, than on this list which is not the ideal place to discuss new
chars to be included in Unicode.

Karunakar

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Guntupalli Karunakar
<karunakar@...> wrote:

> And for the actual problem at hand, the question of how Sanskrit
> could be best written in current Bengali script while keeping
> the sounds visibly distinct for the reader, and this is what is
> unclear and remains unanswered. And the situation is much like how
> Sanskrit is written with Latin chars, since A-Z didnt suffice, extra
> symbols etc introduced. He refers to Sriharsha which seems was old
> way of writing where BA and VA were visibly distinct. So after
> getting  a quick solution, I suggest him to move the debate onto
> Unicode lists get it supported.

And, this is something that I find interesting because this is a
problem that needs to be attacked and resolved. So, if Swarup is Pune
based and, would have time to have a discussion I'd like to see if we
can work out a meeting between the Bengali folks, some i18n folks and,
others who'd be interested

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 5:10 PM, Guntupalli Karunakar
<karunakar@...> wrote:

> The request Swarup has currently can only be solved by
> - either a hack, have new character, which looks like 09F0
> (Assamese RA), but semantics like Devanagari BA, or Bengali VA.

In my humble opinion, this is a gesture that is simply not only
anti-history and anti-evolution, but, in a very crucial way makes
language, the best social product that civilization has achieved into
something that reflects personal whims and eccentricities. I think
language does not work that way. Anything goes in language, but, not
just anything. It has got to be filtered through millions of popular
usage over a considerable length of time. That is, in other words,
socially filtered.

A lot of things can be said about this, but, reasonably speaking, none
of them goes in favor of such a move. So many references and cannons
can be referred to here, but, I think, a small monograph by Rakhaldas
Bandyopadhyay on 'The Origin of Bengali Script', University of
Calcutta, Kolkata, 1919 -- an extremely authoritative piece of text on
Bengali scripts and all, will be sufficient. For many years this is
not available in print, but, luckily for us, it is available in
archive.org, in DJVU PDF and other formats.

In fact, please let me clutter this mail with tidbits from this highly
respected monograph that will show the very pointlessness of the task
that our friend Guntupalli Karunakar has so appropriately summarized
in the three lines that I have quoted above. Those three lines do
really include all the variables that are important for this
discussion: a hack, Bengali BA or VA, Devanagari or Nagari versions of
them, and Assamese ra. In fact, I will humbly want to add another
variables to this list, that is, the Oriya versions of BA or VA, to
read this discussion in the light of the wisdom of one of the all time
great scholars on Bengali script.

Let us quote a few lines from this monograph.

>From Chapter I:

<<
...
It has become possible to show, that proto-Bengali forms
were evolved in the North-East, long before the invasion
of Northern India, by the Nagari alphabet of the South-
West, and that Nagari has had very little influence upon
the development of the Bengali script.
...
>>

This points towards the crucial bedrock that held the birth of Bengali
script -- "evolved in North-East". And it also points towards the
nature of the relation of the early Bengali script with the Nagari or
Devnagari script that was invading North India, coming from the
South-West.

Let us read again.

<<
...
After the Muhammadan conquest, the Western variety
gradually spread itself over the whole of South-Bihar
or Magadha, and the use of the Eastern variety was
confined to the western limits of Bengal proper.
...
The Gaya-Prapitamahesvara temple inscription of
V. S. 1257 and the Umga Hill inscription of Bhairavendra
(V. S. 1496=1439 A.D.) show that Nagari had entirely
displaced the Eastern variety in Magadha.
...
>>

Here is another important point I would want to highlight -- writing
in Magadha flourished in Nagari script -- and shows the total
displacement of Bengali script, and Magadha gets outside the area
where Bengali script operates. So, this obviously points towards lack
of any kinship between Devnagari and Bengali scripts. At best, they
are competitors.

Please do not get angry with me. I think, the long chain of discussion
in this thread deserves a bit more of quoting from this monograph --
let me map my variables, the kinship patterns of Bengali script, and
then, I am coming back to my point.

<<
...
In the north the snowy mountains formed the northern limit.
But in north-east Bengali script was adopted in Assam
...

...
In the east the Bengali script was also being used in Sylhet, ...
In the south the Bengali script was used throughout Orissa.
We find the proto-Bengali script ... at Bhuvaneswar.
...
The modern cursive Oriya script was developed out of the
Bengali after the 14th century A.D. like the modern
Assamese.
...
>>

So, as we see, the kinship milestones of Bengali script are already
there: Assamese and Oriya. In fact, the lineage is something like
Assamese --> Bengali --> Oriya. And the word 'invasion' marks the
relationship of Devnagari towards these scripts.

