Inkscape

On 4/1/07, David Christian Berg <david@...> wrote:
> Hey guys!
>
> I've seen several screenshots with Tango icons being used. However, I
> just don't manage to find these icons for Inkscape anywhere. Could you
> maybe give me a hint? Or even better, can anybody include them in SVN?

http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape+icons+set?content=48140

Alexandre

David Christian Berg wrote:
> Hey guys!
>
> I've seen several screenshots with Tango icons being used. However, I
> just don't manage to find these icons for Inkscape anywhere. Could you
> maybe give me a hint? Or even better, can anybody include them in SVN?
>
> Thanks!
>
> David
>   
Hi David!
Do you mean these?
http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/icons.svg
It's the set Silvestre, Andrew, Lapo and myself have been working on now 
for a while.
If anyone wants to include them in svn, that's fine with me. Licensed as 
gpl.
- Andreas

David Christian Berg wrote:
> On Tue, 2007-04-03 at 00:24 +0200, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
>   
>> David Christian Berg wrote:
>>     
>>> Hey guys!
>>>
>>> I've seen several screenshots with Tango icons being used. However, I
>>> just don't manage to find these icons for Inkscape anywhere. Could you
>>> maybe give me a hint? Or even better, can anybody include them in SVN?
>>>
>>> Thanks!
>>>
>>> David
>>>   
>>>       
>> Hi David!
>> Do you mean these?
>> http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/icons.svg
>> It's the set Silvestre, Andrew, Lapo and myself have been working on now 
>> for a while.
>> If anyone wants to include them in svn, that's fine with me. Licensed as 
>> gpl.
>> - Andreas
>>     
>
>
> Jupp, that's what I'm talking about... even including the bucket, though
> only for fill and stroke.
> However, I assume you are reusing icons form the Tango theme and hence
> you'd have to license it as Creative Commons, if I'm not mistaken. I
> guess that wouldn't be a problem anyways, though.
>   
Even though tango-icon-theme is licensed as creative commons, these do 
not contain any material from that set. Some stuff is reused from 
gnome-icon-theme, gimp and scribus, so the license is gpl.
- Andreas

On 4/3/07, Andreas Nilsson wrote:
> > I've seen several screenshots with Tango icons being used. However, I
> > just don't manage to find these icons for Inkscape anywhere. Could you
> > maybe give me a hint? Or even better, can anybody include them in SVN?
> >
> Hi David!
> Do you mean these?
> http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/icons.svg
> It's the set Silvestre, Andrew, Lapo and myself have been working on now
> for a while.
> If anyone wants to include them in svn, that's fine with me. Licensed as
> gpl.

So, people, do we want this in SVN?

Alexandre

I was reading the release notes for the upcoming GIMP release
(http://gimp.org/release-notes/gimp-2.4.html ), and I noticed that they are
updating their icon set to one that adheres to the tango guidelines. I was
wondering what everyone thinks about using the inkscape tango icons
set(http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape+icons+set?conte
nt=48140 ) as default.

 

I know that the current revision of this icon set is incomplete in some
parts (eg: Tweak and Bucket Fill.) 

 

Just thought I would throw the idea out there.

 

Cheers,

 

ryanlerch

Definitely it should be used. I'm using it since a while and I'm totally
contend.

just my 2 =C2=A2

David


On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 08:15 +1000, Ryan Lerch wrote:
> I was reading the release notes for the upcoming GIMP release
> (http://gimp.org/release-notes/gimp-2.4.html ), and I noticed that
> they are updating their icon set to one that adheres to the tango
> guidelines. I was wondering what everyone thinks about using the
> inkscape tango icons
> set(http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape+icons
> +set?content=3D48140 ) as default=E2=80=A6
>=20
> =20
>=20
> I know that the current revision of this icon set is incomplete in
> some parts (eg: Tweak and Bucket Fill=E2=80=A6)=20
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Just thought I would throw the idea out there=E2=80=A6
>=20
> =20
>=20
> Cheers,
>=20
> =20
>=20
> ryanlerch
>=20
> =20
>=20
> =20
>=20
>=20
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing li=
st Inkscape-devel@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists=
/listinfo/inkscape-devel

Ryan Lerch wrote:
>
> I was reading the release notes for the upcoming GIMP release 
> (http://gimp.org/release-notes/gimp-2.4.html ), and I noticed that 
> they are updating their icon set to one that adheres to the tango 
> guidelines. I was wondering what everyone thinks about using the 
> inkscape tango icons 
> set(http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape+icons+set?content=48140 
> ) as default…
>
> I know that the current revision of this icon set is incomplete in 
> some parts (eg: Tweak and Bucket Fill…)
>
> Just thought I would throw the idea out there…
>
> Cheers,
>
> ryanlerch
>
Weddeburn and myself cleaned some of those up a bit a while ago. We 
could probably fix the remaining ones in a couple of days and make sure 
the tool icons sync with those used by gimp(2.4) and scribus(latest).
1. http://andreasn.se/diverse/temp/icons.svg

- Andreas

I think this will be a third time Inkscape replaces all its icons for
some new ones. Personally I see little sense in this, to me no set is
definitely better than others, and I rather dislike the Tango style
which I think is quite drab. Still I won't object, provided this
change will be the last one :)

David, if you're using Tango, can we delete the old David_icons.svg
that we still have in share/icons? It is missing too many icons by now
anyway.

On 8/23/07, David Christian Berg <david@...> wrote:
> Definitely it should be used. I'm using it since a while and I'm totally
> contend.
>
> just my 2 =A2
>
> David
>
>
> On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 08:15 +1000, Ryan Lerch wrote:
> > I was reading the release notes for the upcoming GIMP release
> > (http://gimp.org/release-notes/gimp-2.4.html ), and I noticed that
> > they are updating their icon set to one that adheres to the tango
> > guidelines. I was wondering what everyone thinks about using the
> > inkscape tango icons
> > set(http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape+icons
> > +set?content=3D48140 ) as default=85
> >
> >
> >
> > I know that the current revision of this icon set is incomplete in
> > some parts (eg: Tweak and Bucket Fill=85)
> >
> >
> >
> > Just thought I would throw the idea out there=85
> >
> >
> >
> > Cheers,
> >
> >
> >
> > ryanlerch
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.splunk.com/
> > _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing =
list Inkscape-devel@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lis=
ts/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>


--=20
bulia byak
Inkscape. Draw Freely.
http://www.inkscape.org

On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 12:19 -0300, bulia byak wrote:
> I think this will be a third time Inkscape replaces all its icons for
> some new ones. Personally I see little sense in this, to me no set is
> definitely better than others, and I rather dislike the Tango style
> which I think is quite drab.
Well, it's so much better than the old gnome default! And mainly it is
about how great it is to have a standard for the Linux desktop. There
even is a Tango set for Scribus.
If with time we manage to have Inkscape, GIMP and Scribus not only have
the same style but actually share as many icons as possible that would
be great for usability in the "creative suite".

> Still I won't object, provided this
> change will be the last one :)

Thanks :)

> David, if you're using Tango, can we delete the old David_icons.svg
> that we still have in share/icons? It is missing too many icons by now
> anyway.

Well, I wouldn't object. Even before, I wouldn't have objected, I mean,
_I_ could use it anyways.


David


> On 8/23/07, David Christian Berg <david@...> wrote:
> > Definitely it should be used. I'm using it since a while and I'm totall=
y
> > contend.
> >
> > just my 2 =C2=A2
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> > On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 08:15 +1000, Ryan Lerch wrote:
> > > I was reading the release notes for the upcoming GIMP release
> > > (http://gimp.org/release-notes/gimp-2.4.html ), and I noticed that
> > > they are updating their icon set to one that adheres to the tango
> > > guidelines. I was wondering what everyone thinks about using the
> > > inkscape tango icons
> > > set(http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape+icons
> > > +set?content=3D48140 ) as default=E2=80=A6
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > I know that the current revision of this icon set is incomplete in
> > > some parts (eg: Tweak and Bucket Fill=E2=80=A6)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Just thought I would throw the idea out there=E2=80=A6
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ryanlerch
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------=
----
> > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > > Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> > > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browse=
r.
> > > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.splunk.com/
> > > _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailin=
g list Inkscape-devel@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/l=
ists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
> >
> >
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.splunk.com/
> > _______________________________________________
> > Inkscape-devel mailing list
> > Inkscape-devel@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
> >
>=20
>=20

Hi!

I'm already using the tango icons, and for the missing ones I just =
import the current ones (don't have much time to redraw them in tango =
style). IMO tango icons are a lot better than the current ones and =
should be the default ones.

An idea: what if we organize a contest on openclipart.org, so people can =
submit the missing icons in tabgo style? I'm sure that a lot of inkscape =
users will be very happy to help!

Molumen


  ----- Original Message -----=20
  From: Ryan Lerch=20
  To: 'Inkscape Devel List'=20
  Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 12:15 AM
  Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Tango Icons


  I was reading the release notes for the upcoming GIMP release =
(http://gimp.org/release-notes/gimp-2.4.html ), and I noticed that they =
are updating their icon set to one that adheres to the tango guidelines. =
I was wondering what everyone thinks about using the inkscape tango =
icons =
set(http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape+icons+set?co=
ntent=3D48140 ) as default.

  =20

  I know that the current revision of this icon set is incomplete in =
some parts (eg: Tweak and Bucket Fill.)=20

  =20

  Just thought I would throw the idea out there.

  =20

  Cheers,

  =20

  ryanlerch

  =20

  =20



-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----


  =
-------------------------------------------------------------------------=

  This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
  Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
  Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a =
browser.
  Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.splunk.com/


-------------------------------------------------------------------------=
-----


  _______________________________________________
  Inkscape-devel mailing list
  Inkscape-devel@...
  https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 20:35 +0200, momo wrote:
> Hi!
>  
> I'm already using the tango icons, and for the missing ones I just
> import the current ones (don't have much time to redraw them in tango
> style). IMO tango icons are a lot better than the current ones and
> should be the default ones.
>  
> An idea: what if we organize a contest on openclipart.org, so people
> can submit the missing icons in tabgo style? I'm sure that a lot of
> inkscape users will be very happy to help!
>  
> Molumen

Yes, that would be very cool...we can set that up...might be difficult
to manage, do you have ideas how we can make that contest easy since
there are multiple targets?

Jon

>  
>         ----- Original Message ----- 
>         From: Ryan Lerch 
>         To: 'Inkscape Devel List' 
>         Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 12:15 AM
>         Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Tango Icons
>         
>         
>         I was reading the release notes for the upcoming GIMP release
>         (http://gimp.org/release-notes/gimp-2.4.html ), and I noticed
>         that they are updating their icon set to one that adheres to
>         the tango guidelines. I was wondering what everyone thinks
>         about using the inkscape tango icons
>         set(http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape
>         +icons+set?content=48140 ) as default…
>         
>          
>         
>         I know that the current revision of this icon set is
>         incomplete in some parts (eg: Tweak and Bucket Fill…) 
>         
>          
>         
>         Just thought I would throw the idea out there…
>         
>          
>         
>         Cheers,
>         
>          
>         
>         ryanlerch
>         
>          
>         
>          
>         
>         
>         
>         ______________________________________________________________
>         
>         -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>         This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
>         Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
>         Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a
>         browser.
>         Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>
>         http://get.splunk.com/ 
>         
>         
>         ______________________________________________________________
>         
>         _______________________________________________
>         Inkscape-devel mailing list
>         Inkscape-devel@...
>         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
-- 
Jon Phillips

San Francisco, CA
USA PH 510.499.0894
jon@...
http://www.rejon.org

MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto
Jabber Chat: rejon@...
IRC: rejon@...

is there any way to change the standard GTK + icons on the windows
build to the tango style also?

