Inkscape

I'd be interested in producing a custom extension for this problem. My
way of approaching the problem might be slightly different from yours
though (depending on whether inkscape stores the circle centrepoints
and radii for a collection of merged circles, if not it might require
that the circles are not merged before the extension is installed).

I'm a fairly seasoned programmer, but I'm very new to open source
development, though I've been a user of open source software for
years. I have made a couple of extensions for inkscape recently.

I don't think work for hire is against the philosophy of Free software
or open source at all, if you have an unusual request that no-one else
seems to need, then it's not going to write itself. Payment is still
the number one way to get people to do things!

If you'd like to, we can continue to talk over private email.

Thanks,
Craig

On 21 August 2010 08:52, Drechsel Wolf <edv-e@...> wrote:
> Hello everybody,
>
> probabely there are lots of thoughts on this, so I'd be grateful for
> some hints:
>
> I do have some very special wishes on inkscape developement:
>
> # Improving the Mac OS X integration
> # implement a routine which counts the number of objects surrounded by
> another object:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/621627
>
> Esp. the first has hardly moved forward during the last year, since
> I've started watching it. Is there a way of funding a special
> developement, which obviously does not attract a lot of attention?
>
> Inkscape is free - alternatively I'd to pay 1000s of Euros for a
> "professional" product - with all its disacvantages. So I'd be happy
> to donate a number of Euros - and probabely some other people as well
> - to pay somebody to get special work done, which would not be done
> otherwise.
>
> Is there a mechanism for that? - Could there be one? - Maybe some
> young person would be interested to earn a small sum, learn and get
> experienced - and get some work done within a professional
> environment? - Or is that idea completely against the spirit of open
> source?
>
> Have a nice weekend!
>
> Wolf
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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>
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> _______________________________________________
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> Inkscape-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>

Sorry - to clarify, if it's not obvious - it was the second request
that I am interested in. I don't know enough yet about the inkscape
internals to help with any core code.

Thanks,
Craig

On 21 August 2010 10:09, Craig Marshall <craig9@...> wrote:
> I'd be interested in producing a custom extension for this problem. My
> way of approaching the problem might be slightly different from yours
> though (depending on whether inkscape stores the circle centrepoints
> and radii for a collection of merged circles, if not it might require
> that the circles are not merged before the extension is installed).
>
> I'm a fairly seasoned programmer, but I'm very new to open source
> development, though I've been a user of open source software for
> years. I have made a couple of extensions for inkscape recently.
>
> I don't think work for hire is against the philosophy of Free software
> or open source at all, if you have an unusual request that no-one else
> seems to need, then it's not going to write itself. Payment is still
> the number one way to get people to do things!
>
> If you'd like to, we can continue to talk over private email.
>
> Thanks,
> Craig
>
> On 21 August 2010 08:52, Drechsel Wolf <edv-e@...> wrote:
>> Hello everybody,
>>
>> probabely there are lots of thoughts on this, so I'd be grateful for
>> some hints:
>>
>> I do have some very special wishes on inkscape developement:
>>
>> # Improving the Mac OS X integration
>> # implement a routine which counts the number of objects surrounded by
>> another object:
>> https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/621627
>>
>> Esp. the first has hardly moved forward during the last year, since
>> I've started watching it. Is there a way of funding a special
>> developement, which obviously does not attract a lot of attention?
>>
>> Inkscape is free - alternatively I'd to pay 1000s of Euros for a
>> "professional" product - with all its disacvantages. So I'd be happy
>> to donate a number of Euros - and probabely some other people as well
>> - to pay somebody to get special work done, which would not be done
>> otherwise.
>>
>> Is there a mechanism for that? - Could there be one? - Maybe some
>> young person would be interested to earn a small sum, learn and get
>> experienced - and get some work done within a professional
>> environment? - Or is that idea completely against the spirit of open
>> source?
>>
>> Have a nice weekend!
>>
>> Wolf
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by
>>
>> Make an app they can't live without
>> Enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/RIM-dev2dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> Inkscape-devel mailing list
>> Inkscape-devel@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>>
>

Hi Craig,

> I'd be interested in producing a custom extension for this problem. My
> way of approaching the problem might be slightly different from yours
> though (depending on whether inkscape stores the circle centrepoints
> and radii for a collection of merged circles, if not it might require
> that the circles are not merged before the extension is installed).