Now, let us go back to the three lines of our learned friend, Karunakar.

If a hack really takes place that makes a character (struck-out-Ba)
available to the Bengali script, which was never historically there,
that project will not just be anachronistic, it will be in violation
of all the social logic that go into language, the most social one of
all our inheritances. Not just Bengali, all the other scripts in the
lineage chain, like Assamese, from where it came, or like Oriya, what
it became, are scripts that never contained a dual Ba/Va like
Devnagari does. The character that looks like the Nagari Ba is
actually ra, as our friends have already pointed out.

And now this hack wants to emulate Devnagari script the relation of
which towards Assamese/Bengali/Oriya scripts we have already
described.

I think, even if that hack is done, and that hack gets really popular
among larger sections of the Bengali mass in the coming decades, what
will give this hack a legitimacy in getting accounted as a language
thing, that will be really unfortunate for those people using Bengali
script who care for the history that made Bengali Bengali.

I am sorry for this gigantic mail: but, I think it was necessary to
clear some viewpoints that we people, who are not technical at all
like the developers are, but voracious users of the Bengali script, do
share through our decades-long history of using the language and the
script.
-- 
দাশ das
http://ddts.randomink.org/

On Sunday 08 Apr 2012 4:04:08 PM Runa Bhattacharjee wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 3:52 PM, ॐ <shirish@...> wrote:
> > is there a certified bangla lipi, as such that i can install on my laptop
> 
> Please rephrase this. What exactly are you looking for?
> 
> > please, kindly ignore the illiterateness of mine, but this is a sincere
> > request, and already see the tempers flying from east pakistan to west
> > pakistan...
> > 
> > 
> > if, i see no response to this request in next approximately 3 days, it
> > will be treated that there is no such classification...
> 
> Please also refrain from making assumptions like the above. People may
> be travelling or otherwise restricted from responding to queries.

i am asking a simple question... the answer may not be so simple.. till govt. 
of india decided to come up with the symbol for rupee, some folks opted their 
own way without waiting for national consensus to evolve, and one of noted is 
a bengali script... then why this harsh standard of pushing swarup or 
whosoever it happens to be, through the unicode standardization process...

i will rephrase (rather explain and elaborate) my question once i have 
satisfactory hearing of silence of three days in by my own way of checking 
(arresting in the benign sense of that word) the outpour of sentiment that 
even i may be susceptible to...

-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

2012/4/8 ॐ <shirish@...>:
> i am asking a simple question... the answer may not be so simple.. till
> govt. of india decided to come up with the symbol for rupee, some folks
> opted their own way without waiting for national consensus to evolve, and
> one of noted is a bengali script... then why this harsh standard of pushing
> swarup or whosoever it happens to be, through the unicode standardization
> process...

Since we are asking a question for a question, this is going to soon
become interesting. However, if you did notice the proliferation of
the "Rupee symbol in font" commercialization, you'd have also noticed
that once the symbol was decided upon and, the adequate technical bits
done, the mass distributed and available fonts settled down into some
form of standard. Sure, the first few weeks were pure chaos, but guess
where those fonts are now ?

I am at a loss as to where you conclude the "harsh"ness or, "pushing
swarup". A lot of the emails from Runa have had a single common theme
- the Bengali community would like to see this proposed in a manner
that enables all fonts to comply with the specification. And,
thereafter there is a pointer that the character in question has for
long not been a part of the Bengali language. Now, there have been a
couple of native speakers of the language who have said that. And,
Runa has pointed to the grammar book from Halhead about the
evolution/history of this specific character.

To attempt to put it more simply - a hack around the PUA would solve
Swarup's purpose. It will allow him to input and to print. However, at
any point in time, should he need to distribute the electronic copies
of the document or, those documents form part of a record, information
retrieval is going to become difficult. Because, his niche need never
made it into a specification around which others could comply.

That is the cogent summary of what the issue is. And, why it is better
not to have hacks.

Now, as an aside, I have requested and solicited some elaborations
from you on your email around Bengali lipi. If you could also respond
to them, I'd be grateful.


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

das said on Sun, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:07:44PM +0530,:

 > If a hack really takes place that makes a character (struck-out-Ba)
 > available to the Bengali script, which was never historically there,
 > that project will not just be anachronistic, it will be in violation
 > of all the social logic that go into language, the most social one of
 > all our inheritances. Not just Bengali, all the other scripts in the
 > lineage chain, like Assamese, from where it came, or like Oriya, what
 > it became, are scripts that never contained a dual Ba/Va like
 > Devnagari does. The character that looks like the Nagari Ba is
 > actually ra, as our friends have already pointed out.