On 8/25/07, Jon Phillips <jon@...> wrote:
> On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 20:35 +0200, momo wrote:
> > Hi!
> >
> > I'm already using the tango icons, and for the missing ones I just
> > import the current ones (don't have much time to redraw them in tango
> > style). IMO tango icons are a lot better than the current ones and
> > should be the default ones.
> >
> > An idea: what if we organize a contest on openclipart.org, so people
> > can submit the missing icons in tabgo style? I'm sure that a lot of
> > inkscape users will be very happy to help!
> >
> > Molumen
>
> Yes, that would be very cool...we can set that up...might be difficult
> to manage, do you have ideas how we can make that contest easy since
> there are multiple targets?
>
> Jon
>
> >
> >         ----- Original Message -----
> >         From: Ryan Lerch
> >         To: 'Inkscape Devel List'
> >         Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 12:15 AM
> >         Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Tango Icons
> >
> >
> >         I was reading the release notes for the upcoming GIMP release
> >         (http://gimp.org/release-notes/gimp-2.4.html ), and I noticed
> >         that they are updating their icon set to one that adheres to
> >         the tango guidelines. I was wondering what everyone thinks
> >         about using the inkscape tango icons
> >         set(http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape
> >         +icons+set?content=3D48140 ) as default=85
> >
> >
> >
> >         I know that the current revision of this icon set is
> >         incomplete in some parts (eg: Tweak and Bucket Fill=85)
> >
> >
> >
> >         Just thought I would throw the idea out there=85
> >
> >
> >
> >         Cheers,
> >
> >
> >
> >         ryanlerch
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >         ______________________________________________________________
> >
> >         ---------------------------------------------------------------=
----------
> >         This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> >         Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> >         Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a
> >         browser.
> >         Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>
> >         http://get.splunk.com/
> >
> >
> >         ______________________________________________________________
> >
> >         _______________________________________________
> >         Inkscape-devel mailing list
> >         Inkscape-devel@...
> >         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
> > -----------------------------------------------------------------------=
--
> > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.splunk.com/
> > _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing =
list Inkscape-devel@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lis=
ts/listinfo/inkscape-devel
> --
> Jon Phillips
>
> San Francisco, CA
> USA PH 510.499.0894
> jon@...
> http://www.rejon.org
>
> MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto
> Jabber Chat: rejon@...
> IRC: rejon@...
>
>

On Sat, 2007-08-25 at 08:37 +1000, ryan lerch wrote:
> is there any way to change the standard GTK + icons on the windows
> build to the tango style also?

Right, well, simply you could just overwrite the old icons.svg with the
tango ones ;)

I'm not sure what the preferred way to do this is, but sure, why not,
power to the committer of this change...

Jon

> On 8/25/07, Jon Phillips <jon@...> wrote:
> > On Fri, 2007-08-24 at 20:35 +0200, momo wrote:
> > > Hi!
> > >
> > > I'm already using the tango icons, and for the missing ones I just
> > > import the current ones (don't have much time to redraw them in tango
> > > style). IMO tango icons are a lot better than the current ones and
> > > should be the default ones.
> > >
> > > An idea: what if we organize a contest on openclipart.org, so people
> > > can submit the missing icons in tabgo style? I'm sure that a lot of
> > > inkscape users will be very happy to help!
> > >
> > > Molumen
> >
> > Yes, that would be very cool...we can set that up...might be difficult
> > to manage, do you have ideas how we can make that contest easy since
> > there are multiple targets?
> >
> > Jon
> >
> > >
> > >         ----- Original Message -----
> > >         From: Ryan Lerch
> > >         To: 'Inkscape Devel List'
> > >         Sent: Friday, August 24, 2007 12:15 AM
> > >         Subject: [Inkscape-devel] Tango Icons
> > >
> > >
> > >         I was reading the release notes for the upcoming GIMP release
> > >         (http://gimp.org/release-notes/gimp-2.4.html ), and I noticed
> > >         that they are updating their icon set to one that adheres to
> > >         the tango guidelines. I was wondering what everyone thinks
> > >         about using the inkscape tango icons
> > >         set(http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape
> > >         +icons+set?content=48140 ) as default…
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         I know that the current revision of this icon set is
> > >         incomplete in some parts (eg: Tweak and Bucket Fill…)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Just thought I would throw the idea out there…
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         Cheers,
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         ryanlerch
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >         ______________________________________________________________
> > >
> > >         -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > >         This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > >         Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> > >         Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a
> > >         browser.
> > >         Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>
> > >         http://get.splunk.com/
> > >
> > >
> > >         ______________________________________________________________
> > >
> > >         _______________________________________________
> > >         Inkscape-devel mailing list
> > >         Inkscape-devel@...
> > >         https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
> > > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> > > Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> > > Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> > > Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.splunk.com/
> > > _______________________________________________ Inkscape-devel mailing list Inkscape-devel@... https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
> > --
> > Jon Phillips
> >
> > San Francisco, CA
> > USA PH 510.499.0894
> > jon@...
> > http://www.rejon.org
> >
> > MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto
> > Jabber Chat: rejon@...
> > IRC: rejon@...
> >
> >
-- 
Jon Phillips

San Francisco, CA
USA PH 510.499.0894
jon@...
http://www.rejon.org

MSN, AIM, Yahoo Chat: kidproto
Jabber Chat: rejon@...
IRC: rejon@...

ryan lerch wrote:
> is there any way to change the standard GTK + icons on the windows
> build to the tango style also?
>   
Hi Ryan!
You mean stuff like open, new, save etc?
Those are coming in gtk 2.12. Will be released in September.
- Andreas

>> is there any way to change the standard GTK + icons on the windows=0D=0A=
>> build to the tango style also?=0D=0A>>   =0D=0A> Hi Ryan!=0D=0A> You mea=
n stuff like open, new, save etc?=0D=0A> Those are coming in gtk 2.12. Will=
 be released in September.=0D=0A> - Andreas=0D=0A=0D=0AAndreas: That's wond=
erful wonderful news, I'm so glad to hear it. It's going to massively impro=
ve a lot of gtk apps for windows users. But for the rest of the inkscape ic=
ons - like the drawing tools etc, the windows users will want the tango ico=
ns for these as well, simply because they're very much more in keeping with=
 the Windows style. So I agree with ryan; i think we should change these ov=
er as soon as we can.=0D=0A=0D=0A----------------------------------------=
=0D=0AFrom: Andreas Nilsson <nisses.mail@...: Saturday, Augu=
st 25, 2007 10:54 AM=0D=0ATo: ryan lerch <ryanlerch@...=
: SPAM-LOW:  Re: [Inkscape-devel] Tango Icons =0D=0A=0D=0Aryan lerch wrote:=
=0D=0A> is there any way to change the standard GTK + icons on the windows=
=0D=0A> build to the tango style also?=0D=0A>   =0D=0AHi Ryan!=0D=0AYou mea=
n stuff like open, new, save etc?=0D=0AThose are coming in gtk 2.12. Will b=
e released in September.=0D=0A- Andreas=0D=0A=0D=0A------------------------=
-------------------------------------------------=0D=0AThis SF.net email is=
 sponsored by: Splunk Inc.=0D=0AStill grepping through log files to find pr=
oblems?  Stop.=0D=0ANow Search log events and configuration files using AJA=
X and a browser.=0D=0ADownload your FREE copy of Splunk now >>  http://get.=
splunk.com/=0D=0A_______________________________________________=0D=0AInksc=
ape-devel mailing list=0D=0AInkscape-devel@...=
://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel=0D=0A=0D=0A

Hello everyone,

I am just reviving an old discussion on this mailing list about
changing the current icon theme to the benefit of a Tangoified one.
For those not having it in your mailbox anymore here is the archive:
	http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.comp.graphics.inkscape.devel/21956/focus=22004
and the icons in question:
	http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape+icons+set?content=48140

While I agree that some of those may need more work (they often appear
more blurry than current ones and hence can be a bit visually
confusing) I think that overall they look better than the current set.

I also agree with bulia [see previous discussion] that change for the
sake of change is not the way to go. But in the end, I don't think it
really is a matter of how the icons look but more a question of how
Inkscape looks compared to other applications. All of Gnome switched
to Tango recently, Gimp 2.4 uses Tango-style icons (and they sure look
marvelous), Scribus also and many more projects follow (OpenOffice,
etc.) and having the same visual conventions helps. In addition these
Tango style icons look good on Windows XP and OS X which is important
for a cross platform app. I have been using them instead of the
default for a little while on my OS X box and, even if they are not
photorealistic as most OS X icons are, they really fit in quite well.

So I was wondering: is anyone willing to work a bit more on these
icons before releasing 0.46, so that they look as gorgeous as Gimp's
ones by then? If they do look gorgeous, what would be your position
about integrating them? If we can't find a consensus, how would you
feel about a per platform decision?
Indeed, if the un-sharpness is fixed for some of these, I would really
like to use them on OS X at least, since they integrate better with
the rest and they would be welcome with the new GTK theme we are using
on this platform. Furthermore, the problem may also occur on Windows
since the XP look and the Vista look are quite different.

So, what do you think? who volunteers (Andreas, wedderburn)?

JiHO
---
http://jo.irisson.free.fr/

jiho wrote:
> 
> So I was wondering: is anyone willing to work a bit more on these 
> icons before releasing 0.46, so that they look as gorgeous as Gimp's 
> ones by then?
> 

I will be happy to do this if nobody else is keen.  Or at least give it shot
since I can't prove my ability to do the job to everyone satisfaction.

Although, Inkscape shares many of the same tools as GIMP and Scribus.  Is it
possible to pull their icons?  I haven't been able to find a public
repository of icons for these applications.
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13377636
Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

>From what I have seen from the preview's to gimp 2.4, some of the icons may
have already been shared...

Cheers,

ryanlerch

> -----Original Message-----
> From: inkscape-devel-bounces@... [mailto:inkscape-devel-
> bounces@...] On Behalf Of microUgly
> Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2007 12:19 PM
> To: inkscape-devel@...
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Tango Icons
> 
> 
> 
> jiho wrote:
> >
> > So I was wondering: is anyone willing to work a bit more on these
> > icons before releasing 0.46, so that they look as gorgeous as Gimp's
> > ones by then?
> >
> 
> I will be happy to do this if nobody else is keen.  Or at least give it
> shot
> since I can't prove my ability to do the job to everyone satisfaction.
> 
> Although, Inkscape shares many of the same tools as GIMP and Scribus.  Is
> it
> possible to pull their icons?  I haven't been able to find a public
> repository of icons for these applications.
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-
> tf4320411.html#a13377636
> Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

> microUgly wrote
> possible to pull their icons?  I haven't been able to find a public
> repository of icons for these applications.

AFAIK, both the current inkscape tango icons and the gimp tango icons are
based off the tango art-libre set from tango project:

http://tango.freedesktop.org/ArtLibreSet

cheers,

ryanlerch

ryan lerch wrote:
> 
> AFAIK, both the current inkscape tango icons and the gimp tango icons are
> based off the tango art-libre set from tango project:
> 
> http://tango.freedesktop.org/ArtLibreSet
> 
> cheers,
> 
> ryanlerch
> 

That's embarrasing.  I was at that site, but didn't find that page.
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13378439
Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

>From what I can tell from that page, most of the icons that we may need are
covered in that "Spec" but a lot seem to be not drawn yet, 

If we start working on them, we should work closely with the tango guys, so
the 1 job isn't being done twice by two different open communities...

(that's my 2 cents anyway...)

Cheers, 

ryanlerch 

> -----Original Message-----
> From: inkscape-devel-bounces@... [mailto:inkscape-devel-
> bounces@...] On Behalf Of microUgly
> Sent: Wednesday, 24 October 2007 1:28 PM
> To: inkscape-devel@...
> Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Tango Icons
> 
> 
> 
> ryan lerch wrote:
> >
> > AFAIK, both the current inkscape tango icons and the gimp tango icons
> are
> > based off the tango art-libre set from tango project:
> >
> > http://tango.freedesktop.org/ArtLibreSet
> >
> > cheers,
> >
> > ryanlerch
> >
> 
> That's embarrasing.  I was at that site, but didn't find that page.
> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-
> tf4320411.html#a13378439
> Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel

On 2007-October-24  , at 05:21 , Ryan Lerch wrote:
>> microUgly wrote
>> possible to pull their icons?  I haven't been able to find a public
>> repository of icons for these applications.
>
> AFAIK, both the current inkscape tango icons and the gimp tango  
> icons are
> based off the tango art-libre set from tango project:
>
> http://tango.freedesktop.org/ArtLibreSet

Indeed, and that's probably why some don't look crisp and clear in  
Inkscape yet: they may not be hinted at the right size. From what I  
know of the Tango workflow, the icons are designed in vector at large  
size and then the smaller sizes are tweaked in a raster editor. If  
the large Tango vector icons are scaled down without being hinted or  
not scaled down enough to match Inkscape's sizes, that makes them  
look "blurry" or "jaggy" in a GTK theme (i.e. with icon sizes) which  
fits current icon theme well.

For information a set of sizes in a GTK theme which works well with  
current icons is:
gtk-icon-sizes = "gtk-menu=16,16:gtk-dialog=48,48:gtk-dnd=32,32:gtk- 
button=20,20:gtk-large-toolbar=24,24:gtk-small-toolbar=16,16:inkscape- 
decoration=12,12"
inkscape-decoration are locks, the "Affect" icons etc. Furthermore,  
the toolbars use gtk-small-toolbar (16px) while most other apps use  
gtk-large-toolbar (commonly 24px). But anyway, keeping compatibility  
with current theme should be paramount, so Tango icons should be  
hinted in their vector version at the size of their current  
equivalent to look as crisp as now. I am sure this was already done  
for some, but apparently not for all of them.
I am conscious that all this depends on the GTK theme but I imagine  
that's the price to pay for vector icons.

