gramps

Is there a GUI editor for graphviz charts?

The report generator in Gramps does a pretty good job of optimising the layout 
of large charts, and the sub-graph option can sometimes improve things.
However, for some of my charts, the layout could be improved quite a bit by 
just reordering some nodes.  A graphical tool for this would be great - is 
there such a thing?  (There are several different graphviz viewers, but I'm 
after a layout editor.)

Apparently, it is possible to rearrange the layout by editing the .gv text 
file.  Is there a description of how to do this anywhere?  From trying some 
example charts, there doesn't seem to be a consistent correlation between the 
sequence of the text file and the layout on the chart, so perhaps I'm missing 
something here.

TIA

Peter

Hi,

> Apparently, it is possible to rearrange the layout by
> editing the .gv text 
> file.  Is there a description of how to do this
> anywhere?  From trying some 
> example charts, there doesn't seem to be a consistent
> correlation between the 
> sequence of the text file and the layout on the chart, so
> perhaps I'm missing 
> something here.

There is a simple sample for generating the graph by using the Graphviz command line tool:
http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Howto:_Make_a_relationship_chart#Example_3.2C_Generating_the_graph_by_using_the_Graphviz_command_line_tool

For extra info:
http://www.graphviz.org/Documentation.php

> Is there a GUI editor for graphviz charts?

* KGraphViewer
http://extragear.kde.org/apps/kgraphviewer/

* Dotty, tcldot, WebDot, Grappa, ZGRViewer, ZGRViewer, etc ... 
see 'Viewers' on http://www.graphviz.org page



Jérôme


--- En date de : Sam 18.12.10, Peter Hewett <gramps@...> a écrit :

> De: Peter Hewett <gramps@...>
> Objet: [Gramps-users] layout editor for graphviz
> À: "Gramps Users List" <gramps-users@...>
> Date: Samedi 18 décembre 2010, 22h57
> 
> Is there a GUI editor for graphviz charts?
> 
> The report generator in Gramps does a pretty good job of
> optimising the layout 
> of large charts, and the sub-graph option can sometimes
> improve things.
> However, for some of my charts, the layout could be
> improved quite a bit by 
> just reordering some nodes.  A graphical tool for this
> would be great - is 
> there such a thing?  (There are several different
> graphviz viewers, but I'm 
> after a layout editor.)
> 
> Apparently, it is possible to rearrange the layout by
> editing the .gv text 
> file.  Is there a description of how to do this
> anywhere?  From trying some 
> example charts, there doesn't seem to be a consistent
> correlation between the 
> sequence of the text file and the layout on the chart, so
> perhaps I'm missing 
> something here.
> 
> TIA
> 
> Peter
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Lotusphere 2011
> Register now for Lotusphere 2011 and learn how
> to connect the dots, take your collaborative environment
> to the next level, and enter the era of Social Business.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/lotusphere-d2d
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> Gramps-users@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>

On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 21:22:59 jerome wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> > Apparently, it is possible to rearrange the layout by
> > editing the .gv text
> > file.  Is there a description of how to do this
> > anywhere?  From trying some
> > example charts, there doesn't seem to be a consistent
> > correlation between the
> > sequence of the text file and the layout on the chart, so
> > perhaps I'm missing something here.
> 
> There is a simple sample for generating the graph by using the Graphviz
> command line tool:
> http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Howto:_Make_a_relations
> hip_chart#Example_3.2C_Generating_the_graph_by_using_the_Graphviz_command_l
> ine_tool
> 
> For extra info:
> http://www.graphviz.org/Documentation.php
> 
> > Is there a GUI editor for graphviz charts?
> 
> * KGraphViewer
> http://extragear.kde.org/apps/kgraphviewer/
> 
> * Dotty, tcldot, WebDot, Grappa, ZGRViewer, ZGRViewer, etc ...
> see 'Viewers' on http://www.graphviz.org page

Thanks for your reply.

