On Sat, 26 Apr 2003 00:15:23 -0700 Bart Massey <bart@...> babbled:
> Greetings! Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you;
> I've got a job-critical paper due tomorrow, and it's been
> sucking all of the time (pun intended).
Don;t worry. we take our time too :)
> In message <20030424143221.073153d4.raster@...> you wrote:
> > I wrote:
> > > The other stuff you get is mostly bonus here. XCB is tiny
> > > (about 35KB built from about 5K lines of C and M4), but
> > > that's probably not so interesting to you. If you switch to
> > > a threaded model, you should need absolutely no changes to
> > > your app for XCB---no locking, no magic variable decls, etc.
> > We are really interested in XCB, not XCL though :) but hey... :)
> My bad: I was unclear here. What I tried and failed to say
> is that you interact identically with XCB/single-threaded or
> XCB/multithreaded: it's all the same API. This gives
> opportunities to use pthreads to make your life easier
> without a bunch of magic machinery.
though i will say it's pretty much policy around here to avoid threads at all
costs - if we can avoid them - we do. basically you end up having locking
problems because you always end up forgetting somewhere... so just avoid the
> > Now to the meat. XCB has pretty much what we
> > need... EXCEPT Xshm. I did a quick google for xshm
> > protocol specs.. got nothing within the first 50 or so
> > entries google gave me. for now i really don't want to dig
> > thru x source to get the docs.
> Jamey just checked in Xshm bits today. Took him and Keith
> about 1/2 hour to write and compile. It's completely
> untested, but simple enough that we're naive and think it
> will work anyway :-). Let us know how we're wrong.
aaah i see - i'll need to check. good stuff - bytw where did you get the xshm
> > last week or so i removed all Xlib data types from ecore_x
> > and now its opaque as to what sits under it. this lets us
> > 1. continue development with xlib, planning a bottom-up
> > move to xcb under the covers.
> Very cool.
> > basically here was an example of one of the bottlenecks
> > i was hoping to fix:
> > + we get propertynotify event.
> > + ecore_x now gets event and posts it.
> > + event callbacks ends up being called.
> > + if callback is interested in the actual property data
> > the app calls a property_fetch (this will be the async
> > version).
> > + some time later the reply comes back. this gets
> > converted into a synthetic event---property_notify_data---
> > and gets posted to all the callbacks for it.
> > this way when wm clients change title or properties -
> > especially a lot of them at once, the wm does not have to
> > block and wait for each fetch. they get pipelined as
> > needed.
> > xcl ALMOST lets us do this...
> (meant XCB here and elsewhere, no?)
yup. thats ewhat i meant :)
> > EXCEPT that when we want to get the property get reply -
> > it will BLOCK. we basically have to add a call to poll if
> > a certain cookie has been fetched already (we can run this
> > after the fd has become active and we've fetched all the
> > protocol).
> > ok - ecore's design works like this:
> > big select loop waiting on fd's and select exiting due to
> > signal, fd active or a timeout (for a timer). when it
> > exist it examines what caused it to exit and reads an fd
> > if its active, etc. (well calls he callback to read). this
> > is where currently xlib hooks in. when the x fd goes
> > active it processes events that are in the queue.
> > xcb needs to be able to fit in here - ie xcb fd went
> > active. ecore_x callback is called and that calls xcb's
> > fd data processor. ecore_x maintains a list of pending
> > replies we're interested in and if one is in the incoming
> > data buffer we post a synthetic reply event to the event
> > queue (locally). if tis an event we post the x event to
> > the queue. now when everything has been posted the event
> > queue is processed and callbacks set for the listed events
> > are called per event in the queue. it's pretty efficient
> > at what it does - it's the blocking xlib calls such as
> > XGetWindowProperty etc. that are bad - and we need to be
> > able to wake up on an fd. xcl is almost there, but not
> > quite
> You should be able to select on the XCB fd and have
> something sensible happen. See below.
> As you say elsewhere, the question is what to do about
> marshalling X replies---XCB has a queue for matching replies
> with cookies: it seems like this should be useful somehow
> here :-). Given that I understand your architecture (and
> I've been confused before) here's three suggestions in
> decreasing order of radicalness/work on your part.
