Courier Mail Server

Rainer Dorsch writes:

> Hello,
> 
> I am running kmail 1.9.5 and courier-imap 4.1.1.20060828-5 both from Debian 
> etch.
> 
> I notice that I see from time to time 3 unread messages in the folder view in 
> my inbox. When I click on the inbox, there is no unread message (not even a 
> new one compared to the last time I was in the inbox). So the three unread 
> messages are some kind of "ghost messages".
> 
> Does anybody know where these ghost messages could come from? Is there 
> anything what I can check to locate the problem?

Try using a different IMAP client.

Il Tuesday 30 October 2007 03:19:53 Rainer Dorsch ha scritto:
> I am running kmail 1.9.5 and courier-imap 4.1.1.20060828-5 both from Debian
> etch.
>
> I notice that I see from time to time 3 unread messages in the folder view
> in my inbox. When I click on the inbox, there is no unread message (not
> even a new one compared to the last time I was in the inbox). So the three
> unread messages are some kind of "ghost messages".
>
> Does anybody know where these ghost messages could come from? Is there
> anything what I can check to locate the problem?

I happened the same thing in the Drafts folder. Using the ssh I found in the 
folder tow strange files, similar to Maildir style e-mail but empty or with 
bad header i don't remeber. Delete its.

Ciao
-- 
Alessio Cecchi is:
@ ILS -> http://www.linux.it/~alessice/
Assistenza Sistemi GNU/Linux -> http://www.cecchi.biz/
@ PLUG -> Presidente, http://www.prato.linux.it

On Tuesday, 30. October 2007 10:10, Alessio Cecchi wrote:
> Il Tuesday 30 October 2007 03:19:53 Rainer Dorsch ha scritto:
> > I am running kmail 1.9.5 and courier-imap 4.1.1.20060828-5 both from
> > Debian etch.
> >
> > I notice that I see from time to time 3 unread messages in the folder
> > view in my inbox. When I click on the inbox, there is no unread message
> > (not even a new one compared to the last time I was in the inbox). So t=
he
> > three unread messages are some kind of "ghost messages".
> >
> > Does anybody know where these ghost messages could come from? Is there
> > anything what I can check to locate the problem?
>
> I happened the same thing in the Drafts folder. Using the ssh I found in
> the folder tow strange files, similar to Maildir style e-mail but empty or
> with bad header i don't remeber. Delete its.
>

I sshed in my server and found that I have many files in my inbox:

rd@...$ ls -l|wc -l
177
rd@...$

My mail client counts 29 messages in my inbox plus (in the meantime) 6 unre=
ad=20
ghost messages which disappear when I open the inbox.

Does anybody know why some of them are not displayed?

Many thanks,
Rainer

=2D-=20
Rainer Dorsch
L=E4rchenstr. 6
D-72135 Dettenhausen
07157-734133
jabber: rdorsch@...
GPG Fingerprint: 5966 C54C 2B3C 42CC 1F4F  8F59 E3A8 C538 7519 141E
=46ull GPG key: http://pgp.mit.edu/

Rainer Dorsch writes:

> On Tuesday, 30. October 2007 10:10, Alessio Cecchi wrote:
>> Il Tuesday 30 October 2007 03:19:53 Rainer Dorsch ha scritto:
>> > I am running kmail 1.9.5 and courier-imap 4.1.1.20060828-5 both from
>> > Debian etch.
>> >
>> > I notice that I see from time to time 3 unread messages in the folder
>> > view in my inbox. When I click on the inbox, there is no unread message
>> > (not even a new one compared to the last time I was in the inbox). So the
>> > three unread messages are some kind of "ghost messages".
>> >
>> > Does anybody know where these ghost messages could come from? Is there
>> > anything what I can check to locate the problem?
>>
>> I happened the same thing in the Drafts folder. Using the ssh I found in
>> the folder tow strange files, similar to Maildir style e-mail but empty or
>> with bad header i don't remeber. Delete its.
>>
> 
> I sshed in my server and found that I have many files in my inbox:
> 
> rd@...$ ls -l|wc -l
> 177
> rd@...$
> 
> My mail client counts 29 messages in my inbox plus (in the meantime) 6 unread 
> ghost messages which disappear when I open the inbox.
> 
> Does anybody know why some of them are not displayed?

Probably because they're marked as deleted, and your client does not display 
deleted messages.

On Tuesday, 20. November 2007 06:58, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> Rainer Dorsch writes:
> > On Tuesday, 30. October 2007 10:10, Alessio Cecchi wrote:
> >> Il Tuesday 30 October 2007 03:19:53 Rainer Dorsch ha scritto:
> >> > I am running kmail 1.9.5 and courier-imap 4.1.1.20060828-5 both from
> >> > Debian etch.
> >> >
> >> > I notice that I see from time to time 3 unread messages in the folder
> >> > view in my inbox. When I click on the inbox, there is no unread
> >> > message (not even a new one compared to the last time I was in the
> >> > inbox). So the three unread messages are some kind of "ghost
> >> > messages".
> >> >
> >> > Does anybody know where these ghost messages could come from? Is the=
re
> >> > anything what I can check to locate the problem?
> >>
> >> I happened the same thing in the Drafts folder. Using the ssh I found =
in
> >> the folder tow strange files, similar to Maildir style e-mail but empty
> >> or with bad header i don't remeber. Delete its.
> >
> > I sshed in my server and found that I have many files in my inbox:
> >
> > rd@...$ ls -l|wc -l
> > 177
> > rd@...$
> >
> > My mail client counts 29 messages in my inbox plus (in the meantime) 6
> > unread ghost messages which disappear when I open the inbox.
> >
> > Does anybody know why some of them are not displayed?
>
> Probably because they're marked as deleted, and your client does not
> display deleted messages.