There are plenty of viewers, but I was after a GUI editor.
Dotty seems to be the closest to this, as it is possible to move boxes around 
on the chart (if you have numlock off), but it doesn't seem to save the changed 
layout.  (At least, when I save a modified chart, then open the saved file, the 
changes are lost.)

Maybe there isn't any software to do this.

cheers

Peter

> --- En date de : Sam 18.12.10, Peter Hewett <gramps@...> a écrit :
> > De: Peter Hewett <gramps@...>
> > Objet: [Gramps-users] layout editor for graphviz
> > À: "Gramps Users List" <gramps-users@...>
> > Date: Samedi 18 décembre 2010, 22h57
> > 
> > Is there a GUI editor for graphviz charts?
> > 
> > The report generator in Gramps does a pretty good job of
> > optimising the layout
> > of large charts, and the sub-graph option can sometimes
> > improve things.
> > However, for some of my charts, the layout could be
> > improved quite a bit by
> > just reordering some nodes.  A graphical tool for this
> > would be great - is
> > there such a thing?  (There are several different
> > graphviz viewers, but I'm
> > after a layout editor.)
> > 
> > Apparently, it is possible to rearrange the layout by
> > editing the .gv text
> > file.  Is there a description of how to do this
> > anywhere?  From trying some
> > example charts, there doesn't seem to be a consistent
> > correlation between the
> > sequence of the text file and the layout on the chart, so
> > perhaps I'm missing something here.
> > 
> > TIA
> > 
> > Peter
> > 
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ----- Lotusphere 2011
> > Register now for Lotusphere 2011 and learn how
> > to connect the dots, take your collaborative environment
> > to the next level, and enter the era of Social Business.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/lotusphere-d2d
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gramps-users mailing list
> > Gramps-users@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users

> There are plenty of viewers, but I was after a GUI editor.
> Dotty seems to be the closest to this, as it is possible to
> move boxes around 
> on the chart (if you have numlock off), but it doesn't seem
> to save the changed 
> layout.  (At least, when I save a modified chart, then
> open the saved file, the 
> changes are lost.)

OK sorry, I have used Dotty or KgraphViewer some years ago and had just quickly read features [1], but did not test them or ability to edit.


[1] https://projects.kde.org/projects/extragear/graphics/kgraphviewer/repository/revisions/master/entry/README



--- En date de : Dim 19.12.10, Peter Hewett <gramps@...> a écrit :