>> From what I can tell from that page, most of the icons that we may  
>> need are
> covered in that "Spec" but a lot seem to be not drawn yet,
>
> If we start working on them, we should work closely with the tango  
> guys, so
> the 1 job isn't being done twice by two different open communities...
>
> (that's my 2 cents anyway...)

Since many Inkscape icons will need to be drawn at smaller sizes than  
what the Tango guys usually work at, this may interfere though.

It would be really nice to see these improve. Thanks for showing  
interest!

JiHO
---
http://jo.irisson.free.fr/

On 2007-October-24  , at 05:38 , Ryan Lerch wrote:
>> From what I can tell from that page, most of the icons that we may  
>> need are
> covered in that "Spec" but a lot seem to be not drawn yet,
>
> If we start working on them, we should work closely with the tango  
> guys, so
> the 1 job isn't being done twice by two different open communities...
>
> (that's my 2 cents anyway...)

Also, about that, the best way to progress quickly on this would  
probably be to have a Tango Friday[1] on Inkscape. Since many Tango  
artists probably use Inkscape I guess they would be likely to provide  
it with the icon look they love.
Does anyone work closely with Tango and knows someone who does? What  
is the procedure to set up a Tango Friday on Inkscape?

[1] http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Fridays

JiHO
---
http://jo.irisson.free.fr/

On 2007-October-24  , at 10:02 , jiho wrote:

> On 2007-October-24  , at 05:38 , Ryan Lerch wrote:
>>> From what I can tell from that page, most of the icons that we  
>>> may need are
>> covered in that "Spec" but a lot seem to be not drawn yet,
>>
>> If we start working on them, we should work closely with the tango  
>> guys, so
>> the 1 job isn't being done twice by two different open communities...
>>
>> (that's my 2 cents anyway...)
>
> Also, about that, the best way to progress quickly on this would  
> probably be to have a Tango Friday[1] on Inkscape. Since many Tango  
> artists probably use Inkscape I guess they would be likely to  
> provide it with the icon look they love.
> Does anyone work closely with Tango and knows someone who does?  
> What is the procedure to set up a Tango Friday on Inkscape?
>
> [1] http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Fridays

Add, as Elisa pointed out to me, there is a wiki page started about  
this:
	http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/TangoifiedIcons
It would be a good place to collect ideas and opinions. I'll try to  
make a check list of which icon are at the "right size" or not in the  
Tango set.
Plus: is there a way to post things in the wiki, like the SVG file of  
the icons for example, without storing it elsewhere and putting a  
link? Or maybe the SVG icons files would deserve to be in the SVN  
repos. I can commit it if no one objects.

JiHO
---
http://jo.irisson.free.fr/

Ryan Lerch wrote:
> >From what I can tell from that page, most of the icons that we may need are
> covered in that "Spec" but a lot seem to be not drawn yet, 
>
> If we start working on them, we should work closely with the tango guys, so
> the 1 job isn't being done twice by two different open communities...
>
> (that's my 2 cents anyway...)
>
> Cheers, 
>
> ryanlerch 
>   
If you're suggesting to contribute to the ArtLibre set, I agree.  If we
could make a list of which icons from that set go where in Inkscape,
that would be a nice first step.  I've started a wiki page (
http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/TangoifiedIcons ) where we can
begin doing this.  Maybe someone with power could add this to the main
page under the "how to help without coding" section.

Anyone have contact already with the Tango people?  If not, I'd be glad
to contact them (unless someone else wants to) to find out the best way
to proceed.

JF

jiho wrote:
>> Also, about that, the best way to progress quickly on this would  
>> probably be to have a Tango Friday[1] on Inkscape. Since many Tango  
>> artists probably use Inkscape I guess they would be likely to  
>> provide it with the icon look they love.
>> Does anyone work closely with Tango and knows someone who does?  
>> What is the procedure to set up a Tango Friday on Inkscape?
>>
>> [1] http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Fridays
>>     
That would be great.
> Plus: is there a way to post things in the wiki, like the SVG file of  
> the icons for example, without storing it elsewhere and putting a  
> link? Or maybe the SVG icons files would deserve to be in the SVN  
> repos. I can commit it if no one objects.
>   
I was thinking this would be the way to go - however, maybe there's a
reason for not doing so since it hasn't been put there yet?

JF

Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
> 
> If we
> could make a list of which icons from that set go where in Inkscape,
> that would be a nice first step.  I've started a wiki page (
> http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/TangoifiedIcons ) where we can
> begin doing this.

I don't know much about working with Wiki's, but I was all set to upload the
complete list.  I was hoping to display the icons from my own host in the
interim as manually uploading 246 images did not sound like fun :)  But it
seems you can't link to external images?

What's the quickest and easiest way to get 246 images onto the Wiki?
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13425002
Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

microUgly wrote:
> Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
>   
>> If we
>> could make a list of which icons from that set go where in Inkscape,
>> that would be a nice first step.  I've started a wiki page (
>> http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/TangoifiedIcons ) where we can
>> begin doing this.
>>     
>
> I don't know much about working with Wiki's, but I was all set to upload the
> complete list.  I was hoping to display the icons from my own host in the
> interim as manually uploading 246 images did not sound like fun :)  But it
> seems you can't link to external images?
>
> What's the quickest and easiest way to get 246 images onto the Wiki?
>   
What's your idea of fun, then :O)

I was thinking a quick upload of the whole svg file would suffice for 
the time being, but I think it would definitely be helpful to upload 
individually, since then you could do a list with the old icon or the 
new if it's got a replacement.  (Is that what you had in mind?)

I don't know if there's a way to upload a bunch without a special 
plugin.  If there's not, I'll help (starting from the opposite end of 
the list :)

JF

Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
> 
> but I think it would definitely be helpful to upload 
> individually, since then you could do a list with the old icon or the 
> new if it's got a replacement.  (Is that what you had in mind?)

That's exactly what I had in mind :)  


I don't know if there's a way to upload a bunch without a special 
> plugin.  If there's not, I'll help (starting from the opposite end of 
> the list :)

If we have to.  And I suppose we do, as since it has to be added to both the
filesystem and database.  The sys administrator would have to write an
insert query - which would be very quick and easy if you know how.

What I might do is get the Wiki/HTML code in place.  That way as we add
images we can see them appear on the page.

Should we choose a naming format for the original and tango icons?  i.e.
orig_[ink_name].png and tango_[tango_name].png
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13435186
Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

microUgly wrote:
>
> Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
>   
>> but I think it would definitely be helpful to upload 
>> individually, since then you could do a list with the old icon or the 
>> new if it's got a replacement.  (Is that what you had in mind?)
>>     
>
> That's exactly what I had in mind :)
>   
Sweet!
>
> I don't know if there's a way to upload a bunch without a special 
>   
>> plugin.  If there's not, I'll help (starting from the opposite end of 
>> the list :)
>>     
>
> If we have to.  And I suppose we do, as since it has to be added to both the
> filesystem and database.  The sys administrator would have to write an
> insert query - which would be very quick and easy if you know how.
>   
Yes, and if you had the access :)
> What I might do is get the Wiki/HTML code in place.  That way as we add
> images we can see them appear on the page.
>   
That sounds great.
> Should we choose a naming format for the original and tango icons?  i.e.
> orig_[ink_name].png and tango_[tango_name].png
>   
Do tango names use underscores or dashes for spaces?  We should probably 
use what they use, but your format looks fine.

JF

On Oct 24, 2007, at 1:56 AM, jiho wrote:

> Add, as Elisa pointed out to me, there is a wiki page started about
> this:
> 	http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/TangoifiedIcons
> It would be a good place to collect ideas and opinions. I'll try to
> make a check list of which icon are at the "right size" or not in the
> Tango set.

I just added a bit in a new section there. Basically we would want to  
get hooked up "properly" to load icons from standard places so that  
we can allow the user to do things in his theme and have Inkscape  
respect that.

Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
> 
> Do tango names use underscores or dashes for spaces?  We should probably 
> use what they use, but your format looks fine.
> 

Yeah, Tango has a specific naming format, but since the Wiki doesn't have
folders I wanted to make sure we didn't run into conflicting file names. 
The names used for uploading the images wouldn't neccessarily be the names
used for the icons... if that makes sense :)
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13439214
Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
> 
> microUgly wrote:
>>
>> Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
>>   
>>> but I think it would definitely be helpful to upload 
>>> individually, since then you could do a list with the old icon or the 
>>> new if it's got a replacement.  (Is that what you had in mind?)
>>>     
>>
>> That's exactly what I had in mind :)
>>   
> Sweet!
> 

HTML is now up.  And I've uploaded the first 16 icons for the tools... only
230 to go :)  I've included a link to ZIP file of all the icons
(http://www.microugly.com/orig-inkscape-icons.zip)  with the correct
filenames for anyone who wants to help upload the icons.

If there is any problems with how I created the tables, just say.  I can
modify them pretty easily with either a WYSIWYG editor or regular
expressions.  The only tedious part I've had so far was grouping the icons.
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13439579
Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

microUgly wrote:
> Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
>   
>> microUgly wrote:
>>     
>>> Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> but I think it would definitely be helpful to upload 
>>>> individually, since then you could do a list with the old icon or the 
>>>> new if it's got a replacement.  (Is that what you had in mind?)
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> That's exactly what I had in mind :)
>>>   
>>>       
>> Sweet!
>>
>>     
>
> HTML is now up.  And I've uploaded the first 16 icons for the tools... only
> 230 to go :)  I've included a link to ZIP file of all the icons
> (http://www.microugly.com/orig-inkscape-icons.zip)  with the correct
> filenames for anyone who wants to help upload the icons.
>
> If there is any problems with how I created the tables, just say.  I can
> modify them pretty easily with either a WYSIWYG editor or regular
> expressions.  The only tedious part I've had so far was grouping the icons.
>   
Hi!
Sorry for the late reply on this.
I've started adding some icons on the page and will upload all my work I 
have on my disk during the weekend.
- Andreas

Andreas Nilsson wrote:
> 
> Sorry for the late reply on this.
> I've started adding some icons on the page and will upload all my work I 
> have on my disk during the weekend.
> - Andreas
> 

Hey Andreas,

I was thinking the "Current Tango ArtLibreSet" column could be used for
icons already included in the ArtLibreSet
(http://tango.freedesktop.org/ArtLibreSet - esp those already used by GIMP),
whilst the "Proposed Icon" column would be for new icons not yet adopted as
a part of ArtLibreSet.

What do you think?

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13448311
Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

On 10/24/07, jiho <jo.irisson@...> wrote:
> Add, as Elisa pointed out to me, there is a wiki page started about
> this:
>         http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/TangoifiedIcons

I'm sorry to spoil the party but I really, really don't like the
"proposed icon" column for tools. They:

-  are too pale and too different in blackness/visual clout - some are
barely visible on a LCD (star), some are much more visible, but
overall they are much paler and drabber than our current set

- lack meaningful parallelism: it is not coincidental that pen,
pencil, and calligraphic pen in our current set are all drawn at the
same slant; in tango the pen is way too different in all aspects,
breaking the consistency of drawing tools

- lack coordination with our mouse cursors: in our current set, node
tool uses this thin triangular black pointer depicted on its icon, and
paintbucket cursor is also similar to the icon - this is not the case
with proposed icons

- lack a lot of meaningful details that help Inkscape user understand
the purpose and operation of the tool: cursor in Text, handles and
gradient line in Gradient, both polygon and star in Star tool to
suggest it can create both, mnemonic colors of shape tools that
correspond to their default colors in newly installed Inkscape.

I think that these problems outweigh the advantages if any, and I just
don't see a convincing reason for the change.