If I understand you correctly the solution you have in mind would
require the outline to be a composition of circles. However, I can
imagine many other use cases for this kind of request in slightly
different circumstances where the outline is a general path (and the
items to be counted may be arbitrary objects). Even though he
implementation seems easiest at first if you restrict yourself to
circles, I would very much recommend not to make any assumptions to
that effect and keep the functionality as generic as possible. Of
course it would be overkill to implement a test whether an arbitrary
path contains another in your extension code, but have a look at
lib2geom [1], the geometry library underlying Inkscape. I haven't
checked recently but it might contain functions to test wether one
path lies with the boundaries of another (or at least whether a given
point lies within a path, which might already be enough for your
purposes if you only take the centers of the small red dots into
account). If it doesn't, this should definitely be implemented anyway.
:) The libary also has Python bindings.

On a different note, instead of counting the items within the outline
path directly, it might be better (as in: give more flexibility for
other use cases) to provide an easy way to *select* them. See my
comments on the bug report:
https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/621627

Hope this helps,
Max

[1] http://lib2geom.sourceforge.net/

on the "funding inkscape developement" matter.

I agree for a form of professional support - Inkscape must have paid
support at least for future DTP / Logo design / ***  customers.
With commercial support development speed can be much improved.
Also a form of paid support for features on demand should exist.

Excepting speed rendering Inkscape is quite capable for DTP work and
for sure he will be until press ready until Inkscape one point zero.
I've recently compiled the GSOC code under Ubuntu and I see big speed
improvements with Cairo enabled rendering.
(Probably with Cairo 1.10 rendering speed will not be a problem anymore).

All in all, professional studios will not use Inkscape without tech-support.
That mean they will not use Linux at full potential (just for
rendering farms) - because Adobe will never port Creative suite on
Linux.
Linux world has a big gap on this area.
And if Inkscape, GIMP, Scribus - will not accept that the paid
technical support is a real need for designers / companies which don't
like MS OS, no chance for Linux to become important on desktop.

+1 vote for Inkscape Foundation  ;)


2010/8/21 Maximilian Albert <maximilian.albert@...>:
> Hi Craig,
>
>> I'd be interested in producing a custom extension for this problem. My
>> way of approaching the problem might be slightly different from yours
>> though (depending on whether inkscape stores the circle centrepoints
>> and radii for a collection of merged circles, if not it might require
>> that the circles are not merged before the extension is installed).
>
> If I understand you correctly the solution you have in mind would
> require the outline to be a composition of circles. However, I can
> imagine many other use cases for this kind of request in slightly
> different circumstances where the outline is a general path (and the
> items to be counted may be arbitrary objects). Even though he
> implementation seems easiest at first if you restrict yourself to
> circles, I would very much recommend not to make any assumptions to
> that effect and keep the functionality as generic as possible. Of
> course it would be overkill to implement a test whether an arbitrary
> path contains another in your extension code, but have a look at
> lib2geom [1], the geometry library underlying Inkscape. I haven't
> checked recently but it might contain functions to test wether one
> path lies with the boundaries of another (or at least whether a given
> point lies within a path, which might already be enough for your
> purposes if you only take the centers of the small red dots into
> account). If it doesn't, this should definitely be implemented anyway.
> :) The libary also has Python bindings.
>
> On a different note, instead of counting the items within the outline
> path directly, it might be better (as in: give more flexibility for
> other use cases) to provide an easy way to *select* them. See my
> comments on the bug report:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/621627
>
> Hope this helps,
> Max
>
> [1] http://lib2geom.sourceforge.net/
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by
>
> Make an app they can't live without
> Enter the BlackBerry Developer Challenge
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/RIM-dev2dev
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>