> De: Peter Hewett <gramps@...>
> Objet: Re: [Gramps-users] layout editor for graphviz
> À: "Gramps Users List" <gramps-users@...>
> Date: Dimanche 19 décembre 2010, 10h32
> On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 21:22:59 jerome
> wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > > Apparently, it is possible to rearrange the
> layout by
> > > editing the .gv text
> > > file.  Is there a description of how to do
> this
> > > anywhere?  From trying some
> > > example charts, there doesn't seem to be a
> consistent
> > > correlation between the
> > > sequence of the text file and the layout on the
> chart, so
> > > perhaps I'm missing something here.
> > 
> > There is a simple sample for generating the graph by
> using the Graphviz
> > command line tool:
> > http://www.gramps-project.org/wiki/index.php?title=Howto:_Make_a_relations
> >
> hip_chart#Example_3.2C_Generating_the_graph_by_using_the_Graphviz_command_l
> > ine_tool
> > 
> > For extra info:
> > http://www.graphviz.org/Documentation.php
> > 
> > > Is there a GUI editor for graphviz charts?
> > 
> > * KGraphViewer
> > http://extragear.kde.org/apps/kgraphviewer/
> > 
> > * Dotty, tcldot, WebDot, Grappa, ZGRViewer, ZGRViewer,
> etc ...
> > see 'Viewers' on http://www.graphviz.org page
> 
> Thanks for your reply.
> 
> There are plenty of viewers, but I was after a GUI editor.
> Dotty seems to be the closest to this, as it is possible to
> move boxes around 
> on the chart (if you have numlock off), but it doesn't seem
> to save the changed 
> layout.  (At least, when I save a modified chart, then
> open the saved file, the 
> changes are lost.)
> 
> Maybe there isn't any software to do this.
> 
> cheers
> 
> Peter
> 
> > --- En date de : Sam 18.12.10, Peter Hewett <gramps@...>
> a écrit :
> > > De: Peter Hewett <gramps@...>
> > > Objet: [Gramps-users] layout editor for graphviz
> > > À: "Gramps Users List" <gramps-users@...>
> > > Date: Samedi 18 décembre 2010, 22h57
> > > 
> > > Is there a GUI editor for graphviz charts?
> > > 
> > > The report generator in Gramps does a pretty good
> job of
> > > optimising the layout
> > > of large charts, and the sub-graph option can
> sometimes
> > > improve things.
> > > However, for some of my charts, the layout could
> be
> > > improved quite a bit by
> > > just reordering some nodes.  A graphical
> tool for this
> > > would be great - is
> > > there such a thing?  (There are several
> different
> > > graphviz viewers, but I'm
> > > after a layout editor.)
> > > 
> > > Apparently, it is possible to rearrange the
> layout by
> > > editing the .gv text
> > > file.  Is there a description of how to do
> this
> > > anywhere?  From trying some
> > > example charts, there doesn't seem to be a
> consistent
> > > correlation between the
> > > sequence of the text file and the layout on the
> chart, so
> > > perhaps I'm missing something here.
> > > 
> > > TIA
> > > 
> > > Peter
> > > 
> > >
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > ----- Lotusphere 2011
> > > Register now for Lotusphere 2011 and learn how
> > > to connect the dots, take your collaborative
> environment
> > > to the next level, and enter the era of Social
> Business.
> > > http://p.sf.net/sfu/lotusphere-d2d
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > Gramps-users mailing list
> > > Gramps-users@...
> > > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Lotusphere 2011
> Register now for Lotusphere 2011 and learn how
> to connect the dots, take your collaborative environment
> to the next level, and enter the era of Social Business.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/lotusphere-d2d
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> Gramps-users@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>

Hello Peter,

One option you could try is to produce your Graphviz charts in SVG format and 
use an SVG editor such as Inkscape to tweak them.

Bye

Gary




----- Original Message ----
> From: Peter Hewett <gramps@...>
> To: Gramps Users List <gramps-users@...>
> Sent: Sat, 18 December, 2010 21:57:36
> Subject: [Gramps-users] layout editor for graphviz
> 
> 
> Is there a GUI editor for graphviz charts?
> 
> The report generator in  Gramps does a pretty good job of optimising the layout 
>
> of large charts, and  the sub-graph option can sometimes improve things.
> However, for some of my  charts, the layout could be improved quite a bit by 
> just reordering some  nodes.  A graphical tool for this would be great - is 
> there such a  thing?  (There are several different graphviz viewers, but I'm 
> after a  layout editor.)
> 
> Apparently, it is possible to rearrange the layout by  editing the .gv text 
> file.  Is there a description of how to do this  anywhere?  From trying some 
> example charts, there doesn't seem to be a  consistent correlation between the 

> sequence of the text file and the layout  on the chart, so perhaps I'm missing 

> something  here.
> 
> TIA
> 
> Peter
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Lotusphere  2011
> Register now for Lotusphere 2011 and learn how
> to connect the dots,  take your collaborative environment
> to the next level, and enter the era of  Social Business.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/lotusphere-d2d
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users  mailing list
> Gramps-users@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 02:30:11 Gary Burton wrote:
> Hello Peter,
> 
> One option you could try is to produce your Graphviz charts in SVG format
> and use an SVG editor such as Inkscape to tweak them.
 
 Thanks

I'll give that a try.

But then the very next time you make changes to your database and
re-generate the graph, you'll be back where you started.