Sir, please keep XYZ the script and the language written using the XYZ
script distinct. 

Sri Swarup's requirement is very specific - he wants to write Sanskrit
using Bangala / Bengali script. 

Right now, you are reading the Latin script. This mail is in in English,
written in Latin script. Some people (mostly in Goa and Karnataka) use 
this same Latin script to write Konkani. But, I write Konkani using the 
Malayalam script. But the constitution of India says that for official 
purposes, Konkani should be written using the Devanagari Script. 

Writing a language using the script usually used for another language is
very normal and common, especially for Sanskrit. 

This is not about "conflating two codepoints" (Sankarshan's reply to 
Perrier's mail or as you are fearing, corrupting the Bengali language. 

 > I think, even if that hack is done, and that hack gets really popular
 > among larger sections of the Bengali mass in the coming decades, what

If this was not in the Bengali language for past 3 centuries, what makes 
you think this will become populat in the coming decades? 

Please note that I am not taking sides. I am totally disinterested. 

And I really do not understand what Karnukar is trying to do. 

IMHO, another alternative they (Karunakar and Swarup) ought to have 
considered is use of a custom LOCALE. This is assuming that what swarup
wants a glyph which looks same as the character now used for Assamese. 

-- 
Mahesh T. Pai   ||
A: Because it fouls the order in which people normally read text.
Q: Why is top-posting such a bad thing?
A: Top-posting.
Q: What is the most annoying thing on usenet and in e-mail?

On Sunday 08 Apr 2012 4:09:03 PM sankarshan wrote:
> 2012/4/8 ॐ <shirish@...>:
> > is there a certified bangla lipi, as such that i can install on my
> > laptop, and use it as a starting point for my further explorations of
> > scholarly stuff written in that part of the universe...
> 
> Would it be possible for you to elaborate a bit more on:
> 
> "certified" - what does it mean ? And, by whom ?
> "bangla lipi" - what does this mean ? Are you using the commonly used
> term script and, 'lipi' interchangeably ? They are not, in case that
> is what you are looking for.

the question is rather simplistic, what is that the bengali community at large 
would adopt or accept as their script or lipi, which ever term you find 
consistent?

has larger (educated as well as partially educated) population of bangali 
community decided upon a certain style of writing?   

has it been made public under same documentation convention the way others are 
expected to conform to, and is there a consistent way of new electronic 
bengali litterature (work, thoughts in the form of text) becoming available 
based on new set of guidelines those that have come into existence upon the 
advent of computers as we use them now?

-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Sun, Apr 8, 2012 at 9:28 PM, ॐ <shirish@...> wrote:

> i am asking a simple question... the answer may not be so simple.. till
> govt. of india decided to come up with the symbol for rupee, some folks
> opted their own way without waiting for national consensus to evolve, and
> one of noted is a bengali script... then why this harsh standard of pushing
> swarup or whosoever it happens to be, through the unicode standardization
> process...
>

There was no Indian Rupee symbol in Bengali that was meant for the
Indian currency per se.  If you mean U+09F2 that goes by the
description of 'BENGALI RUPEE MARK', then it is the mark for what the
Bengalis call 'Taka' which means currency and it has been in use way
before Indian independence. So one had to write it as ১৲ for 1 full
value of the currency unit. If you mean U+09F3 i.e. ৳, then that is
the sign for the Bangladeshi currency for which the nomenclature
'Taka' has actually been adopted and has no relation with the Indian
currency.


-- 
http://arrbee.wordpress.com
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/User:Runab

2012/4/8 ॐ <shirish@...>:
> the question is rather simplistic, what is that the bengali community at
> large would adopt or accept as their script or lipi, which ever term you
> find consistent?

It isn't a question of what I find consistent. The question is what do
you mean when you use the words "certified" and, "lipi". And yes, the
question is rather simple. And, I still solicit your answer.