-- 
bulia byak
Inkscape. Draw Freely.
http://www.inkscape.org

On 10/29/07, bulia byak <buliabyak@...> wrote:
> On 10/24/07, jiho <jo.irisson@...> wrote:
> > Add, as Elisa pointed out to me, there is a wiki page started about
> > this:
> >         http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/TangoifiedIcons
>
> I'm sorry to spoil the party but I really, really don't like the
> "proposed icon" column for tools. They:
>
> -  are too pale and too different in blackness/visual clout - some are
> barely visible on a LCD (star), some are much more visible, but
> overall they are much paler and drabber than our current set
>
> - lack meaningful parallelism: it is not coincidental that pen,
> pencil, and calligraphic pen in our current set are all drawn at the
> same slant; in tango the pen is way too different in all aspects,
> breaking the consistency of drawing tools
>
> - lack coordination with our mouse cursors: in our current set, node
> tool uses this thin triangular black pointer depicted on its icon, and
> paintbucket cursor is also similar to the icon - this is not the case
> with proposed icons
>
> - lack a lot of meaningful details that help Inkscape user understand
> the purpose and operation of the tool: cursor in Text, handles and
> gradient line in Gradient, both polygon and star in Star tool to
> suggest it can create both, mnemonic colors of shape tools that
> correspond to their default colors in newly installed Inkscape.
>
> I think that these problems outweigh the advantages if any, and I just
> don't see a convincing reason for the change.
>

While a few of the Icons currently have issues that can probably be
resolved, I feel that making this change will help Users of GIMP,
Scribus, and Inkscape have a more consistent and almost Suite-ish
feeling. Yes I know more integration than that is really need but it a
nice (first,second??) step. Since Tango is open, well you know the
rest. Anyway about the cursors they could be changed also to match. I
forget why we had to back out the color cursor patch a few releases
ago, wonder if there has been any recent to resolve it?

I think most of your issues are resolvable.

Joshua L. Blocher
verbalshadow


> --
> bulia byak
> Inkscape. Draw Freely.
> http://www.inkscape.org
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>

bulia byak wrote:
> 
> I'm sorry to spoil the party but I really, really don't like the
> "proposed icon" column for tools. [...] I think that these problems
> outweigh the advantages if any

You probably already know, but just in case, in most cases these are the
tango icons accepted and adopted by GIMP and Scribus.  The obvious,
immediate, and documented advantage is visual unification between software.

Are you suggesting Inkscape should not adopt the Tango icons, define new
ones that conform to the Tango guidlines but better reflect what is already
used, or don't make any changes?


I don't think your arguements are incorrect, but I don't feel they should be
weighted as heavily as you have.


-  are too pale and too different in blackness/visual clout
I think this is artistic opinion.  It's not a true negative.  Some would
feel they look cleaner because of the this.


it is not coincidental that pen, pencil, and calligraphic pen in our current
set are all drawn at the same slant;
True, but it's not an unusual difference.  Photoshop also uses the slant for
all its tools with the exception of the pen.  This is true for Fireworks
also.  I wonder if this is to help distinguish the difference of how the
tools are used -  Pencil and Calligraphy are suited to a natural drawing
style (i.e. Graphics tablet) whilst the Pen is not.


lack coordination with our mouse cursors:
Granted.  I don't think unification of these icons between software is a
benefit over having the icon reflect the shape of the Select and Node tool. 
Although, I see no reason why the paintbucket cursor can't be updated to
reflect the tango icon.


lack a lot of meaningful details that help Inkscape user understand 
> the purpose and operation of the tool. cursor in Text, handles and 
> gradient line in Gradient[...]
I would argue those extra details are simply that.  Inkscape is the only
software I've seen that goes to that much detail for tools commonly seen in
many other programs.  It's possible these details may confuse new users. 
This was true for myself with the Gradient tool. It looks near identical to
the rectangle tool but it has nodes - I couldn't guess what it did, and I've
used lots of software with gradient tools.


mnemonic colors of shape tools that correspond to their default colors in
newly installed Inkscape
That's why they are different colours!? :)

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13478807
Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

seconded. :-) nothing more to say.


On Mon, 2007-10-29 at 15:53 -0700, microUgly wrote:
> 
> bulia byak wrote:
> > 
> > I'm sorry to spoil the party but I really, really don't like the
> > "proposed icon" column for tools. [...] I think that these problems
> > outweigh the advantages if any
> 
> You probably already know, but just in case, in most cases these are the
> tango icons accepted and adopted by GIMP and Scribus.  The obvious,
> immediate, and documented advantage is visual unification between software.
> 
> Are you suggesting Inkscape should not adopt the Tango icons, define new
> ones that conform to the Tango guidlines but better reflect what is already
> used, or don't make any changes?
> 
> 
> I don't think your arguements are incorrect, but I don't feel they should be
> weighted as heavily as you have.
> 
> 
> -  are too pale and too different in blackness/visual clout
> I think this is artistic opinion.  It's not a true negative.  Some would
> feel they look cleaner because of the this.
> 
> 
> it is not coincidental that pen, pencil, and calligraphic pen in our current
> set are all drawn at the same slant;
> True, but it's not an unusual difference.  Photoshop also uses the slant for
> all its tools with the exception of the pen.  This is true for Fireworks
> also.  I wonder if this is to help distinguish the difference of how the
> tools are used -  Pencil and Calligraphy are suited to a natural drawing
> style (i.e. Graphics tablet) whilst the Pen is not.
> 
> 
> lack coordination with our mouse cursors:
> Granted.  I don't think unification of these icons between software is a
> benefit over having the icon reflect the shape of the Select and Node tool. 
> Although, I see no reason why the paintbucket cursor can't be updated to
> reflect the tango icon.
> 
> 
> lack a lot of meaningful details that help Inkscape user understand 
> > the purpose and operation of the tool. cursor in Text, handles and 
> > gradient line in Gradient[...]
> I would argue those extra details are simply that.  Inkscape is the only
> software I've seen that goes to that much detail for tools commonly seen in
> many other programs.  It's possible these details may confuse new users. 
> This was true for myself with the Gradient tool. It looks near identical to
> the rectangle tool but it has nodes - I couldn't guess what it did, and I've
> used lots of software with gradient tools.
> 
> 
> mnemonic colors of shape tools that correspond to their default colors in
> newly installed Inkscape
> That's why they are different colours!? :)
>

bulia byak wrote:
> On 10/24/07, jiho <jo.irisson@...> wrote:
>   
>> Add, as Elisa pointed out to me, there is a wiki page started about
>> this:
>>         http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/TangoifiedIcons
>>     
>
> I'm sorry to spoil the party but I really, really don't like the
> "proposed icon" column for tools. They:
>
> -  are too pale and too different in blackness/visual clout - some are
> barely visible on a LCD (star), some are much more visible, but
> overall they are much paler and drabber than our current set
>   
I actually agree with this.  Having looked at the Tango icons next to 
the original, I like the original better in many cases, especially for 
the bolder colors.
...and I'm partial to my paintbucket icon...
> - lack meaningful parallelism: it is not coincidental that pen,
> pencil, and calligraphic pen in our current set are all drawn at the
> same slant; in tango the pen is way too different in all aspects,
> breaking the consistency of drawing tools
>   
I was also wondering about this.  I think it looks better to have the 
same slant and I like the old pen style better.  The new pen style is 
kind of difficult to determine what it is, unless you know already.  In 
addition, the magnifying glasses aren't all consistent, which is a 
little odd.
> - lack coordination with our mouse cursors: in our current set, node
> tool uses this thin triangular black pointer depicted on its icon, and
> paintbucket cursor is also similar to the icon - this is not the case
> with proposed icons
>   
This can, of course, be easily remedied, can't it?
> - lack a lot of meaningful details that help Inkscape user understand
> the purpose and operation of the tool: cursor in Text, handles and
> gradient line in Gradient, both polygon and star in Star tool to
> suggest it can create both, mnemonic colors of shape tools that
> correspond to their default colors in newly installed Inkscape.
>   
Makes sense.
> I think that these problems outweigh the advantages if any, and I just
> don't see a convincing reason for the change.
I agree with most of what you said readily.  However, I think it's 
important to try to make a unified UI between common apps.

So I was also wondering, if these things can be remedied, are you 
against making an icon set change?  Are you just opposed to Tango's 
color scheme / style?

Besides, even if it's not made the default icon set, it's still nice to 
have as an alternative.

JF

>> - lack meaningful parallelism: it is not coincidental that pen,
>> pencil, and calligraphic pen in our current set are all drawn at the
>> same slant; in tango the pen is way too different in all aspects,
>> breaking the consistency of drawing tools
>>   
>>     
> I was also wondering about this.  I think it looks better to have the 
> same slant and I like the old pen style better.  The new pen style is 
> kind of difficult to determine what it is, unless you know already.  In 
> addition, the magnifying glasses aren't all consistent, which is a 
> little odd.

I just paid closer attention, I meant the Calligraphy pen is confusing 
in the proposed icons.

JF

Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
> bulia byak wrote:
>> On 10/24/07, jiho <jo.irisson@...> wrote:
>>   
>>> Add, as Elisa pointed out to me, there is a wiki page started about
>>> this:
>>>         http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/TangoifiedIcons
>>>     
>> I'm sorry to spoil the party but I really, really don't like the
>> "proposed icon" column for tools. They:
>>
>> -  are too pale and too different in blackness/visual clout - some are
>> barely visible on a LCD (star), some are much more visible, but
>> overall they are much paler and drabber than our current set
>>   
> I actually agree with this.  Having looked at the Tango icons next to 
> the original, I like the original better in many cases, especially for 
> the bolder colors.
> ...and I'm partial to my paintbucket icon...

Agreed. I personally like the current icons more than the proposed icons
if only for the reason that they catch your eyes. I also find that they
communicate what the tools do more effectively as well. bulia's examples
cover my issues.

>> - lack meaningful parallelism: it is not coincidental that pen,
>> pencil, and calligraphic pen in our current set are all drawn at the
>> same slant; in tango the pen is way too different in all aspects,
>> breaking the consistency of drawing tools
>>   
> I was also wondering about this.  I think it looks better to have the 
> same slant and I like the old pen style better.  The new pen style is 
> kind of difficult to determine what it is, unless you know already.  In 
> addition, the magnifying glasses aren't all consistent, which is a 
> little odd.

The new calligraphy icon is a step backwards to me. As for the
magnifying icons, not only are they not consistent (imho), they also
don't have enough contrast and aren't crisp enough by comparison to the
current ones.

>> - lack coordination with our mouse cursors: in our current set, node
>> tool uses this thin triangular black pointer depicted on its icon, and
>> paintbucket cursor is also similar to the icon - this is not the case
>> with proposed icons
>>   
> This can, of course, be easily remedied, can't it?

Easy remedy provided someone wants to spend the time doing it... and
maintaining things too. People tend to want to make changes and not
maintain them, which then means the other devs get pulled away from more
important issues. Honestly, I'd rather have bulia freed up to continue
doing innovative and interesting things in the UI, rather than him
having to fudge with icons and such.

>> - lack a lot of meaningful details that help Inkscape user understand
>> the purpose and operation of the tool: cursor in Text, handles and
>> gradient line in Gradient, both polygon and star in Star tool to
>> suggest it can create both, mnemonic colors of shape tools that
>> correspond to their default colors in newly installed Inkscape.
>>   
> Makes sense.

Nod.

>> I think that these problems outweigh the advantages if any, and I just
>> don't see a convincing reason for the change.
> I agree with most of what you said readily.  However, I think it's 
> important to try to make a unified UI between common apps.

This seems to be the most common argument. But I haven't seen anyone
address some major underlying issues here.

When the UI's are all inherently different to begin with, what good does
it do to make the icons match? All three mentioned apps (Inkscape, GIMP,
& Scribus) have different ideas of what their UI should be and what
makes for good usability.

If the tools are "kinda" the same between apps (as in the same in
principle, NOT usability), but represented by the same icon as it would
be in a suite, is this not more confusing to the end user? Sorry, but
the pen tool in inkscape and the pen tool in gimp are not really the
same when it comes to usability. I'm not saying that the base
functionality of tools themselves are completely different, but I'd
personally not want people to associate our pen tool with that of the
gimp (no offense, I'm just stating that they're quite different... and
inkscape's rocks ;)).

Additionally, Scribus uses QT which has a different "look and feel"
altogether than GTK, so there's only so much unification possible no
matter what. At that point it just comes across as a "cheap" attempt at
a suite.

> So I was also wondering, if these things can be remedied, are you 
> against making an icon set change?  Are you just opposed to Tango's 
> color scheme / style?
> 
> Besides, even if it's not made the default icon set, it's still nice to 
> have as an alternative.

I don't know if bulia would be against it or not. But even if these
things could be remedied, the last icon set change was not a notably
fantastic or smooth experience. It took a lot of feedback and tweaking
to get things to where they are. It was worth the pain in the end, but I
don't know that there will be enough flexibility on the tango side to
make it worth while for us.

Personally, I wouldn't be against including the tango theme icons in
addition to the standard and legacy sets. But I'd like to see a much
more complete set before I'd even really put in an "okay" vote for that.
In fact, I'd personally also like to see UI created to change icon sets
inside inkscape (rather than switching svgs) prior to including another
icons set.