The only true viable option you have is to find some command-line parameters
to 'dot' to alter the behaviour of the layout engine, or else to find a
settings in the .gv file to tweak which makes 'dot' layout the graph
differently.

What exactly are you trying to do?

Stéphane


On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 05:30, Gary Burton <bury_lancs@...> wrote:

> Hello Peter,
>
> One option you could try is to produce your Graphviz charts in SVG format
> and
> use an SVG editor such as Inkscape to tweak them.
>
> Bye
>
> Gary
>
>

On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:07:19 Stéphane Charette wrote:
> But then the very next time you make changes to your database and
> re-generate the graph, you'll be back where you started.
> 
> The only true viable option you have is to find some command-line
> parameters to 'dot' to alter the behaviour of the layout engine, or else
> to find a settings in the .gv file to tweak which makes 'dot' layout the
> graph differently.
> 
> What exactly are you trying to do?
 
The chart is basically ok, but there are some lines crossed, which makes it 
hard to follow ancestory lines.  Turning subgraphs on sometimes improves 
things, sometimes not.

What I'd like to do is reorder the items, which would untangle the lines.  In 
some cases, it might not be possible to completely avoid crossed lines, but in 
the cases I'm looking at, they could be made much better.
http://www.hewett.co.nz/images/chartwithoutsubgraph.png
http://www.hewett.co.nz/images/chartwithsubgraph.png

When I looked at the graphviz docs, the attributes seemed to be for colours, 
fonts, arrowhead style, etc.  I'll look further to see if I can find ways to 
adjust the layout engine.

TIA

Peter


 
> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 05:30, Gary Burton <bury_lancs@...> wrote:
> > Hello Peter,
> > 
> > One option you could try is to produce your Graphviz charts in SVG format
> > and use an SVG editor such as Inkscape to tweak them.
> > 
> > Bye
> > 
> > Gary

There are options you can use to tell graphviz (dot) to think about it
harder to uncross lines.  And in verbose mode, it will print out the number
of crosses and you can see it work down to (nearly) zero if you're lucky.
In Gramps, choose to generate a .gv file as the output.

Then, edit the .gv file with a text editor.  Now I haven't done this in a
few years, but from what I remember some of the things that have an effect
were:


   - group <http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:group>  (?)
   - mclimit <http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:mclimit>
   - searchsize <http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:searchsize>


The other settings I recently discovered which I'd like to try out with
Gramps to see what happens is
constraint<http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:constraint>.
How would dot lay out all the nodes if every edge was marked as
constraint=false?

Looking at the dot --help output right now, I'd also be interested in
looking up additional help on the -n[v] parameter, the -x parameter, maybe
-Lg, and definitely -ln<i>.  And like I said above, I recall that when using
-v to enable verbose mode, it prints out a message every second or so to say
how many lines have crossed, and possibly how much longer it will keep
looking for further optimizations.

Stéphane



On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 23:30, Peter Hewett <gramps@...> wrote:

> On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 08:07:19 Stéphane Charette wrote:
> > But then the very next time you make changes to your database and
> > re-generate the graph, you'll be back where you started.
> >
> > The only true viable option you have is to find some command-line
> > parameters to 'dot' to alter the behaviour of the layout engine, or else
> > to find a settings in the .gv file to tweak which makes 'dot' layout the
> > graph differently.
> >
> > What exactly are you trying to do?
>
> The chart is basically ok, but there are some lines crossed, which makes it
> hard to follow ancestory lines.  Turning subgraphs on sometimes improves
> things, sometimes not.
>
> What I'd like to do is reorder the items, which would untangle the lines.
>  In
> some cases, it might not be possible to completely avoid crossed lines, but
> in
> the cases I'm looking at, they could be made much better.
> http://www.hewett.co.nz/images/chartwithoutsubgraph.png
> http://www.hewett.co.nz/images/chartwithsubgraph.png
>
> When I looked at the graphviz docs, the attributes seemed to be for
> colours,
> fonts, arrowhead style, etc.  I'll look further to see if I can find ways
> to
> adjust the layout engine.
>
> TIA
>
> Peter
>
>
>
> > On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 05:30, Gary Burton <bury_lancs@...>
> wrote:
> > > Hello Peter,
> > >
> > > One option you could try is to produce your Graphviz charts in SVG
> format
> > > and use an SVG editor such as Inkscape to tweak them.
> > >
> > > Bye
> > >
> > > Gary
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Lotusphere 2011
> Register now for Lotusphere 2011 and learn how
> to connect the dots, take your collaborative environment
> to the next level, and enter the era of Social Business.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/lotusphere-d2d
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> Gramps-users@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>