I have (today) 185 messages in total of which 154 messages are deleted.

kmail shows 31 messages which is consistent.

That mean that these 6 unread ghost messages must be from the deleted part =
and=20
in fact there are 6 unread deleted messages:


rd@...$ ls -lt|grep T|grep -v S
=2Drw------- 1 rd user    3191 Nov 18 04:09=20
1195355357.H300814P10760.bokomoko.korypet-solutions.com:2,T
=2Drw------- 1 rd user    3349 Nov 15 08:37=20
1195112225.H121115P8584.bokomoko.korypet-solutions.com:2,T
=2Drw------- 1 rd user    1594 Nov 10 08:00=20
1194678015.H997961P20160.bokomoko.korypet-solutions.com:2,T
=2Drw------- 1 rd user    2605 Nov  6 19:52=20
1194375159.H720063P23438.bokomoko.korypet-solutions.com:2,T
=2Drw------- 1 rd user    1810 Nov  6 08:00=20
1194332419.H729342P19539.bokomoko.korypet-solutions.com:2,T
=2Drw------- 1 rd user    1594 Nov  6 08:00=20
1194332414.H409094P19534.bokomoko.korypet-solutions.com:2,T
rd@...$

I guess when I delete these, I would be fine.


But that looks to me like a courier-imap issue. Kmail should never see thes=
e=20
messages (?). I keep them around for a while in case someone needs more deb=
ug=20
information.

Thanks,
Rainer

=2D-=20
Rainer Dorsch
L=E4rchenstr. 6
D-72135 Dettenhausen
07157-734133
jabber: rdorsch@...
GPG Fingerprint: 5966 C54C 2B3C 42CC 1F4F  8F59 E3A8 C538 7519 141E
=46ull GPG key: http://pgp.mit.edu/

Rainer Dorsch writes:

> 
> I guess when I delete these, I would be fine.
> 
> 
> But that looks to me like a courier-imap issue. Kmail should never see these 
> messages (?). I keep them around for a while in case someone needs more debug 
> information.

No, it's a not a Courier-IMAP issue. IMAP is working as designed. There's 
nothing magical about deleted messages. T is just a message flag. Message 
deletion, in IMAP, is a two-step process. First, messages are marked with a 
deleted flag, then a separate IMAP commands instructs the server to remove 
all deleted messages from the mailbox.

For the reasons that complete escape me, all GUI IMAP client, for some 
unfathomable reason, choose to implement message deletion by marking the 
messages as deleted, without removing them. Presumably the client then sends 
the second command occasionally, to prune out the mailbox every once in a 
while.

If you want to know why it's doing this, ask Kmail's developers.

<quote who="Sam Varshavchik">

> No, it's a not a Courier-IMAP issue. IMAP is working as designed. There's
>  nothing magical about deleted messages. T is just a message flag.
> Message
> deletion, in IMAP, is a two-step process. First, messages are marked with
> a deleted flag, then a separate IMAP commands instructs the server to
> remove all deleted messages from the mailbox.
>
> For the reasons that complete escape me, all GUI IMAP client, for some
> unfathomable reason, choose to implement message deletion by marking the
> messages as deleted, without removing them. Presumably the client then
> sends the second command occasionally, to prune out the mailbox every once
> in a while.


Sam,

a lurker here:

I use squirellmail, normally, when I delete, and, refresh, deleted are gone

ocassionally, though, after deletion, deleted still show in 'inbox' THOUGH,
'faint colored', sometimes for quite a while

so, that means squirellmail ocassionally just tags them, or, there is some
delay in sending the follow up command, yes ?

just curious...

-- 
Voytek

Voytek Eymont writes:

> 
> <quote who="Sam Varshavchik">
> 
>> No, it's a not a Courier-IMAP issue. IMAP is working as designed. There's
>>  nothing magical about deleted messages. T is just a message flag.
>> Message
>> deletion, in IMAP, is a two-step process. First, messages are marked with
>> a deleted flag, then a separate IMAP commands instructs the server to
>> remove all deleted messages from the mailbox.
>>
>> For the reasons that complete escape me, all GUI IMAP client, for some
>> unfathomable reason, choose to implement message deletion by marking the
>> messages as deleted, without removing them. Presumably the client then
>> sends the second command occasionally, to prune out the mailbox every once
>> in a while.
> 
> 
> Sam,
> 
> a lurker here:
> 
> I use squirellmail, normally, when I delete, and, refresh, deleted are gone
> 
> ocassionally, though, after deletion, deleted still show in 'inbox' THOUGH,
> 'faint colored', sometimes for quite a while
> 
> so, that means squirellmail ocassionally just tags them, or, there is some
> delay in sending the follow up command, yes ?
> 
> just curious...