-- 
Nemes Ioan Sorin

Drechsel Wolf wrote:
> ...
> Inkscape is free - alternatively I'd to pay 1000s of Euros for a  
> "professional" product - with all its disacvantages. So I'd be happy  
> to donate a number of Euros - and probabely some other people as well  
> - to pay somebody to get special work done, which would not be done  
> otherwise.
> 
> Is there a mechanism for that? - Could there be one? - Maybe some  
> young person would be interested to earn a small sum, learn and get  
> experienced - and get some work done within a professional  
> environment? - Or is that idea completely against the spirit of open  
> source?
> ...

With a bit of googling there seem to be quite a number of sites for 
arranging freelance work like this. I don't know if anyone here has an 
experience with such a site or would be able to recommend one, but my 
guess would be that it might be easiest and most transparent to just 
post your requests on such a site and announce it here, especially if 
you also want to let others donate.

I'm sure the lib2geom library will help a great deal. That will save
me wondering how to implement cubic bezier curve equations for paths
constructed from joined circles!

I agree with everything you say - a general solution is definitely
preferred. Also, making the program select the objects within the
boundary shouldn't be any more difficult than just counting them
(assuming the extension interface or SVG spec offers hooks for
defining selections).

You mention that it could also be useful to filter the object types, I
agree with that.

You also raise the question, what does it mean for an object to lie
inside the path? It can be interpreted many ways as you started to
explore:

a) Does the centrepoint of each inner object lie within the zero-width
boundary of the outer object?
b) Do the inner object's boundary lines lie entirely within the outer
object's boundary line? Or:
c) You could conceivably even take into account stroke-width as well;
a 5px diameter circle might really be a 1px diameter circle with a 4px
stroke width.
d) ...I'm sure there are more ways of deciding.

I imagine Drechsel has a fairly specific use case in mind.

I see the attraction of creating a very general purpose extension to
solve this, but my aim for now would be to come up with a solution
that will solve the problem at hand. Clearly, if there are features
that would otherwise require substantial rewriting of code or other
duplication of effort (i.e. code for searching *all* paths, not just
circles, if that's within my abilities), then it makes sense to make
the extension do those things the first time round.

However, if there are ideas for even more general features that are
not needed for this problem, and, equally importantly, that can also
easily be added later (when and if there's a need or desire; e.g.
filtering by object type, finer-grained options about where the
contained objects lie), then I might leave those for later or for
others to implement. I suppose it will depend on my own free time and
enthusiasm too. If I still have time and energy left after the main
problem is solved, then I may well be interested in writing these
extra features. I just don't want to set up expectations for extras at
this stage.

Thanks,
Craig

On 21 August 2010 10:49, Maximilian Albert
<maximilian.albert@...> wrote:
> Hi Craig,
>
>> I'd be interested in producing a custom extension for this problem. My
>> way of approaching the problem might be slightly different from yours
>> though (depending on whether inkscape stores the circle centrepoints
>> and radii for a collection of merged circles, if not it might require
>> that the circles are not merged before the extension is installed).
>
> If I understand you correctly the solution you have in mind would
> require the outline to be a composition of circles. However, I can
> imagine many other use cases for this kind of request in slightly
> different circumstances where the outline is a general path (and the
> items to be counted may be arbitrary objects). Even though he
> implementation seems easiest at first if you restrict yourself to
> circles, I would very much recommend not to make any assumptions to
> that effect and keep the functionality as generic as possible. Of
> course it would be overkill to implement a test whether an arbitrary
> path contains another in your extension code, but have a look at
> lib2geom [1], the geometry library underlying Inkscape. I haven't
> checked recently but it might contain functions to test wether one
> path lies with the boundaries of another (or at least whether a given
> point lies within a path, which might already be enough for your
> purposes if you only take the centers of the small red dots into
> account). If it doesn't, this should definitely be implemented anyway.
> :) The libary also has Python bindings.
>
> On a different note, instead of counting the items within the outline
> path directly, it might be better (as in: give more flexibility for
> other use cases) to provide an easy way to *select* them. See my
> comments on the bug report:
> https://bugs.launchpad.net/inkscape/+bug/621627
>
> Hope this helps,
> Max
>
> [1] http://lib2geom.sourceforge.net/
>