thanks Stéphane, those hints were relevant and I now know that what I am after 
is minimising crossings, and that this is done within dot.

Unfortunately, the various dot options don't seem to have improved things.  My 
chart has 17 crossings for 494 nodes.  The -v option is great for showing a 
bit more of what is happening.  I am using dot 2.26.3 on Kubuntu 10.10.

group - can't see how to use this
mclimit - takes longer but no improvement
searchsize - no change
-Econstraint=false  - used in command line, this puts all nodes in one 
vertical line (ie trashes the diagram)
-n<i>  - no change
-x  - no change
-Lg  - no change
-ln<i>  - no change

Reordering the lines in the .gv text file changes the results, sometimes 
improving and sometimes making things worse (more crossings).  I managed to 
get the result down to 12 crossings, but this approach is very hit and miss.  
There doesn't seem to be any logic to how to improve order of the text lines 
to get the best result.

Perhaps the answer is to improve how dot optimises the layout to minimise 
crossings, but I'm not sure how to do this.

I'll keep exploring.

regards

Peter


On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 22:55:38 Stéphane Charette wrote:
> There are options you can use to tell graphviz (dot) to think about it
> harder to uncross lines.  And in verbose mode, it will print out the number
> of crosses and you can see it work down to (nearly) zero if you're lucky.
> In Gramps, choose to generate a .gv file as the output.
> 
> Then, edit the .gv file with a text editor.  Now I haven't done this in a
> few years, but from what I remember some of the things that have an effect
> were:
>    - group <http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:group>  (?)
>    - mclimit <http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:mclimit>
>    - searchsize <http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:searchsize>
> 
> 
> The other settings I recently discovered which I'd like to try out with
> Gramps to see what happens is
> constraint<http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:constraint>.
> How would dot lay out all the nodes if every edge was marked as
> constraint=false?
> 
> Looking at the dot --help output right now, I'd also be interested in
> looking up additional help on the -n[v] parameter, the -x parameter, maybe
> -Lg, and definitely -ln<i>.  And like I said above, I recall that when
> using -v to enable verbose mode, it prints out a message every second or
> so to say how many lines have crossed, and possibly how much longer it
> will keep looking for further optimizations.
> 
> Stéphane
>

Also note that 'dot' is one of a half-dozen layout engines.  There are other
ones, such as 'neato', and ...?  I forget the other names, but you'll find
them on the graphviz site.

Neato has a lot of potential for us.  I tried playing with it for about an
hour the other night when I replied to your other e-mail, but I don't have
time to figure out the details.  It works by laying out the graph,
...well...an example is worth 1000 words:

(warning, 7mb file)
http://charette.no-ip.com:1234/Charette/dot.png

(warning, 2mb file)
http://charette.no-ip.com:1234/Charette/neato.png

So while 'dot' is very grid-like in nature, 'neato' feels much more fluid.
But in the short time I looked into it the other night, I couldn't figure
out what needs to change in the .gv file to fix the node spacing.

Anyway, all this to say we're barely scratching the surface when it comes to
GraphViz.  If anyone wanted to spend some time going through the GraphViz
docs and trying things out with their genealogy graphs, I'm sure we could
incorporate suggestions easily into Gramps.