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 22:02:02 +0530
Mahesh T. Pai wrote:

> das said on Sun, Apr 08, 2012 at 08:07:44PM +0530,:
> 
>  > If a hack really takes place that makes a character
>  > (struck-out-Ba) available to the Bengali script, which was never
>  > historically there, that project will not just be anachronistic,
>  > it will be in violation of all the social logic that go into
>  > language, the most social one of all our inheritances. Not just
>  > Bengali, all the other scripts in the lineage chain, like
>  > Assamese, from where it came, or like Oriya, what it became, are
>  > scripts that never contained a dual Ba/Va like Devnagari does.
>  > The character that looks like the Nagari Ba is actually ra, as
>  > our friends have already pointed out.
> 
> Sir, please keep XYZ the script and the language written using the
> XYZ script distinct. 
> 
> Sri Swarup's requirement is very specific - he wants to write
> Sanskrit using Bangala / Bengali script. 
> 
> Right now, you are reading the Latin script. This mail is in in
> English, written in Latin script. Some people (mostly in Goa and
> Karnataka) use this same Latin script to write Konkani. But, I
> write Konkani using the Malayalam script. But the constitution of
> India says that for official purposes, Konkani should be written
> using the Devanagari Script. 
> 
> Writing a language using the script usually used for another
> language is very normal and common, especially for Sanskrit. 
> 
> This is not about "conflating two codepoints" (Sankarshan's reply
> to Perrier's mail or as you are fearing, corrupting the Bengali
> language. 
> 

Thats the point I would make, that its not tainting the Bengali
code range or keymap. As for the keymap sent earlier perhaps it could
be called something else - say bn-sanskrit or so, if calling it
bn-baraha (originally conceived to write Bengali language only),
taints it.

>  > I think, even if that hack is done, and that hack gets really
>  > popular among larger sections of the Bengali mass in the coming
>  > decades, what
> 
> If this was not in the Bengali language for past 3 centuries, what
> makes you think this will become populat in the coming decades? 
> 
> Please note that I am not taking sides. I am totally disinterested. 
> 
> And I really do not understand what Karnukar is trying to do. 
> 

Since existing code chart anyways will not change,so any existing
character cannot be redefined. And for adding a new character its a
long drawn process, so for OP's problem, if there is a way to
distinctly represent sounds BA and VA for sanskrit written in bengali
script. Currently perhaps its not possible, so some . Now OP wanted
to use  09F0 (Assamese RA) for its similarity in shape to Nagri BA.
So while input side problem is trivial, can the display side be solved
by creating new character with shape of 09F0 but semantics of a BA -
is what I agreed to work on. My idea was to use a PUA code point for
now, and see what extent issue could be resolved. If mere font
changes can fix it then well enough, if underlying rendering code
also needs change then it is not fixable!.. Input and font can be
tweaked to some extent to fix a need for personal/internal use, but
not beyond that. 

In which case I would urge Swarup to take debate to wider level,
bring in more users (folks who write Sanskrit in Bengali script), get
a consensus and strong case for changes required and the approach
concerned forums (GoWB, DIT, Unicode etc..) to find a solution -
either extension in current Bengali script range, or new range
altogether.

eg. take the Devanagari range, the base set from ISCII and early
unicode was much small, but it has now extended enough to occupy at
the slots in code chart, some of the additions happening to support
writing languages, which perhaps had history of being written
older/other scripts, but now kind of mandated by GoI to be written in
Devanagari.

> IMHO, another alternative they (Karunakar and Swarup) ought to have 
> considered is use of a custom LOCALE. This is assuming that what
> swarup wants a glyph which looks same as the character now used for
> Assamese. 
> 

Perhaps at the font level and not system Locale.  So say if
Lang=Sanskrit then follow  these rules for distinct BA , VA ,  for
bn, as - default rules apply.
Much like how Marathi, Nepali have different glyphs for same
character in Devanagari range.

Karunakar

On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 22:12:54 +0530
ॐ wrote:

> On Sunday 08 Apr 2012 4:09:03 PM sankarshan wrote:
> > 2012/4/8 ॐ <shirish@...>:
> > > is there a certified bangla lipi, as such that i can install on
> > > my laptop, and use it as a starting point for my further
> > > explorations of scholarly stuff written in that part of the
> > > universe...
> > 
> > Would it be possible for you to elaborate a bit more on:
> > 
> > "certified" - what does it mean ? And, by whom ?
> > "bangla lipi" - what does this mean ? Are you using the commonly
> > used term script and, 'lipi' interchangeably ? They are not, in
> > case that is what you are looking for.
> 
> the question is rather simplistic, what is that the bengali
> community at large would adopt or accept as their script or lipi,
> which ever term you find consistent?
> 
> has larger (educated as well as partially educated) population of
> bangali community decided upon a certain style of writing?   
> 
> has it been made public under same documentation convention the way
> others are expected to conform to, and is there a consistent way of
> new electronic bengali litterature (work, thoughts in the form of
> text) becoming available based on new set of guidelines those that
> have come into existence upon the advent of computers as we use
> them now?
> 

Maybe this helps  
http://tdil.mit.gov.in/pdf/Vishwabharat/tdil-july-2002.pdf

There might be some official circular/order on what the standard is
or to be followed (perhaps defined by some body in West Bengal, or
Govt of West Bengal).