On 8/21/10, SorinN wrote:

> All in all, professional studios will not use Inkscape without tech-support.

Where did you get this idea from?

> And if Inkscape, GIMP, Scribus - will not accept that the paid
> technical support is a real need for designers / companies which don't
> like MS OS, no chance for Linux to become important on desktop.

So what you are saying, in fact, is that:

- being able to produce CMYK separated PDF/PS/EPS is not top priority
- being able to correctly open legacy project data is not top priority
- being able to interact with contractors who use e.g. CS5 is not top priority

But commercial tech support will magically make Linux a viable
platform for designers?

Amazing. You live and learn.

No, I actually like the idea of a foundation. But there's a thing
called prerequisites. And the most important one is having a project
leader.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org

On 21 August 2010 00:52, Drechsel Wolf <edv-e@...> wrote:
>
> Is there a mechanism for that?

This mailing list can be used to find freelance developers, and
 http://www.kickstarter.com can be used to find people to pool money with. I
am sure that if you post on mac-centric forums and general graphic
design lists (and SVG lists that are not specific to free software)
you can find enough users to fund what you want.

There's also the "GNU Herds" webapp for running a kickstarter service
on free software :-)

> Or is that idea completely against the spirit of open source?

No, free software is about freedom, not price; and there are many
businesses that are built around the GPL.

You may find http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html interesting.

Free software = free market :-)

However, speaking only for myself, i am less interested in efforts to
port Inkscape to Mac because they don't use OS X and would prefer that
people switch to GNU/Linux :-)

On 8/22/10, Dave Crossland wrote:

> This mailing list can be used to find freelance developers, and
> http://www.kickstarter.com can be used to find people to pool money with.

It looks like we already have some sort of relationship with
http://linuxfund.org

>> Or is that idea completely against the spirit of open source?
>
> No, free software is about freedom, not price; and there are many
> businesses that are built around the GPL.

There is one tricky thing here, however. Once you have people working
for money, it's important to maintain existing community of volunteers
who might feel less motivated to work for free when there are people
who want to works on things for money. Not many projects have such an
experience, and not all projects that have it can call it positive.

Another thing is how you keep money flowing in. GIMP project seems to
have this covered, but I simply have no idea if the income it has
allows someone work full-time on the project, unless we are talking
about third world rates. And note that Inkscape is less popular than
GIMP which theoretically means less income.

So far for Inkscape project the only paid projects I know of are GSoC
projects and Tav's work on the Text tool. GSoC projects are only
partly successful, though we got some dedicated programmers from them
like Johan, Maximilian or Krzysztof. Tav's project was very
successful, albeit he was second programmer to work on it.

Also, the project's PayPal account is still locked (to the best of my
knowledge), and nobody ever replied to the mail in this list that
asked about http://inkscape.org/donate.php. To me it means that there
is no person in the team who is in charge for financial side of
things.

Once again, this is not to say that we don't need to grow into a
commercially successful (or at least self-supporting) project. But
first things first: we urgently need to get organized again.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Alexandre Prokoudine [mailto:alexandre.prokoudine@...] 
> Sent: zondag 22 augustus 2010 18:11
> To: inkscape-devel@...
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] funding inkscape developement
> 
> On 8/22/10, Dave Crossland wrote:
> 
> > This mailing list can be used to find freelance developers, and 
> > http://www.kickstarter.com can be used to find people to pool money with.
> 
> It looks like we already have some sort of relationship with 
> http://linuxfund.org
> 
> >> Or is that idea completely against the spirit of open source?
> >
> > No, free software is about freedom, not price; and there are many 
> > businesses that are built around the GPL.