Stéphane


On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 00:25, Peter Hewett <gramps@...> wrote:

>
> thanks Stéphane, those hints were relevant and I now know that what I am
> after
> is minimising crossings, and that this is done within dot.
>
> Unfortunately, the various dot options don't seem to have improved things.
>  My
> chart has 17 crossings for 494 nodes.  The -v option is great for showing a
> bit more of what is happening.  I am using dot 2.26.3 on Kubuntu 10.10.
>
> group - can't see how to use this
> mclimit - takes longer but no improvement
> searchsize - no change
> -Econstraint=false  - used in command line, this puts all nodes in one
> vertical line (ie trashes the diagram)
> -n<i>  - no change
> -x  - no change
> -Lg  - no change
> -ln<i>  - no change
>
> Reordering the lines in the .gv text file changes the results, sometimes
> improving and sometimes making things worse (more crossings).  I managed to
> get the result down to 12 crossings, but this approach is very hit and
> miss.
> There doesn't seem to be any logic to how to improve order of the text
> lines
> to get the best result.
>
> Perhaps the answer is to improve how dot optimises the layout to minimise
> crossings, but I'm not sure how to do this.
>
> I'll keep exploring.
>
> regards
>
> Peter
>
>
> On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 22:55:38 Stéphane Charette wrote:
> > There are options you can use to tell graphviz (dot) to think about it
> > harder to uncross lines.  And in verbose mode, it will print out the
> number
> > of crosses and you can see it work down to (nearly) zero if you're lucky.
> > In Gramps, choose to generate a .gv file as the output.
> >
> > Then, edit the .gv file with a text editor.  Now I haven't done this in a
> > few years, but from what I remember some of the things that have an
> effect
> > were:
> >    - group <http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:group>  (?)
> >    - mclimit <http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:mclimit>
> >    - searchsize <
> http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:searchsize>
> >
> >
> > The other settings I recently discovered which I'd like to try out with
> > Gramps to see what happens is
> > constraint<http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:constraint>.
> > How would dot lay out all the nodes if every edge was marked as
> > constraint=false?
> >
> > Looking at the dot --help output right now, I'd also be interested in
> > looking up additional help on the -n[v] parameter, the -x parameter,
> maybe
> > -Lg, and definitely -ln<i>.  And like I said above, I recall that when
> > using -v to enable verbose mode, it prints out a message every second or
> > so to say how many lines have crossed, and possibly how much longer it
> > will keep looking for further optimizations.
> >
> > Stéphane
> >
>
>

Hi,

> I am using dot 2.26.3 on Kubuntu 10.10

Does KGraphEditor (provided with KGraphViewer) cannot edit nodes or lines ?


Jérôme

--- En date de : Mar 21.12.10, Peter Hewett <gramps@...> a écrit :