Have no idea. I did not write squirellmail.

On Tuesday, 20. November 2007 20:00, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
> Rainer Dorsch writes:
> > I guess when I delete these, I would be fine.
> >
> >
> > But that looks to me like a courier-imap issue. Kmail should never see
> > these messages (?). I keep them around for a while in case someone needs
> > more debug information.
>
> No, it's a not a Courier-IMAP issue. IMAP is working as designed. There's
> nothing magical about deleted messages. T is just a message flag. Message
> deletion, in IMAP, is a two-step process. First, messages are marked with=
 a
> deleted flag, then a separate IMAP commands instructs the server to remove
> all deleted messages from the mailbox.
>
> For the reasons that complete escape me, all GUI IMAP client, for some
> unfathomable reason, choose to implement message deletion by marking the
> messages as deleted, without removing them. Presumably the client then
> sends the second command occasionally, to prune out the mailbox every once
> in a while.
>
> If you want to know why it's doing this, ask Kmail's developers.

Sam,

thanks for the quick reply. I understand that marking messages as deleted o=
r=20
remove them is up to the GUI IMAP client, kmail in this case.

Is the IMAP server supposed to tell the IMAP client about the deleted (but =
not=20
removed) messages? If yes, I agree then it is kmails fault that it displays=
=20
the unread deleted mails sometimes in the "folders view" and they disappear=
=20
as soon as I open inbox.

Another question:=20
I delete from time to time many mails from mailing lists using a IMAP clien=
t.=20
I would prefer to run a cron job on the server which deletes in some folder=
=20
mails older than 6 months. Can I implement a script which just deletes the=
=20
files or are there somewhere data structures maintained which I would bread=
=20
if I bypass the IMAP interface?

Thanks,
Raier

=2D-=20
Rainer Dorsch
L=E4rchenstr. 6
D-72135 Dettenhausen
07157-734133
jabber: rdorsch@...
GPG Fingerprint: 5966 C54C 2B3C 42CC 1F4F  8F59 E3A8 C538 7519 141E
=46ull GPG key: http://pgp.mit.edu/

Rainer Dorsch writes:

> Is the IMAP server supposed to tell the IMAP client about the deleted (but not 
> removed) messages? If yes, I agree then it is kmails fault that it displays 
> the unread deleted mails sometimes in the "folders view" and they disappear 
> as soon as I open inbox.

The IMAP server reports all messages in the folder, to the client, and the 
status of each message. There's nothing special about a message marked as 
deleted, not any more than the next message that's marked as unread. It's a 
message status flag, and all messages are handled the same way, differing 
only in their individual status flags.

> Another question: 
> I delete from time to time many mails from mailing lists using a IMAP client. 
> I would prefer to run a cron job on the server which deletes in some folder 
> mails older than 6 months. Can I implement a script which just deletes the 
> files or are there somewhere data structures maintained which I would bread 
> if I bypass the IMAP interface?

No, you are free to run scripts that remove individual messages. If an IMAP 
client happens to have the folder opened and the same time, and requests the 
contents of the message that you just removed, it will get an error, and 
some IMAP clients don't handle this very well, and crash. When the client 
gets restarted and reopens the folder, it should be fine.

Am Donnerstag, 22. November 2007 17:18 schrieb Sam Varshavchik:
> Rainer Dorsch writes:
> > Is the IMAP server supposed to tell the IMAP client about the deleted
> > (but not removed) messages? If yes, I agree then it is kmails fault that
> > it displays the unread deleted mails sometimes in the "folders view" and
> > they disappear as soon as I open inbox.
>
> The IMAP server reports all messages in the folder, to the client, and the
> status of each message. There's nothing special about a message marked as
> deleted, not any more than the next message that's marked as unread. It's=
 a
> message status flag, and all messages are handled the same way, differing
> only in their individual status flags.
>
> > Another question:
> > I delete from time to time many mails from mailing lists using a IMAP
> > client. I would prefer to run a cron job on the server which deletes in
> > some folder mails older than 6 months. Can I implement a script which
> > just deletes the files or are there somewhere data structures maintained
> > which I would bread if I bypass the IMAP interface?
>
> No, you are free to run scripts that remove individual messages. If an IM=
AP
> client happens to have the folder opened and the same time, and requests
> the contents of the message that you just removed, it will get an error,
> and some IMAP clients don't handle this very well, and crash. When the
> client gets restarted and reopens the folder, it should be fine.

Thanks, for the excellent and comprehensive answers.

Rainer

=2D-=20
Rainer Dorsch
L=E4rchenstr. 6
D-72135 Dettenhausen
07157-734133
email: rdorsch@...
jabber: rdorsch@...
GPG Fingerprint: 5966 C54C 2B3C 42CC 1F4F  8F59 E3A8 C538 7519 141E
=46ull GPG key: http://pgp.mit.edu/