-Josh

On 2007-October-30  , at 01:03 , Joshua A. Andler wrote:
> Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
>> bulia byak wrote:
>>> On 10/24/07, jiho <jo.irisson@...> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Add, as Elisa pointed out to me, there is a wiki page started about
>>>> this:
>>>>         http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/TangoifiedIcons
>>>>
>>> I'm sorry to spoil the party but I really, really don't like the
>>> "proposed icon" column for tools. They:
>>>
>>> -  are too pale and too different in blackness/visual clout -  
>>> some are
>>> barely visible on a LCD (star), some are much more visible, but
>>> overall they are much paler and drabber than our current set
>>>
>> I actually agree with this.  Having looked at the Tango icons next to
>> the original, I like the original better in many cases, especially  
>> for
>> the bolder colors.
>> ...and I'm partial to my paintbucket icon...
>
> Agreed. I personally like the current icons more than the proposed  
> icons
> if only for the reason that they catch your eyes. I also find that  
> they
> communicate what the tools do more effectively as well. bulia's  
> examples
> cover my issues.

The biggest default of the Tango icons (apparently) is that they are  
less contrasted than the current set... which some could view as a  
quality of being less disturbing but that's a whole other story ;)  
Anyway, contrast could be improved in the Tango ones. They need to be  
tweaked anyway to fit Inkscape's pixel size requirements so tweaking  
them a bit more should not be a problem in itself. As long as they  
maintain their Tango feel, the benefit of having Tango icons is still  
there and their flaws are corrected for Inkscape's use.

>>> - lack meaningful parallelism: it is not coincidental that pen,
>>> pencil, and calligraphic pen in our current set are all drawn at the
>>> same slant; in tango the pen is way too different in all aspects,
>>> breaking the consistency of drawing tools
>>>
>> I was also wondering about this.  I think it looks better to have the
>> same slant and I like the old pen style better.  The new pen style is
>> kind of difficult to determine what it is, unless you know  
>> already.  In
>> addition, the magnifying glasses aren't all consistent, which is a
>> little odd.
>
> The new calligraphy icon is a step backwards to me. As for the
> magnifying icons, not only are they not consistent (imho), they also
> don't have enough contrast and aren't crisp enough by comparison to  
> the
> current ones.

Tango's convention seems to be to represent only the tool and not  
what the result looks like, while Inkscape's current set shows both  
the line and the tool. Since these are tool's icons, Tango's concept  
seems justified. However it fails in the case of bezier paths where a  
path has to be represented to convey the tool's meaning correctly. So  
in the end it may be better to go with Inkscape's current convention  
and add a path to all these icons.

>>> [...]
>>> - lack a lot of meaningful details that help Inkscape user  
>>> understand
>>> the purpose and operation of the tool: cursor in Text, handles and
>>> gradient line in Gradient, both polygon and star in Star tool to
>>> suggest it can create both, mnemonic colors of shape tools that
>>> correspond to their default colors in newly installed Inkscape.
>>>
>> Makes sense.
>
> Nod.

Actually, I have always found the gradient handles in the gradient  
tool's icon to be confusing, especially with the connector tool's  
icon, given that it is just above. It changed color recently and this  
improved things a bit but I still prefer Tango's ones in this case. I  
personally find them easier to distinguish and cleaner.

>>> I think that these problems outweigh the advantages if any, and I  
>>> just
>>> don't see a convincing reason for the change.
>> I agree with most of what you said readily.  However, I think it's
>> important to try to make a unified UI between common apps.
>
> This seems to be the most common argument. But I haven't seen anyone
> address some major underlying issues here.

I think the unification of UI is not so much a matter of comparing  
Inskcape with Gimp and Scribus but rather Inkscape with the rest of  
GTK (and even QT) apps out there. Most of them are or will soon be  
using Tango icons, at least because of the mere fact that Gnome uses  
them so all stock icons will be Tangoified. So it is about having a  
entirely unified desktop rather than just a suite (and this would  
definitely matter to me... if I was using Linux ;))

The second argument about using Tango-like icons is that they are  
designed to look well in many environments:
- on both dark and light background
- in Gnome but also in Windows (XP at least) and OS X
The current set does not do very good on a dark background since most  
icons have a black outline which blends or disappears in the  
background. Bulia even proved this point himself in designing the new  
Tweak tool icon in a way that completely matches Tango recommendations.
The current set does not look very nice either on Windows or on OS X.

My last point is probably just a matter of taste (and I may well have  
bad taste ;)) but I find the Tango theme more pleasant visually than  
the current set. Even if I agree that the current set does its job  
well, I find it very flashy and cartoonesque with its bunch of colors  
and black outlines. Working with icons that are less catchy, more  
subtle in their colors and gradients, makes it easier to focus on the  
canvas, where the real stuff happens, than on the rest of the  
interface. As long as they are crisp and than their overall shape and  
position remains the same, I don't think this should badly handicap  
productivity for people already acquainted with current theme.

[...]
>
>> So I was also wondering, if these things can be remedied, are you
>> against making an icon set change?  Are you just opposed to Tango's
>> color scheme / style?
>>
>> Besides, even if it's not made the default icon set, it's still  
>> nice to
>> have as an alternative.
>
> I don't know if bulia would be against it or not. But even if these
> things could be remedied, the last icon set change was not a notably
> fantastic or smooth experience. It took a lot of feedback and tweaking
> to get things to where they are. It was worth the pain in the end,  
> but I
> don't know that there will be enough flexibility on the tango side to
> make it worth while for us.

All the thinking that has been put in the current theme should of  
course be retained in the next one, it is just a matter of making the  
icon look "Tango"... well for me at least.

> Personally, I wouldn't be against including the tango theme icons in
> addition to the standard and legacy sets. But I'd like to see a much
> more complete set before I'd even really put in an "okay" vote for  
> that.
> In fact, I'd personally also like to see UI created to change icon  
> sets
> inside inkscape (rather than switching svgs) prior to including  
> another
> icons set.

That would be nice indeed.

JiHO
---
http://jo.irisson.free.fr/

Joshua A. Andler wrote:
> The new calligraphy icon is a step backwards to me.
Is this because it is not familiar or because it doesn't portray the idea of
"calligraphy"?  I think a quill is quite suitable for calligraphy.


magnifying icons, not only are they not consistent (imho),
Those small icons were pulled from
http://gnomelook.org/content/show.php/Tangofied+inkscape+icons+set?content=48140. 
That set does not contains many icons that have been adopted by the Tango
project.  There is no reason why we could not create new versions of these.



>> - lack coordination with our mouse cursors: in our current set, node
>>> tool uses this thin triangular black pointer depicted on its icon, and
>>> paintbucket cursor is also similar to the icon - this is not the case
>>> with proposed icons
>>>   
>> This can, of course, be easily remedied, can't it?
> 
> Easy remedy provided someone wants to spend the time doing it... and 
> maintaining things too. People tend to want to make changes and not 
> maintain them, which then means the other devs get pulled away from more 
> important issues.

I expected the remedy would be to simply change the image.  I wouldn't know,
but I didn't think this would involve programming new features.


If the tools are "kinda" the same between apps (as in the same in
> principle, NOT usability), but represented by the same icon as it would
> be in a suite, is this not more confusing to the end user?

I think users will create a link between the tools despite not sharing
identical icons so useability issues are unavoidable.  Unless of course you
use completely different symbols and name them differently - then we'll have
some really good useability problems :)
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13480582
Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

On Oct 29, 2007, at 5:55 PM, jiho wrote:

> I think the unification of UI is not so much a matter of comparing
> Inskcape with Gimp and Scribus but rather Inkscape with the rest of
> GTK (and even QT) apps out there. Most of them are or will soon be
> using Tango icons, at least because of the mere fact that Gnome uses
> them so all stock icons will be Tangoified. So it is about having a
> entirely unified desktop rather than just a suite (and this would
> definitely matter to me... if I was using Linux ;))

I think here we hit the point where we need to hook in standard  
loading to get the icons, not create a whole new set that is a  
duplicate. Then we can get good icons, even when people use  
accessibility modes.

To restate, first we need to get effort into our icon loading code.  
That will pay off more.

On 10/29/07, Joshua A. Andler <joshua@...> wrote:
> Easy remedy provided someone wants to spend the time doing it... and
> maintaining things too. People tend to want to make changes and not
> maintain them, which then means the other devs get pulled away from more
> important issues.

Just wanted to add that replacing all of our icons is a huge amount of
work. It's been worked on for many years now. I don't think anything
comparable can be done in short time. I think outright replacement is
simply out of the question: right now you have too few icons anyway,
and if you wait until you have all of them in tango, by that time
Inkscape will add a lot more :) You're already missing the 3D box tool
icon, by the way, which I recently reworked and made much better.

> When the UI's are all inherently different to begin with, what good does
> it do to make the icons match? All three mentioned apps (Inkscape, GIMP,
> & Scribus) have different ideas of what their UI should be and what
> makes for good usability.

Agree 100%. Icon unification should be the last stage when the tools,
behaviors, modes etc are all made as similar as possible. Otherwise
it's just pretending, not real unification of anything. Not to mention
that the majority of our users are on Windows and couldn't care less
about "unification" with some apps on another platform.

> I don't know if bulia would be against it or not. But even if these
> things could be remedied, the last icon set change was not a notably
> fantastic or smooth experience. It took a lot of feedback and tweaking
> to get things to where they are. It was worth the pain in the end, but I
> don't know that there will be enough flexibility on the tango side to
> make it worth while for us.

Also agree. In short, I may consider gradual tangofication, but not
wholesale change. Both would waste (IMHO) a lot of our time, but in
the first case at least there's a hope it will actually improve things
overall  :)

Re drabness: please consider that Inkscape is a young upstart
application, so it's perfectly adequate for it to use bright,
memorable icons. This builds recognizability. And now, when it just
started to gain wide popularity, it would be the worst time IMHO to
change its appearance so drastically and not necessarily for the good.
Adobe Illustrator, in its position, may afford very not-in-your-face
icons; we may not yet. Besides, AI's icons are much more consistent
and eye-pleasing, even though (and maybe because) they are all
grayscale, no color at all. This makes a statement. Tango seems to me
like it wants to be too many things at once: it is pale but not
uniformly pale, and it's colored but not really making good use of the
color.

Take paintbucket for example: our icon is very obvious, descriptive,
and blends well with the rest. Tango's paintbucket is simply hard to
understand - doesn't look very much like a bucket, and what is that
blue thing? Especially considering that people don't normally expect
to see a paintbucket tool in a vector app.

In short, I'm open to critique of some aspects of our current icons,
and for some that I don't care much about I would consider replacing
them with tango, but the main toolbar is the face of the program, and
I think I like it much better as it is now than what is proposed.

-- 
bulia byak
Inkscape. Draw Freely.
http://www.inkscape.org

On 10/29/07, jiho <jo.irisson@...> wrote:
> The biggest default of the Tango icons (apparently) is that they are
> less contrasted than the current set... which some could view as a
> quality of being less disturbing but that's a whole other story ;)
> Anyway, contrast could be improved in the Tango ones. They need to be
> tweaked anyway to fit Inkscape's pixel size requirements so tweaking
> them a bit more should not be a problem in itself.

Any tweaking is work. A lot of work. With 750+ unclosed bugs, I really
think we have more important things to do right now than improving
some proposed poor icon set when our current one is already better.

> Actually, I have always found the gradient handles in the gradient
> tool's icon to be confusing, especially with the connector tool's
> icon, given that it is just above.

Yes, with this I agree. I would consider a redesign of our Gradient
icon. But using the Tango one will make it too similar with the
Rectangle. Maybe just rotating the gradient line horizontal will
remove its clash with the Connector icon.

> I think the unification of UI is not so much a matter of comparing
> Inskcape with Gimp and Scribus but rather Inkscape with the rest of
> GTK (and even QT) apps out there.

The more apps you compare, the less meaningful is the comparison. We
have a number of tools that are similar with Gimp, less so with
Scribus, and still less for other apps. In the end, it's just the
standard Save and Open icons that are truly common to all apps;
everything else is very different in purpose and scope.

> The second argument about using Tango-like icons is that they are
> designed to look well in many environments:
> - on both dark and light background
> - in Gnome but also in Windows (XP at least) and OS X
> The current set does not do very good on a dark background since most
> icons have a black outline which blends or disappears in the
> background. Bulia even proved this point himself in designing the new
> Tweak tool icon in a way that completely matches Tango recommendations.