> (1) Use threads. The whole reason that XCB has transparent
> thread support is to avoid callback hell. Basically,
> allocate one or more threads, and let them block forcing
> their cookie. This probably requires some major
> rearchitecting of your stuff, though.
nah. will be keeping right out of thrads :) i'm not a fan of them :(
> (2) (My favorite.) Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but the
> single-threaded XCB model is designed to encourage the
> following behavior: don't ever force a cookie until you
> need the data! IOW, instead of generating a synthetic
> event when a reply comes in and then digging around to
> process it, change things a bit to work as follows:
> When a PropertyNotify event appears, a property fetch
> request is sent to the server for any property that
> might matter, and the cookie is stashed somewhere. (At
> this point, if there's an existing cookie outstanding
> for fetching this property, ask XCB to throw it away:
> you want the new value, not some stale one.) Now (and
> here's the tricky part) never force the cookie until
> you're sure you actually need the reply data for
> something. At that point, you know you might block, but
> by gosh you need to block, since the app can't go on
> without the data.
aaah this is where our model really comes up trumps for speed. we dont care when
the reply comes - the code works in a way where it doesnt ever "need" the reply.
the code is "reactionary" ie - it will on;ly react once the reply comes in. if
it takes 0.1 seconds, 1 second to 10 minutes. it doesnt care. example:
we get a property notify for WM_NAME. we now get window title property.
(WM_NAME). gthe title of the window wont be changed until the reply to the
property get reply comes in - until then we can continue drawing, asking for
other properties, drawing or whatever. the fact that the kernel buffers the x
calls and that xcb, xlib etc. do too means that we end up witha bunch of replies
& events in one lump before we finish receiving them and so we only render
updates (titles, new borders etc.) once we go idle. this avoids falling behind
as we play catchup with events coming in by putting the most expensive steps
(rendering and screne updates) in our state machine update, and not when every
event comes in.
> Of course, you'll still want to select on the X fd and
> process events: XCB will let you do this fine by calling
> XCBPollEvent when select returns true.
> Can this model work with your app? It sounded like it
> from what you said above, but it's quite possible I'm
> missing something.
> (3) Do the simple thing you were proposing. As noted above,
> you should be able to select on the X server fd using
> XCB. When you've done that, you somehow ask XCB to
> process the connection and let you know what replies it
> found. IIRC there's no mechanism to do this currently,
> but it should be as simple as digging the "seqnum" field
> out of the XCBConnection and checking to see if it has
> become >= the sequence number of some cookie you're
> holding. Some API documentation on XCB would help
> :-)---apparently we never documented it much, as far as
> I can tell now :-(.
aaaah ok. the fact there was no mechanism was what stopped me :) i guess i could
have dug it out :) but yeah - this is whats needed. this lets us simply "react"
only to the reply of the property as now we have all the info we need there in
memory. this makes for a very optimal systemthat is always VERY responsive :)
> > :) for now we're still on xlib - but i've made things
> > ready to use xcb and hope people will help move to it as
> > it can give considerable speedups as very few people
> > realise one of the worst performance bottlenecks in x is
> > actually the round-trips you have to do.
> You bet.
> > > If there's stuff we can do to help, we will. As someone
> > > noted on the list, we think that most toolkits and apps
> > > using Xlib can move to XCB pretty easily and get a lot out
> > > of it. We're excited to help it move forward.
> > but how can they get something out of it if they still
> > just use xlib calls? you dont save on the round
> > trips... :) unless u start using xcb calls :)
> Yeah, XCL is kind of a side gig. It's not really targeted
> at currently-supported X apps: they should be able to just
> switch to XCB pretty easily. The biggest uses of XCL are
> (1) since you can mix XCB and XCL calls, you can migrate an
> app incrementally, which can be a bit easier, and (2)
definitely. i guess our path is to use our wrapper layer - same idea :)
> XCL+XCB is tiny: handhelds and the like can avoid Xlib
> altogether even for legacy Xlib apps (and without even
> recompiling, since XCL is binary-compatible).
thats true. x or pda's is rather a hog. the server itself being a good 800kb of
binary code and then add in xlib, libxext etc. etc. it adds up to a good 2mb of
flash... and this is not widget sets, imaging libraries etc. yet :)
> Hope this helps! Let us know what option of (1)..(3) above
> appeals to you: if it's (3) we'll look at getting the
> necessary evil hacked into XCB.
3. we're doing everything single threaded as a event driven system - the system
always RESPONDS to events - everything gets driven by an event (if you count a
timer as an event). everything ets translated into events. SIGUSR1, SIGUSR2,
SIGCHLD, SIGTERM, data coming down an fd, or socket etc. it all just ends up a
data structure on a list and gets run through with appropriate callbacks called,
being passed the struct. when the current queue is finished with processing
(calling the callbacks) and the app is about to go to sleep and wait for a timer
to expire, or for data to come in to produce an event, it goes and updates its
state by rendering, moving windows etc. so far i've found this a VERY effective
way of 1. avoiding threads, 2. minimising cpu usage, 3. providing excellet
synchronization between parts of the system. :)
> Bart Massey
--------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------------
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) raster@...
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