> De: Peter Hewett <gramps@...>
> Objet: Re: [Gramps-users] layout editor for graphviz
> À: "Gramps Users List" <gramps-users@...>, "Stéphane Charette" <stephanecharette@...>
> Date: Mardi 21 décembre 2010, 9h25
> 
> thanks Stéphane, those hints were relevant and I now know
> that what I am after 
> is minimising crossings, and that this is done within dot.
> 
> Unfortunately, the various dot options don't seem to have
> improved things.  My 
> chart has 17 crossings for 494 nodes.  The -v option
> is great for showing a 
> bit more of what is happening.  I am using dot 2.26.3
> on Kubuntu 10.10.
> 
> group - can't see how to use this
> mclimit - takes longer but no improvement
> searchsize - no change
> -Econstraint=false  - used in command line, this puts
> all nodes in one 
> vertical line (ie trashes the diagram)
> -n<i>  - no change
> -x  - no change
> -Lg  - no change
> -ln<i>  - no change
> 
> Reordering the lines in the .gv text file changes the
> results, sometimes 
> improving and sometimes making things worse (more
> crossings).  I managed to 
> get the result down to 12 crossings, but this approach is
> very hit and miss.  
> There doesn't seem to be any logic to how to improve order
> of the text lines 
> to get the best result.
> 
> Perhaps the answer is to improve how dot optimises the
> layout to minimise 
> crossings, but I'm not sure how to do this.
> 
> I'll keep exploring.
> 
> regards
> 
> Peter
> 
> 
> On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 22:55:38 Stéphane Charette wrote:
> > There are options you can use to tell graphviz (dot)
> to think about it
> > harder to uncross lines.  And in verbose mode, it
> will print out the number
> > of crosses and you can see it work down to (nearly)
> zero if you're lucky.
> > In Gramps, choose to generate a .gv file as the
> output.
> > 
> > Then, edit the .gv file with a text editor.  Now
> I haven't done this in a
> > few years, but from what I remember some of the things
> that have an effect
> > were:
> >    - group <http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:group> 
> (?)
> >    - mclimit <http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:mclimit>
> >    - searchsize <http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:searchsize>
> > 
> > 
> > The other settings I recently discovered which I'd
> like to try out with
> > Gramps to see what happens is
> > constraint<http://www.graphviz.org/doc/info/attrs.html#d:constraint>.
> > How would dot lay out all the nodes if every edge was
> marked as
> > constraint=false?
> > 
> > Looking at the dot --help output right now, I'd also
> be interested in
> > looking up additional help on the -n[v] parameter, the
> -x parameter, maybe
> > -Lg, and definitely -ln<i>.  And like I
> said above, I recall that when
> > using -v to enable verbose mode, it prints out a
> message every second or
> > so to say how many lines have crossed, and possibly
> how much longer it
> > will keep looking for further optimizations.
> > 
> > Stéphane
> > 
> 
> 
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On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 22:50:35 Stéphane Charette wrote:
> Also note that 'dot' is one of a half-dozen layout engines.  There are
> other ones, such as 'neato', and ...?  I forget the other names, but
> you'll find them on the graphviz site.
> 
> Neato has a lot of potential for us.  I tried playing with it for about an
> hour the other night when I replied to your other e-mail, but I don't have
> time to figure out the details.  It works by laying out the graph,
> ...well...an example is worth 1000 words:
> 
> (warning, 7mb file)
> http://charette.no-ip.com:1234/Charette/dot.png
> 
> (warning, 2mb file)
> http://charette.no-ip.com:1234/Charette/neato.png

I tried neato and got very similar results, with nodes overlapping badly.  
With options, it is possible to separate them, but the separation is too 
great, giving small nodes and long lines (edges) between them.

> So while 'dot' is very grid-like in nature, 'neato' feels much more fluid.
> But in the short time I looked into it the other night, I couldn't figure
> out what needs to change in the .gv file to fix the node spacing.
> 
> Anyway, all this to say we're barely scratching the surface when it comes
> to GraphViz.  If anyone wanted to spend some time going through the
> GraphViz docs and trying things out with their genealogy graphs, I'm sure
> we could incorporate suggestions easily into Gramps.
 
I'll try to look into it further, but we are away for a couple of weeks after 
Christmas, so it might be in January some time.

However, from my experimenting so far, it looks like the mclimit set to 99 (as 
in Gramps) is about right, rather than the default 30.  In the files I tried, 
the optimum was usually reached after 40 or 50 runs (lines of dot -v) and 
increasing mclimit above 99 didn't help.

regards


Peter

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 23:33:55 jerome wrote:
> 
> > I am using dot 2.26.3 on Kubuntu 10.10
> 
> Does KGraphEditor (provided with KGraphViewer) cannot edit nodes or lines ?
>

Hi Jerome,
kgrapheditor enables you to edit node parameters, but I can't see any way to 
use it to adjust the layout. 

The nearest I can find to a GUI layout editor is dotty, but it seems very buggy 
(some menu items don't work, numlock key breaks some stuff).


regards

Peter