Actually, this icon first of all matches most other icons on the
toolbar - they too have both black and white outlines.  And by the
way, I was just planning to tweak this icon some more (pun intended) -
it's currently not very crisp and lacks expression.

> My last point is probably just a matter of taste (and I may well have
> bad taste ;)) but I find the Tango theme more pleasant visually than
> the current set. Even if I agree that the current set does its job
> well, I find it very flashy and cartoonesque with its bunch of colors
> and black outlines. Working with icons that are less catchy, more
> subtle in their colors and gradients, makes it easier to focus on the
> canvas, where the real stuff happens, than on the rest of the
> interface.

I agree, but Tango does not achieve this goal IMHO. It's too half-way,
too inconsistent in itself, too clunky and plain boring. Instead, what
I always dreamed of (maybe one day when I don't have anything better
to do in Inkscape...) is an alternative set with purely B/W icons. Not
even grayscale, but B/W, with everything expressed via pure shape and
outline. If well done, it can look very stylish and unique. But Tango
seems to me like a watered-down milk: why drink that if you can have
pure milk or pure water instead?

-- 
bulia byak
Inkscape. Draw Freely.
http://www.inkscape.org

bulia byak wrote:
> Yes, with this I agree. I would consider a redesign of our Gradient
> icon. But using the Tango one will make it too similar with the
> Rectangle. Maybe just rotating the gradient line horizontal will
> remove its clash with the Connector icon.
Does this icon have a mnemonic color specified for it, since it doesn't
really have a default color?

JF

This discussion doesn't seem to be going well for the Tango icons. This 
seems like a great shame to me because I strongly prefer them. I think they 
with the HIG, are the best thing to happen to the free desktop for a long 
time - I mean the quite seriously.

- I think they look slicker - more highly designed.
- The colours look more vibrant - I can't stand the "pastel shades" of the 
present set, they look washed out and anemic to me.
- The Tango Icons look a lot better for Windows users, and I'd argue better 
as well for Ubuntu-default-install users, because the icons look very much 
more in keeping with the parent desktop.
- Also, am I right in thinking that the GTK guys are moving their library 
over to Tango for New, Save, Print etc. in the near future? I hope so, 
because the present ones look terrible in the Windows version - but funnily 
enough they look consistent with the rest of the Inkscape set. So as we 
upgrade GTK, parts of Inkscape will become more Tango-ey (IMHO better 
looking) while other parts will retain the same old look - rather the way 
Windows 95 did when all those 16-bit apps became obselete.
- For me attention to detail REALLY matters. I believe it's worth spending 
time to get the little things right. But also, these icons are not such a 
tiny detail, because for many users they are thing that carry the feel of 
the app to a first time user. Even for long time users, a good working 
environment can make the user feel subtly happier about their work as they 
do it.
- GIMP-Win's makover is a radical improvement for me. I couldn't stand to 
use it before; it was so ugly in Windows. Now I quite like to use it - wierd 
window structure asside.
- Giving Inkscape a face lift will propel it further forward when 0.46 comes 
out, because people can immediately see new things from the very first 
glance. This creates more buzz, which means more users, which means more 
developers, which means better Inkscape.

So all in all I really think it's worth one our 106 developers taking some 
time on this.

Joel

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art" <faceman@...>
To: "inkscape-devel List" <inkscape-devel@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 4:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Tango Icons


> bulia byak wrote:
>> Yes, with this I agree. I would consider a redesign of our Gradient
>> icon. But using the Tango one will make it too similar with the
>> Rectangle. Maybe just rotating the gradient line horizontal will
>> remove its clash with the Connector icon.
> Does this icon have a mnemonic color specified for it, since it doesn't
> really have a default color?
>
> JF
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>

On Mon, 29 Oct 2007 23:17:46 -0000, Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art  
<faceman@...> wrote:
> I agree with most of what you said readily.  However, I think it's
> important to try to make a unified UI between common apps.

I agree with most of what he said but don't think it's important to make a  
unified visual UI between common apps.

The Tango icons fall into two classes, from the PoV of Inkscape: those  
that are worse than the current ones (zoom icons, caligraphy, gradient),  
and those that are almost identical to the current ones. As such, I don't  
see much reason to bother with them.

> Besides, even if it's not made the default icon set, it's still nice to
> have as an alternative.

I guess so; it just seems a wasted effort. But then, it's not my effort!

TW

On 10/30/07, Thomas Worthington wrote:

> > Besides, even if it's not made the default icon set, it's still nice to
> > have as an alternative.
>
> I guess so; it just seems a wasted effort. But then, it's not my effort!

Well, having a Tango styled icon set is already a good thing for those
who also use Scribus, GIMP 2.4, PDFedit and Synfig. I don't see this
as a wasted effort as long as the person who wants to work on it has
no other things to do and is ready to maintain it.

Besides having all icons from original icons set is not neccesary at
all. Having icons for almost every action in menu is not so great,
unless you want them all in orwellistic "Undo history" palette ;-)

Alexandre

Just quick notes because this is getting lengthy (and we'd better get  
the stuff done ;) ).

On 2007-October-30  , at 04:28 , bulia byak wrote:
> On 10/29/07, jiho <jo.irisson@...> wrote:
>> The biggest default of the Tango icons (apparently) is that they are
>> less contrasted than the current set... which some could view as a
>> quality of being less disturbing but that's a whole other story ;)
>> Anyway, contrast could be improved in the Tango ones. They need to be
>> tweaked anyway to fit Inkscape's pixel size requirements so tweaking
>> them a bit more should not be a problem in itself.
>
> Any tweaking is work. A lot of work. With 750+ unclosed bugs, I really
> think we have more important things to do right now than improving
> some proposed poor icon set when our current one is already better.

I completely agree with that but I just think that closing bugs and  
improving icons (or documentation, or translations etc.) simply does  
not involve the same persons. People with no programming skills can  
help there and it won't drain manpower away from bug closing. On the  
contrary, I even think it can get people involved in the project and  
maybe, in time, turn them into bug squashers.

>> I think the unification of UI is not so much a matter of comparing
>> Inskcape with Gimp and Scribus but rather Inkscape with the rest of
>> GTK (and even QT) apps out there.
>
> The more apps you compare, the less meaningful is the comparison. We
> have a number of tools that are similar with Gimp, less so with
> Scribus, and still less for other apps. In the end, it's just the
> standard Save and Open icons that are truly common to all apps;
> everything else is very different in purpose and scope.

Once again, I am not necessarily advocating using the exact same  
icons (except for Open, Save and such indeed) but rather draw icons  
that visually fit Tango ones. Tango icons of the ArtLibre set have  
the merit of being there already and can be used as a base but the  
overall goal is really purely visual: to have Inkscape blend in  
nicely, particularly on Linux but also on other systems.
It may seem futile but if there are enough people willing to put time  
in it, why not? And of course I don't personally think it is as  
futile as it may seem. Having a unified, consistent UI is, in part,  
what differentiates a "desktop" from a bunch of unrelated  
applications, each running in its own direction. It is what make me  
like OS X. It is what I would like to see on Linux. Of course the  
point of a Desktop is to have apps interacting nicely and behaving  
the same way, not just "look" the same. The look can appear to be  
secondary but once again, it just does not involve the same people.  
So if some can make the look consistent while other tackle the more  
profound behavioral part (verse plugins etc.), that's all benefit  
isn't it?

>> My last point is probably just a matter of taste (and I may well have
>> bad taste ;)) but I find the Tango theme more pleasant visually than
>> the current set. Even if I agree that the current set does its job
>> well, I find it very flashy and cartoonesque with its bunch of colors
>> and black outlines. Working with icons that are less catchy, more
>> subtle in their colors and gradients, makes it easier to focus on the
>> canvas, where the real stuff happens, than on the rest of the
>> interface.
>
> I agree, but Tango does not achieve this goal IMHO. It's too half-way,
> too inconsistent in itself, too clunky and plain boring. Instead, what
> I always dreamed of (maybe one day when I don't have anything better
> to do in Inkscape...) is an alternative set with purely B/W icons. Not
> even grayscale, but B/W, with everything expressed via pure shape and
> outline. If well done, it can look very stylish and unique. But Tango
> seems to me like a watered-down milk: why drink that if you can have
> pure milk or pure water instead?

Nice analogy. Well, it is really a matter of taste. I actually know  
people who prefer watery, cream-free milk ;). I personally quite like  
Tango icons. I would also love a pure black and white or subtle gray  
theme. Tango goes the pastel way. It is a sensible choice to keep  
color for most apps and it is already an improvement over flashy  
colors with no predefined palette. Improvement is a step-by-step  
process.

JiHO
---
http://jo.irisson.free.fr/

On 10/30/07, Joel Holdsworth <joel@...> wrote:
> - I think they look slicker - more highly designed.
> - The colours look more vibrant - I can't stand the "pastel shades" of the
> present set, they look washed out and anemic to me.

Well... let me just say I disagree :)

> - The Tango Icons look a lot better for Windows users, and I'd argue better
> as well for Ubuntu-default-install users, because the icons look very much
> more in keeping with the parent desktop.

More in keeping with Windows? In what way? Windows users are very much
used to non-unified interfaces. Take Winamp - it breaks each and every
rule of windows UI and yet is very popular. Take Photoshop/AI - they
have their own widgets, and their icons are very much NOT in keeping
with anything if only because they are pure grayscale. I'd even
venture to say that on Windows, an application that uses too many
system-provided icons tends to look amateurish and hastily done. The
big names have their own unique sets.

I agree of course that we should use platform-specific Save and Open.
That just makes sense. But now we're discussing the main toolbar.
AFAIK there's no Windows-wide standard for the Pen tool icon. Why
should Pen strive to be similar to Save? They are absolutely different
things, they will never be on the same toolbar even.

> - For me attention to detail REALLY matters. I believe it's worth spending
> time to get the little things right. But also, these icons are not such a
> tiny detail, because for many users they are thing that carry the feel of
> the app to a first time user. Even for long time users, a good working
> environment can make the user feel subtly happier about their work as they
> do it.

I agree, and this is exactly why our current set is better :) A lot of
work went into small meaningful details of the current icons. The
proposed tango set looks very hastily compiled by comparison - which
it is, because instead of carefully designing icons for specific tools
you just compiled some existing ones that are "generally similar".

-- 
bulia byak
Inkscape. Draw Freely.
http://www.inkscape.org

microUgly wrote:
> 
> Joshua A. Andler wrote:
>> The new calligraphy icon is a step backwards to me.
> Is this because it is not familiar or because it doesn't portray the idea of
> "calligraphy"?  I think a quill is quite suitable for calligraphy.

It has nothing to do with being familiar, it's more of the not
portraying the idea of calligraphy. It actually looks a bit like the
"white out" tape dispensers (which for the record are way better than
the liquid). Also, when I had done calligraphy in my art classes, I had
never seen a calligraphy pen (or anything with a nib) that looks
anything like that.

>> Easy remedy provided someone wants to spend the time doing it... and 
>> maintaining things too. People tend to want to make changes and not 
>> maintain them, which then means the other devs get pulled away from more 
>> important issues.
> 
> I expected the remedy would be to simply change the image.  I wouldn't know,
> but I didn't think this would involve programming new features.

Well, the remedy is effectively simply changing the image. However,
that's not so simple for things to look right. Especially because it
seems like with icons, people don't tend to react well to feedback that
is requesting changes.

Also, you are correct, this doesn't involve programming new features...
However, the concern is that our dedicated programmers will be end up
having to mess with non-programming related tasks (which is a waste of
resources when it's not really their choice). The icons are sort of like
maintaining the website, community building, documentation, PR work,
helping users, etc... these are all areas that the programmers shouldn't
have to worry about. It's not to say they don't occasionally enjoy such
things... but it's good if it could be more optional for them (which
everyone benefits from).

-Josh

Joshua A. Andler wrote:
> It has nothing to do with being familiar, it's more of the not
> portraying the idea of calligraphy.
What are the little things sticking out from the sides, I've been 
wondering...I like the nub in of the current icon, looks more realistic 
and recognizable.
>  It actually looks a bit like the
> "white out" tape dispensers (which for the record are way better than
> the liquid).
Depends on the use :)

JF

On 10/30/07, jiho <jo.irisson@...> wrote:
> Once again, I am not necessarily advocating using the exact same
> icons (except for Open, Save and such indeed) but rather draw icons
> that visually fit Tango ones.

OK, with this I agree. But right now the tango tool icons are not
drawn anew, they are just picked from what's available. If someone
wants to draw a new set of tool icons (to start with), preserving all
of the carefully worked out details of the current icons and keeping
as similar to them as possible, but adhering to the tango style
(whatever it is), I will be happy to consider this replacement.