Karunakar

On Sunday 08 Apr 2012 10:21:14 PM sankarshan wrote:
> 2012/4/8 ॐ <shirish@...>:
> > the question is rather simplistic, what is that the bengali community at
> > large would adopt or accept as their script or lipi, which ever term you
> > find consistent?
> 
> It isn't a question of what I find consistent. The question is what do
> you mean when you use the words "certified" and, "lipi". And yes, the
> question is rather simple. And, I still solicit your answer.

i sincerely think i have already answered that/those questions...
so there is no question of soliciting further... the cloud is sufficient to 
convey my sentiments and if you have not sensed+understood them yet, 
then that is not clear from your approach, there is a different approach than 
asking for answers from others... usually answers are within, not without!

-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Sunday 08 Apr 2012 10:21:14 PM sankarshan wrote:
> 2012/4/8 ॐ <shirish@...>:
> > the question is rather simplistic, what is that the bengali community at
> > large would adopt or accept as their script or lipi, which ever term you
> > find consistent?
> 
> It isn't a question of what I find consistent. The question is what do
> you mean when you use the words "certified" and, "lipi". And yes, the
> question is rather simple. And, I still solicit your answer.

the question is for the bengali communiy, not to you as a person... are they 
sufficiently represented?
-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Sun, 2012-04-08 at 17:10 +0530, Guntupalli Karunakar wrote:
> ...This solution is for his use or within his circle. 

Yes, absolutely correct. This is an in-house project, with only
extremely limited involvement outside by a very few others interested in
typing Samskritam. There is neither plan nor need for wider use, so with
this understanding in mind, people need not have other concerns.

Regards,
Swarup

Quoting sankarshan (foss.mailinglists@...):

> I wouldn't know about whether you find this trivial or, not so deeply
> important. From what I read, the discussion and debate is about
> conflating two different codepoint sets (assuming that they are
> possessing a 1:1 mapping) and, thereafter suggesting hacks that are
> practically inconsistent with the way the Bengali community would like
> this to be resolved (if this is indeed an issue with the Bengali
> codepoint range). I would consider it of utmost importance.


Hmm, OK point taken. So, let's say things another way: as it seems
this debate is not easy to have, it would be interesting for it to be
summarized (yes, that requires a volunteer for that), which would
probably help the debate to not fall in an argument ping-pong.

2012/4/9 ॐ <shirish@...>:

> the question is for the bengali communiy, not to you as a person... are they
> sufficiently represented?

And, that is why I ask for clarification again - when you use the term
"certified" how do you define the term ?


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

On Monday 09 Apr 2012 11:13:52 AM sankarshan wrote:
> 2012/4/9 ॐ <shirish@...>:
> > the question is for the bengali communiy, not to you as a person... are
> > they sufficiently represented?
> 
> And, that is why I ask for clarification again - when you use the term
> "certified" how do you define the term ?

now that we have already answered the first question, i am silently waiting for 
the second answer from your end over the next 2-3 days of time...

in peace! 
-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

2012/4/9 ॐ <shirish@...>:

> now that we have already answered the first question, i am silently waiting
> for the second answer from your end over the next 2-3 days of time...

And, I ask yet one more time - when you used the term "certified", how
do you define that ?

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 11:09 PM, Swarup <dinbandhu@...> wrote:

[snip]

> To this end if you Runa Didi and others, can help us in editing a Bangla
> font by taking the rules which govern VA and applying them to BA (U
> +09F0), then we will be able to move forward towards our goal of
> providing all these Samskritam shlokas to the people of Bengal using
> their own Shriiharsa script.
>
> In a Bangla font, the rules for consonant-consonant conjuncts involving
> BA as one of the characters, needs to be edited as mentioned above, to
> conform to the rules currently existing for VA. It is with this editing
> task that I request your kind help. I do not have experience editing
> fonts, and I understand that for one who has experience, this is but a
> small task. You are expert in these matters, and so for you this is a
> very simple job; I hope that with just few minutes of your time, you can
> resolve this issue.

I have been reading this thread and I think that both you and Runa
want to achieve the same goal. You want this fixed so that you can get
along doing what your objective is. Runa has asked you for details on
the sources where the character appears in the Bengali script so as to
ensure that it is fixed not only for you, but for all.