For me, free software is a little bit about not getting payed. But, I am
still not familiar the free software community. I think what I like
better is that money is donated afterwards to somebody, instead of
offering it before writing some code. (such that the money is a reward
for doing something you had no idea about getting money for it, instead
of the money being a motivation)


> From: Alexandre Prokoudine [mailto:alexandre.prokoudine@...] 
> Sent: zondag 22 augustus 2010 18:11
> 
> There is one tricky thing here, however. Once you have people 
> working for money, it's important to maintain existing 
> community of volunteers who might feel less motivated to work 
> for free when there are people who want to works on things 
> for money. Not many projects have such an experience, and not 
> all projects that have it can call it positive.

After my first shot at the PowerStroke LPE, I received an excited mail
from Dave Crossland about whether I was interested in working on it
full-time for a while being payed. That got me thinking. Here a list of
some of the questions I have, for you to have a peek inside the mind of
one developer.

- if I get payed for PowerStroke, will that make me only work on
Inkscape for money afterwards?

- how much time should one invest in a payed project? 
   I have to work on Inkscape in my spare time, so 10 hours a week would
feel pretty much 'full-time'. But, given a lot of prior experience with
Inkscape coding, 10 hours can give big output results. (the current
powerstroke took about 12 hours, I'm guessing)

- I'd have to not-do other things, coding for Inkscape instead. How much
money would motivate me to work on PowerStroke, instead of, for example,
practice guitar or go to friends? And how much money is reasonable to
ask?  
(I have not worked on PowerStroke for a couple of weeks now, how come?)

- If I need advice from others, or ask others to code something for me,
or (indirectly) spend some time on the project I am doing, is that fair?

Alexandre:
> ... GSoC 
> projects are only partly successful, though we got some 
> dedicated programmers from them like Johan, ...

Small correction, I was already working actively on Inkscape before I
did my first GSoC. :)   Probably 90% of the reason to apply for GSoC was
the money.

> Once again, this is not to say that we don't need to grow 
> into a commercially successful (or at least self-supporting) 
> project. But first things first: we urgently need to get 
> organized again.

I have absolutely no knowledge of how other open source software
projects are organized, and cannot judge on this one.

Ciao,
  Johan

An introduction from the project's wiki:
Teaching Open Source "is a neutral collaboration point for professors,
institutions, communities, and companies to come together and make the
teaching of Open Source a global success."  It is legitimate to note
that Red Hat, Inc. has been the primary source of project support,
thus far.  This does not preclude others participating.

They offer a wiki page for FOSS projects that will mentor new
participants in the community,
http://teachingopensource.org/index.php/FOSS_Mentor_Projects

"Beyond the scope of the Google Summer of Code program, there are many
Free and Open Source Software projects who would welcome the
opportunity to mentor students interested in working on their
projects. These projects may also be willing to mentor local
professors who are interested in teaching FOSS in their classrooms.
This page contains a list of FOSS projects who would like to mentor
students and educators, along with resources for learning more about
each project. There is additional information for those who would like
to get involved in the overall project and help connect students and
educators to FOSS projects."

In my opinion, this is a stepping stone for those who wish to be
remunerated for their efforts.  It solves the old problem of how you
show experience that warrants your involvement in a project and the
project's need to have inexpensive, but committed, labor to improve
the product.

If I remember correctly, Inkscape project members have served as
Google Summer of Code mentors in the past.  The above referenced page
is a resource that is available all year long for any project or
participant.

Personal note:
Teaching Open Source is my current point of concentration so I may
become an adequate participant in other Free/Libre Open Source
Software projects.