> Nice analogy. Well, it is really a matter of taste. I actually know
> people who prefer watery, cream-free milk ;).

Yeah, but I for one wouldn't stake the future of my upstart foodstuff
company on such a product :)

-- 
bulia byak
Inkscape. Draw Freely.
http://www.inkscape.org

Joel Holdsworth wrote:
> This discussion doesn't seem to be going well for the Tango icons. This 
> seems like a great shame to me because I strongly prefer them. I think they 
> with the HIG, are the best thing to happen to the free desktop for a long 
> time - I mean the quite seriously.

Things aren't NOT going well for the Tango icons... you're just not
seeing the overwhelming support you hoped for. To a few of us, the
proposed tango icons are insufficient (and fairly incomplete) in their
current incarnation. No one said "NO! NEVER!!". :)

Also, all HIGs have drawbacks... there is no silver bullet. After all,
the Gnome guys think that the screensavers should no longer have
options/be configurable... because it might confuse users.

A huge part of this is that this whole thing is very opinion and
preference driven. It doesn't seem like it's being taken into
consideration that all of the icons in inkscape need to be consistent,
not only the tool icons (and those are really all I'm seeing at this point).

> - I think they look slicker - more highly designed.

And I think the current set is slicker and more highly designed... in
fact it was specifically designed for inkscape from the ground up.

> - The colours look more vibrant - I can't stand the "pastel shades" of the 
> present set, they look washed out and anemic to me.

Are we looking at the same icons? Given that all the shape tools of the
tango set lack color, this view seems backwards to me. The Tango icons
are pretty bland and boring imho.

> - The Tango Icons look a lot better for Windows users, and I'd argue better 
> as well for Ubuntu-default-install users, because the icons look very much 
> more in keeping with the parent desktop.

One of the first things I do on a fresh Ubuntu install is change the
icons and theme. It's pretty plain and boring by default. Additionally,
no userbase takes precedence... just because it's better for the Windows
folk doesn't mean the rest of us should have to suffer through it. ;)

> - Also, am I right in thinking that the GTK guys are moving their library 
> over to Tango for New, Save, Print etc. in the near future? I hope so, 
> because the present ones look terrible in the Windows version - but funnily 
> enough they look consistent with the rest of the Inkscape set. So as we 
> upgrade GTK, parts of Inkscape will become more Tango-ey (IMHO better 
> looking) while other parts will retain the same old look - rather the way 
> Windows 95 did when all those 16-bit apps became obselete.

Using platform specific New, Open, Save, etc is the way this is handled.
Again, so no setup takes precedence over the others.

> - For me attention to detail REALLY matters. I believe it's worth spending 
> time to get the little things right. But also, these icons are not such a 
> tiny detail, because for many users they are thing that carry the feel of 
> the app to a first time user. Even for long time users, a good working 
> environment can make the user feel subtly happier about their work as they 
> do it.

I'm pretty sure attention to detail really matters to all of us that
have participated in this conversation. A key thing I haven't seen
though is people offering said time to not only get the changes made,
but to spend a lot of additional time getting things right (for
inkscape). I see people saying they want the change, but I haven't seen
people offering their time (and additional tweak time) to get things to
a place that everyone will be happy with. As I've stated, I'll
personally be frustrated to see it affecting programmers time (unless
they choose)... and in the past that's exactly what happened.

> - GIMP-Win's makover is a radical improvement for me. I couldn't stand to 
> use it before; it was so ugly in Windows. Now I quite like to use it - wierd 
> window structure asside.

Wait. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me that you didn't (or couldn't
stand to) use an app that got the job done... because of the icons?!?!

> - Giving Inkscape a face lift will propel it further forward when 0.46 comes 
> out, because people can immediately see new things from the very first 
> glance. This creates more buzz, which means more users, which means more 
> developers, which means better Inkscape.

If people REALLY want to see inkscape get a face lift for 0.46 (which a
number of us don't feel this is necessary), they'd better get crackin'.
No offense, but, less talk about it and more action. Given that I don't
like the Tango icons in the least... I for one won't be participating.

> So all in all I really think it's worth one our 106 developers taking some 
> time on this.

Some of those people are translators, many inactive for a few years,
etc. Either way, as Inkscape development has always gone... people work
on what they want to. If someone is really interested, they'll work on it.

-Josh

Joshua A. Andler wrote:
> 
> I see people saying they want the change, but I haven't seen
> people offering their time (and additional tweak time) to get things to
> a place that everyone will be happy with.
> 

I was offering my time, but am hesitant to now.  If the Inkscape doesn't
like Jimmac's work then there's not much hope that anything I produce will
ever be accepted :)
-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13502529
Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

On Oct 30, 2007, at 10:55 PM, microUgly wrote:

> I was offering my time, but am hesitant to now.  If the Inkscape  
> doesn't
> like Jimmac's work then there's not much hope that anything I  
> produce will
> ever be accepted :)

Some do. Some don't.

However... there are ways to do thing such that both can be  
served.   :-)

One step is to get the names corrected. That is, have same names for  
the same things, but different names for icons that represent  
different things but that just happen to look the same.

bulia byak wrote:
> 
> I agree, and this is exactly why our current set is better :) A lot of
> work went into small meaningful details of the current icons.

I think this is the core of the differing opinion here.  You feel the icon
will not fulfill it's purpose if it doesn't contain details.  I feel the
icon will function perfectly well without the details.  It's only purpose is
to create a visual association and the currently proposed icons from the
GIMP set do that suitably.

I think the idea that using the already existing tango icons will cause mass
confusion is quite silly.  You can debate that the current Paint Bucket is
superior than the GIMP Paint Bucket, but at the end of the day  it's still a
paint bucket - people will get it.

Having said that, I don't think opinions will change.  So I'm happy to step
away from tangification.

-- 
View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13502823
Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

On 10/31/07, microUgly <drworm@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> Joshua A. Andler wrote:
> >
> > I see people saying they want the change, but I haven't seen
> > people offering their time (and additional tweak time) to get things to
> > a place that everyone will be happy with.
> >
>
> I was offering my time, but am hesitant to now.  If the Inkscape doesn't
> like Jimmac's work then there's not much hope that anything I produce will
> ever be accepted :)


I really wouldn't worry to much, it's pretty much always commit first
ask questions later here.
Some how this time it seem reversed, and the work isn't even close to
being done.
I think the going trend right now is the the set we have could be
updated to be tango styled.
I wouldn't give up just work on make things better.

Joshua L. Blocher
verbalshadow

> --
> View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/Tango-Icons-tf4320411.html#a13502529
> Sent from the Inkscape - Dev mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 06:13:37 -0000, microUgly <drworm@...> wrote:

>
>
> bulia byak wrote:
>>
>> I agree, and this is exactly why our current set is better :) A lot of
>> work went into small meaningful details of the current icons.
>
> I think this is the core of the differing opinion here.  You feel the  
> icon will not fulfill it's purpose if it doesn't contain details.

Actually, the operative word in Bulia's text was "meaningful". The Tango  
icons for magnification contain details but they are so small and badly  
done as to be meaningless. The stray feathers on the caligraphy icon are  
certainly details but they are confusing and make the icon rather baffling  
at first glance. The lack of detail in the gradient icon makes it unclear  
what is represented.

> It's only purpose is
> to create a visual association and the currently proposed icons from the
> GIMP set do that suitably.

Icons for functions which are frequently used may, as you say, simply have  
to make an association but that is certainly not their only purpose. Those  
which represent functions which are rarely used MUST also have a mnemonic  
aspect, and since we don't know which functions are rarely used by each  
user all icons must be treated as such. Additionally, a set of icons which  
represent associated functions (like the magnification icons) MUST clearly  
differentiate those functions.

The proposed icons seem, to me at least, to fail in these latter two  
requirements quite blatantly and are therfore most UNsuitable.

TW

> One of the first things I do on a fresh Ubuntu install is change the
> icons and theme. It's pretty plain and boring by default. Additionally,
> no userbase takes precedence... just because it's better for the Windows
> folk doesn't mean the rest of us should have to suffer through it. ;)

I agree, but the point of the Tango style is to try and make applications 
look ok with all platforms Mac OSX, Windows, Gnome, KDE etc. So in that 
sense, Tango is supposed to be good news for everyone. In the old days GTK 
apps used to try to look at Gnomeish as possible - so as they looked better 
in Gnome, they looked worse in Windows. But the ambition for Tango is that 
apps will look good for everyone!

> I see people saying they want the change, but I haven't seen
> people offering their time (and additional tweak time) to get things to
> a place that everyone will be happy with. As I've stated, I'll
> personally be frustrated to see it affecting programmers time (unless
> they choose)... and in the past that's exactly what happened.

Well I'm tied up right now on native dialogs for Windows, which surprisingly 
is VERY hard - but worth it. Next I need to fix a big problem with the 
Windows print dialog. I'm actually on a mission to bring Inkscape for 
Windows up to standard of Inkscape for Linux. So I actually am willing to 
get involved in the Tango effort if I can.

> Wait. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me that you didn't (or couldn't
> stand to) use an app that got the job done... because of the icons?!?!

I know it sounds a bit silly of me - but I am accutely sesitive to UI which 
is not quite "right". GIMP used to have a lot of things slightly wrong with 
it - not using the system cursors, themes, icons etc., and it's still not 
perfect, but it is better. Inkscape 0.45 has similar problems, but a lot of 
these issues have gone away due to upstream fixes in GTK, which is great 
news.

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joshua A. Andler" <joshua@...>
To: "Joel Holdsworth" <joel@...>
Cc: <inkscape-devel@...>
Sent: Tuesday, October 30, 2007 6:28 PM
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Tango Icons


> Joel Holdsworth wrote:
>> This discussion doesn't seem to be going well for the Tango icons. This
>> seems like a great shame to me because I strongly prefer them. I think 
>> they
>> with the HIG, are the best thing to happen to the free desktop for a long
>> time - I mean the quite seriously.
>
> Things aren't NOT going well for the Tango icons... you're just not
> seeing the overwhelming support you hoped for. To a few of us, the
> proposed tango icons are insufficient (and fairly incomplete) in their
> current incarnation. No one said "NO! NEVER!!". :)
>
> Also, all HIGs have drawbacks... there is no silver bullet. After all,
> the Gnome guys think that the screensavers should no longer have
> options/be configurable... because it might confuse users.
>
> A huge part of this is that this whole thing is very opinion and
> preference driven. It doesn't seem like it's being taken into
> consideration that all of the icons in inkscape need to be consistent,
> not only the tool icons (and those are really all I'm seeing at this 
> point).
>
>> - I think they look slicker - more highly designed.
>
> And I think the current set is slicker and more highly designed... in
> fact it was specifically designed for inkscape from the ground up.
>
>> - The colours look more vibrant - I can't stand the "pastel shades" of 
>> the
>> present set, they look washed out and anemic to me.
>
> Are we looking at the same icons? Given that all the shape tools of the
> tango set lack color, this view seems backwards to me. The Tango icons
> are pretty bland and boring imho.
>
>> - The Tango Icons look a lot better for Windows users, and I'd argue 
>> better
>> as well for Ubuntu-default-install users, because the icons look very 
>> much
>> more in keeping with the parent desktop.
>
> One of the first things I do on a fresh Ubuntu install is change the
> icons and theme. It's pretty plain and boring by default. Additionally,
> no userbase takes precedence... just because it's better for the Windows
> folk doesn't mean the rest of us should have to suffer through it. ;)
>
>> - Also, am I right in thinking that the GTK guys are moving their library
>> over to Tango for New, Save, Print etc. in the near future? I hope so,
>> because the present ones look terrible in the Windows version - but 
>> funnily
>> enough they look consistent with the rest of the Inkscape set. So as we
>> upgrade GTK, parts of Inkscape will become more Tango-ey (IMHO better
>> looking) while other parts will retain the same old look - rather the way
>> Windows 95 did when all those 16-bit apps became obselete.
>
> Using platform specific New, Open, Save, etc is the way this is handled.
> Again, so no setup takes precedence over the others.
>
>> - For me attention to detail REALLY matters. I believe it's worth 
>> spending
>> time to get the little things right. But also, these icons are not such a
>> tiny detail, because for many users they are thing that carry the feel of
>> the app to a first time user. Even for long time users, a good working
>> environment can make the user feel subtly happier about their work as 
>> they
>> do it.
>
> I'm pretty sure attention to detail really matters to all of us that
> have participated in this conversation. A key thing I haven't seen
> though is people offering said time to not only get the changes made,
> but to spend a lot of additional time getting things right (for
> inkscape). I see people saying they want the change, but I haven't seen
> people offering their time (and additional tweak time) to get things to
> a place that everyone will be happy with. As I've stated, I'll
> personally be frustrated to see it affecting programmers time (unless
> they choose)... and in the past that's exactly what happened.
>
>> - GIMP-Win's makover is a radical improvement for me. I couldn't stand to
>> use it before; it was so ugly in Windows. Now I quite like to use it - 
>> wierd
>> window structure asside.
>
> Wait. Are you SERIOUSLY trying to tell me that you didn't (or couldn't
> stand to) use an app that got the job done... because of the icons?!?!
>
>> - Giving Inkscape a face lift will propel it further forward when 0.46 
>> comes
>> out, because people can immediately see new things from the very first
>> glance. This creates more buzz, which means more users, which means more
>> developers, which means better Inkscape.
>
> If people REALLY want to see inkscape get a face lift for 0.46 (which a
> number of us don't feel this is necessary), they'd better get crackin'.
> No offense, but, less talk about it and more action. Given that I don't
> like the Tango icons in the least... I for one won't be participating.
>
>> So all in all I really think it's worth one our 106 developers taking 
>> some
>> time on this.
>
> Some of those people are translators, many inactive for a few years,
> etc. Either way, as Inkscape development has always gone... people work
> on what they want to. If someone is really interested, they'll work on it.
>
> -Josh
>