I would request that it is in the best interest of everyone concerned
that you help the Bengali language community by providing the scanned
images of the text where this character appears in the Bengali script
and also provide the relevant details about the text (for example, if
it is a book - the author, the title, the year of publication and the
publisher)

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

On Sunday 08 Apr 2012 11:44:27 PM Guntupalli Karunakar wrote:
> On Sun, 8 Apr 2012 22:12:54 +0530
> 
> ॐ wrote:
> > On Sunday 08 Apr 2012 4:09:03 PM sankarshan wrote:
> > > 2012/4/8 ॐ <shirish@...>:
> > > > is there a certified bangla lipi, as such that i can install on
> > > > my laptop, and use it as a starting point for my further
> > > > explorations of scholarly stuff written in that part of the
> > > > universe...
> > > 
> > > Would it be possible for you to elaborate a bit more on:
> > > 
> > > "certified" - what does it mean ? And, by whom ?
> > > "bangla lipi" - what does this mean ? Are you using the commonly
> > > used term script and, 'lipi' interchangeably ? They are not, in
> > > case that is what you are looking for.
> > 
> > the question is rather simplistic, what is that the bengali
> > community at large would adopt or accept as their script or lipi,
> > which ever term you find consistent?
> > 
> > has larger (educated as well as partially educated) population of
> > bangali community decided upon a certain style of writing?
> > 
> > has it been made public under same documentation convention the way
> > others are expected to conform to, and is there a consistent way of
> > new electronic bengali litterature (work, thoughts in the form of
> > text) becoming available based on new set of guidelines those that
> > have come into existence upon the advent of computers as we use
> > them now?
> 
> Maybe this helps
> http://tdil.mit.gov.in/pdf/Vishwabharat/tdil-july-2002.pdf
> 
> There might be some official circular/order on what the standard is
> or to be followed (perhaps defined by some body in West Bengal, or
> Govt of West Bengal).
> 
> Karunakar
> 

that indeed was a helpful response...  though it will take long time to 
understand most of it, it was however noticed that there are 8 Chinese 
partners in the mission as against 10 of Indian origin... one from usa.  
nothing against that, just something that i noted in a cursory glance into 
it...

aabhaar!
-- 
॥ शिवो रक्षतु गीर्वाणभाषारसास्वादतत्परान् ॥

On Mon, 9 Apr 2012 13:23:44 +0530
sankarshan wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 11:09 PM, Swarup <dinbandhu@...>
> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
> > To this end if you Runa Didi and others, can help us in editing a
> > Bangla font by taking the rules which govern VA and applying them
> > to BA (U +09F0), then we will be able to move forward towards our
> > goal of providing all these Samskritam shlokas to the people of
> > Bengal using their own Shriiharsa script.
> >
> > In a Bangla font, the rules for consonant-consonant conjuncts
> > involving BA as one of the characters, needs to be edited as
> > mentioned above, to conform to the rules currently existing for
> > VA. It is with this editing task that I request your kind help. I
> > do not have experience editing fonts, and I understand that for
> > one who has experience, this is but a small task. You are expert
> > in these matters, and so for you this is a very simple job; I
> > hope that with just few minutes of your time, you can resolve
> > this issue.
> 
> I have been reading this thread and I think that both you and Runa
> want to achieve the same goal. You want this fixed so that you can
> get along doing what your objective is. Runa has asked you for
> details on the sources where the character appears in the Bengali
> script so as to ensure that it is fixed not only for you, but for
> all.
> 
> I would request that it is in the best interest of everyone
> concerned that you help the Bengali language community by providing
> the scanned images of the text where this character appears in the
> Bengali script and also provide the relevant details about the text
> (for example, if it is a book - the author, the title, the year of
> publication and the publisher)
> 

Scanned images are here, usage is underlined.
http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi,_50_letters_-_1.jpg
http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi,_50_letters_-_2.jpg
http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Complete_Shriiharsa_Lipi,_50_letters_-_3.jpg

http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_KG_1.jpg
http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_KG_2.jpg

http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_NSS_1.jpg
http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_NSS_2.jpg
http://www.indlinux.org/wiki/index.php/File:Sanskrita_Grantha_Bangla_Lipi_NSS_3.jpg

rest details Swarup could share again.

Karunakar

On Monday 09 Apr 2012, Christian PERRIER wrote:
> Quoting sankarshan (foss.mailinglists@...):
> > I wouldn't know about whether you find this trivial or, not so
> > deeply important. From what I read, the discussion and debate is
> > about conflating two different codepoint sets (assuming that they
> > are possessing a 1:1 mapping) and, thereafter suggesting hacks
> > that are practically inconsistent with the way the Bengali
> > community would like this to be resolved (if this is indeed an
> > issue with the Bengali codepoint range). I would consider it of
> > utmost importance.
> 
> Hmm, OK point taken. So, let's say things another way: as it seems
> this debate is not easy to have, it would be interesting for it to be
> summarized (yes, that requires a volunteer for that), which would
> probably help the debate to not fall in an argument ping-pong.

From my completely lay point of view (I know neither Sanskrit, nor 
Bangla, nor Assamese, nor Unicode), here is the issue:

The Bangla script is used for writing Bangla language.  All the 
characters needed for this are defined in the Unicode standard.

The Bangla script can also be used for writing other languages.  One of 
the languages that may be be written using this script is Sanskrit.  
Unlike the Bangla language, all the characters needed for writing other 
languages are not defined in the Unicode standard.  Specifically, the 
"pet-kata-Ba" ("Ba" with a line through its area) -- used to denote "Va" 
-- which is needed for writing Sanskrit, is not available in the Unicode 
Bangla character set.

There may exist other languages written using the Bangla script that 
require characters not present in the current standard.  Note that each 
of these use cases is a niche one.

The OP had proposed using the "Ra" from Assamese script, which has the 
same form as the "pet-kata-Ba" to write Sanskrit in Bangla script, which 
is being opposed as a hack.

One set of posters on this thread is requesting precedent and 
documentation for (in general) this use of the Bangla script and 
specifically the use of this particular character when writing Sanskrit 
using the Bangla script.  Karunakar has just posted the images, we await 
the references.

Corrections to my understanding appreciated.  Withholding my own 
comments on the matter until the picture is clearer.

Regards,

-- Raj
-- 
Raj Mathur                          || raju@...   || GPG:
http://otheronepercent.blogspot.com || http://kandalaya.org || CC68
It is the mind that moves           || http://schizoid.in   || D17F

Quoting Raj Mathur (राज माथुर) (raju@...):

> The Bangla script is used for writing Bangla language.  All the 
> characters needed for this are defined in the Unicode standard.

.../...

Thanks a lot for this precise summary. I'm not sure I can bring any
input (I'm sure, indeed that I can't, how would I, without any
knowledge in the languages).....but I feel more comfortable
understanding the issue.

2012/4/9 Raj Mathur (राज माथुर) <raju@...>:

> The Bangla script can also be used for writing other languages.  One of
> the languages that may be be written using this script is Sanskrit.
> Unlike the Bangla language, all the characters needed for writing other
> languages are not defined in the Unicode standard.  Specifically, the
> "pet-kata-Ba" ("Ba" with a line through its area) -- used to denote "Va"
> -- which is needed for writing Sanskrit, is not available in the Unicode
> Bangla character set.

And, if you look at the page of Nathaniel Halhead's book which Runa
pointed out to, a glyph of the same kind was used to represent 'ra' -
the issue is thus compounded by the need to make a glyph which had a
different function in Bengali to behave in a new way, so as to enable
the Bengali script to be used for writing Sanskrit. Now, this may or
may not be a good thing to do. However, the path towards this is based
on:

- providing some scans (Karunakar has pointed to the links) of documents
- providing details about these documents viz. if they are books - the
publishers, publication date etc
- providing details about whether there are secondary sources
- propose this to the UTC (although whether this glyph would be
acceptable in Bengali is another issue)
- participate in the discussion and see how it goes

/sankarshan


-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

Raju Mathur said on Mon, Apr 09, 2012 at 06:05:27PM +0530,:

 > The OP had proposed using the "Ra" from Assamese script, which has the 
 > same form as the "pet-kata-Ba" to write Sanskrit in Bangla script, which 
 > is being opposed as a hack.

(just terminological purity - to avoid ambiguity)

The Ra from Assamese language is actually defined in Bangla charts in the 
unicode standards; since Bangla is the script used by the Assamese language. 

Please notice the difference between _script_ and _language_.

Also, it is recognised (among Sanskrit knowing people) to use any convenient
script for writing Sanskrit. 

The the most popular being ISKON, which publishes Bhagwad Gita in Latin script.

Errr... if you do not get it - you are reading the Latin script right now. 

So, most of Indic scripts have strange characters* (strange from the point of view 
of people who normally use  the language normally written using that script); these
exist for transcription of other (mostly Sanskrit). 

This probably explains the fear expressed by some that satisfying  this particular 
requirement will corrupt the Bangla script / Bengali language. 


(* VOCALIC LLA in any Indic script is mostly used for trasncription; it is actually 
   the South Indian tongue twister pronounced "ZHA" by we Southies). 

Of course, thanks for volunteering. 