microUgly wrote:
>
> Joshua A. Andler wrote:
>   
>> I see people saying they want the change, but I haven't seen
>> people offering their time (and additional tweak time) to get things to
>> a place that everyone will be happy with.
>>
>>     
>
> I was offering my time, but am hesitant to now.  If the Inkscape doesn't
> like Jimmac's work then there's not much hope that anything I produce will
> ever be accepted :)
>   
I was interested in working on this as well, but I guess this could be a 
potential more long-term thing (with Jon's working theming etc.). Good 
that I can focus on firefox3 for now. :)
- Andreas

I've just noticed that the last several news stories reveal a problem 
with layout of the news in FF2.

If you're screen is wide enough (you can make it so by moving it mostly 
off to the left, then extending it to the right more :), the left 
alignment of the screenshots "sucks in" the proceeding article, so it's 
like a tiered news effect.  Maybe this is interesting for some people, 
but I don't think it's the intended layout.

I tried adapting the css news.item h3 css to include "clear: both" and 
the image tags to include 'class="left"', but it didn't fix the problem 
(and actually made the whole news section clear the menu, which is 
apparently floated as well).

Is there an easy way to fix this?

Furthermore, I noticed that the <img> tags contain a lot of html 
formatting, which kind of defeats the purpose of having a css layout, 
doesn't it?  That may actually be the cause of the problem, but I didn't 
really check on it.

JF

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:54:50 -0500, Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art
<faceman@...> wrote:
> Is there an easy way to fix this?

To work around a CSS clear being affected by the left-hand nav, I typically
use the positioniseverything clearfix trick for blocks like this:

http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html

with the <div class="news"> blocks becoming <div class="clearfix news

jcoswell@... wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:54:50 -0500, Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art
> <faceman@...> wrote:
>   
>> Is there an easy way to fix this?
>>     
>
> To work around a CSS clear being affected by the left-hand nav, I typically
> use the positioniseverything clearfix trick for blocks like this:
>
> http://www.positioniseverything.net/easyclearing.html
>
> with the <div class="news"> blocks becoming <div class="clearfix news
>
>   
DUDE!  I just found that fix and implemented it before I got your email!

I think it works okay - should I just commit to svn, or should I send 
the changes to someone for review?

JF

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:17:26 -0500, Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art
<faceman@...> wrote:
> I think it works okay - should I just commit to svn, or should I send
> the changes to someone for review?

If all you're doing is adding class="clearfix" to the news item <div>s, and
the .clearfix definitions in base.css, then I think it should be OK. 
Commit it & let me know, and I'll pull down the latest version and make
sure it works OK.

John

jcoswell@... wrote:
> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 14:17:26 -0500, Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art
> <faceman@...> wrote:
>   
>> I think it works okay - should I just commit to svn, or should I send
>> the changes to someone for review?
>>     
>
> If all you're doing is adding class="clearfix" to the news item <div>s, and
> the .clearfix definitions in base.css, then I think it should be OK. 
> Commit it & let me know, and I'll pull down the latest version and make
> sure it works OK.
>
> John
>
>   
Actually, it doesn't appear to fix the problem - just move it a little 
down the page.

The only way to get the clear to not clear the navbar float is to float 
an element that encloses it.  But every element I've tried it on didn't 
work.

I'm going to have to give this up for now - I won't be around till next 
week.  Please feel free to fix it, if you know how better than I.

JF

Joshua Blocher <verbalshadow@...> writes:

> 
> On 10/31/07, microUgly <drworm@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > Joshua A. Andler wrote:
> > >
> > > I see people saying they want the change, but I haven't seen
> > > people offering their time (and additional tweak time) to get things to
> > > a place that everyone will be happy with.

Is there a need for artists to work on this? I'm willing to contribute my time
(For people who don't remember, I contributed the traced Lamborghini Gallardo
for the 0.45 screenshots). If there's a need, Who do I contact about this?

Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
> jcoswell@... wrote:
>> If all you're doing is adding class="clearfix" to the news item 
>> <div>s, and
>> the .clearfix definitions in base.css, then I think it should be OK. 
>> Commit it & let me know, and I'll pull down the latest version and make
>> sure it works OK.
>>   
> The only way to get the clear to not clear the navbar float is to 
> float an element that encloses it.  But every element I've tried it on 
> didn't work.
>
Oh, I see what's going on now...the menu <div>'s floating, and the 
content <div>'s not.  The content <div> needs to be floating too for 
this to work.  If I have a moment today, I'll poke at it and see what I 
can do with it.

John

sorry this was meant to be sent on the list.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: jiho <jo.irisson@...>
Date: Nov 1, 2007 12:19 PM
Subject: Re: [Inkscape-devel] Fwd: Tango Icons
To: Michael Grosberg <preacher_public@...>


On 11/1/07, Michael Grosberg <preacher_public@...> wrote:
> Joshua Blocher <verbalshadow@...> writes:
> > On 10/31/07, microUgly <drworm@...> wrote:
> > > Joshua A. Andler wrote:
> > > > I see people saying they want the change, but I haven't seen
> > > > people offering their time (and additional tweak time) to get things to
> > > > a place that everyone will be happy with.
>
> Is there a need for artists to work on this? I'm willing to contribute my time
> (For people who don't remember, I contributed the traced Lamborghini Gallardo
> for the 0.45 screenshots). If there's a need, Who do I contact about this?

Yes, to make this discussion actually productive, there is a need for
artists (and if you can make the icons as good as the gallardo, this
is promissing!). The concensus seems to be around redrawing current
icons in Tango style, keeping as much of the current design as
possible and trying not to be too far from the Tango ArtLibre set at
the same time. Doing that correctly is challenging but what's life
without challenge ;)

Concretely:
- I first need to add a tango-icons.svg file to the SVN repository so
that people can work on the same file, possibly at the same time. I
will include old icons, and the ArtLibre set in the file so that
everything is at hand to design the new ones. When we are finished, we
will only keep the new ones.
- People willing to contribute should familiarize themselves with the
Tango icon style guidelines
  http://tango.freedesktop.org/Tango_Icon_Theme_Guidelines
and get a feeling of what the result can be by looking at the ArtLibre set:
   http://tango.freedesktop.org/ArtLibreSet
- The wiki page should be updated with the icons while we design them
   http://wiki.inkscape.org/wiki/index.php/TangoifiedIcons
to get a feeling of where we are heading.

I'll try to commit this today or tomorrow and then people can start
drawing. Given that some icons are likely to be re-drawn several time
to satisfy everyone, I think we should draw them quickly without too
much detail and refine them afterwards rather than try to nail every
detail in one shot.

As for the more code-related stuff, as Jon said icons names should be
changed to meet the Tango icon naming guidelines and icon loading code
may beed to be made more generic but I see this as quite orthogonal to
icon design ATM, so both projects can be donce independently for now.

Ok let's get started.
--
JiHO
http://jo.irisson.free.fr

John Bintz wrote:
> Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
>> jcoswell@... wrote:
>>> If all you're doing is adding class="clearfix" to the news item 
>>> <div>s, and
>>> the .clearfix definitions in base.css, then I think it should be OK. 
>>> Commit it & let me know, and I'll pull down the latest version and make
>>> sure it works OK.
>>>   
>> The only way to get the clear to not clear the navbar float is to 
>> float an element that encloses it.  But every element I've tried it 
>> on didn't work.
>>
> Oh, I see what's going on now...the menu <div>'s floating, and the 
> content <div>'s not.  The content <div> needs to be floating too for 
> this to work.  If I have a moment today, I'll poke at it and see what 
> I can do with it.
>
> John
I tried to float the content div, but it just pushed it down past the 
menu :(  I didn't have time to putz with it (I would have been happy to) 
to see what the conflict was.

If you want to fix that, I'll commit my changes when I get back.

JF

Hello everyone,

On 2007-November-01  , at 12:21 , jiho wrote:
> Concretely:
> - I first need to add a tango-icons.svg file to the SVN repository so
> that people can work on the same file, possibly at the same time. I
> will include old icons, and the ArtLibre set in the file so that
> everything is at hand to design the new ones. When we are finished, we
> will only keep the new ones.

This is now done. The file is tango_icons.svg in share/icons/. I  
reorganized (cleaned?) the original icons file quite a bit (one can  
tab trhough them all now) and added Andreas' work in a new "Tango"  
layer.
Most icons still need to be drawn and many of the existing Tango ones  
need a rework either to scale them to their correct pixel size or to  
address concerns discussed in the previous messages of this threads.

Artists, grab your mouse/pen/whatever!

PS: the file can be seen without SVN access through the web interface
http://inkscape.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/inkscape/inkscape/trunk/ 
share/icons/tango_icons.svg?view=log

JiHO
---
http://jo.irisson.free.fr/

Hey, I finally had some time to figure out this website clearing issue 
and (hopefully) make it work.

Basically, I left-floated div.news, then had to add a clearing div 
around the "browse archive" link.

I committed changes and added a news item.  Please look at it and see if 
it is any good, and publish it if it is (both the css fix and the article).

Thanks.

JF

Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
> John Bintz wrote:
>   
>> Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
>>     
>>> jcoswell@... wrote:
>>>       
>>>> If all you're doing is adding class="clearfix" to the news item 
>>>> <div>s, and
>>>> the .clearfix definitions in base.css, then I think it should be OK. 
>>>> Commit it & let me know, and I'll pull down the latest version and make
>>>> sure it works OK.
>>>>   
>>>>         
>>> The only way to get the clear to not clear the navbar float is to 
>>> float an element that encloses it.  But every element I've tried it 
>>> on didn't work.
>>>
>>>       
>> Oh, I see what's going on now...the menu <div>'s floating, and the 
>> content <div>'s not.  The content <div> needs to be floating too for 
>> this to work.  If I have a moment today, I'll poke at it and see what 
>> I can do with it.
>>
>> John
>>     
> I tried to float the content div, but it just pushed it down past the 
> menu :(  I didn't have time to putz with it (I would have been happy to) 
> to see what the conflict was.
>
> If you want to fix that, I'll commit my changes when I get back.
>
> JF
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.net email is sponsored by: Splunk Inc.
> Still grepping through log files to find problems?  Stop.
> Now Search log events and configuration files using AJAX and a browser.
> Download your FREE copy of Splunk now >> http://get.splunk.com/
> _______________________________________________
> Inkscape-devel mailing list
> Inkscape-devel@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/inkscape-devel
>

Heh...I've been trying to figure out why the heck the archive articles 
weren't affected by my fix, then I realized the function it uses is 
completely separate from the main page news grabbing function!  I fixed 
that, too, by adding div.news around the content.  I'm sure there's a 
better way to do it, but figured if it didn't break anything I'd just 
reuse an existing css div.

Just curious...why don't we just use one function, and make it show the 
archive calendar if it's not the main news page?  Not criticizing, just 
wondering.

JF

Joshua Facemyer / Impressus Art wrote:
> Hey, I finally had some time to figure out this website clearing issue 
> and (hopefully) make it work.
>
> Basically, I left-floated div.news, then had to add a clearing div 
> around the "browse archive" link.
>
> I committed changes and added a news item.  Please look at it and see if 
> it is any good, and publish it if it is (both the css fix and the article).
>
> Thanks.
>
> JF
>   
>