-- 
Mahesh T. Pai   ||

On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Mahesh T. Pai <paivakil@...> wrote:

> This probably explains the fear expressed by some that satisfying  this particular
> requirement will corrupt the Bangla script / Bengali language.

I would request you to provide some links which have led you to the
above conclusion. Attempting to conflate two distinct character set
code point ranges and thereafter demanding that this new character
behave in a way that is completely orthogonal to the grammar of the
language is not the only strange thing in this thread, but the fact
that even after repeated instances of providing how the script - the
printed script has evolved starting from Halhead's time, non-native
speakers of the language on this list keep pondering about it is
bizarre and curious.

-- 
sankarshan mukhopadhyay
<http://sankarshan.randomink.org/blog>

sankarshan said on Mon, Apr 09, 2012 at 06:40:04PM +0530,:

 > On Mon, Apr 9, 2012 at 6:36 PM, Mahesh T. Pai <paivakil@...> wrote:
 > 
 > > This probably explains the fear expressed by some that satisfying  this particular
 > > requirement will corrupt the Bangla script / Bengali language.
 > 
 > I would request you to provide some links which have led you to the
 > above conclusion. 

If you are meaning "fear expressed by some ..." part, I am referring to
a mail by Mr. Das. (das at random ink dot com; mail dt. 8 April 2012, 
20.07hrs)

Message-ID: <CABWwE-=Ugc_ts+cTVTeFk-QuRQjyuAqMsionE03PkVRAkEhohQ@...>

 > Attempting to conflate two distinct character set
 > code point ranges 

 > and thereafter demanding that this new character
 > behave in a way that is completely orthogonal to the grammar of the
 > language is not the only strange thing in this thread, but the fact
 > that even after repeated instances of providing how the script - the
 > printed script has evolved starting from Halhead's time, non-native
 > speakers of the language on this list keep pondering about it is
 > bizarre and curious.

I can understand this part; I repeat, I am not taking any stand here. 

I merely point out that there _may_ be a legitimate need for better 
clarity on the Bangla standards front _as_far_as_they_apply_to_ 
_transliteration_of_Sanskrit_  here.


What I do not understand is this phrase used by you:-

 > Attempting to conflate two distinct character set
 > code point ranges 

I strongly suspect that Assamese uses the Bangla script. 
(Unicode range 0980 - 09FF). Is not 09F0 and 09F1 
part of this _script_ ? Should not the rendering 
rules for this script be uniform for a given code 
range? Or are rendering rules language dependent? 

Or, rephrasing above, I understand that rendering rules are script
specific, not language specific. Please correct me if I am wrong.

As I get it, one of the first questions asked was why the ba-halant
is not rendering. (Swarup's mail on 30 March 12.) I first thought 
this was merely a rendering issue; till I re-read Runa's mail; which
(coupled with the void at 09B3-5) points to an inadequacy in the Bangla
script (as defined in the Unicode standard) _for transcribing Sanskrit_. 

Now, kindly refer to Runa's mail on 30 March (at 22.38 Hrs).

<quote>

,,,, 'Antastya ba'[1][2] does not have any representation in the Unicode charts 
(because its use was discontinued ages ago and your scanned page also mentions 
the same),

(snip)

[1] Please do not misrepresent this as 'ba'. There were historically two types
of 'ba' in Bengali (both represented with the same glyph): borgiyo ba i.e.
similar in pronunciation to the hindi ब and antastya ba i.e. similar in
pronunciation to the hindi व .

</quote>

What I gather so far is that 

(a) onceupon a time, long, long ago, there was a character, described as 
    "antastya ba"

(b) Antastya ba is not same thing as the "ba" character currently in use 
    in Behgali.. 

(c) Swarup has has a need for antastya ba  character _now_

(d) He is trying to create a PUA code for it. 

Sanskrit is pretty ugly when it comes to pronounciation - there is zero tolerance
for mis-pronounciation and mis spelling. Unlike the Bengali way of writing "bilwa", 
Sanskrit will not leave it to user's intelligence to distinguish the two characters.

Hence, (to me), writers of Sanskrit creating a document in a non-devanagari script 
will  introduce / cook up (if you can call it that) glyphs to represent characters in
devanagari required to write Sanskrit in the alien script. Hence, I can understand
Swarup's requirement in a sympathetic way. 

Now a question to Swarup - if both antastya ba and ba were visually identical,
what is the justification for creating a new code for it now? 

And finally, I really see no point in carrying this discussion further till
we get a <name of book> <author> <date of publication> <name of publisher>
details about the source of those scanned pages from Swarup. 


-- 
Mahesh T. Pai   ||
It's not the software that's free; it's you.