OpenEEG - EEG hardware and software

Hi,

You could also use some kind of rem-sleep detector that you wear on your
face. You would have it wake you say 20 mins after you've started dreaming
(depending on how long the dreaming periods last for you)
I suggest you google for "rem sleep detector" or similar

OpenEEg can be used too, of course. Eeg is probably the most reliable way
to tell the sleeping state someone is in.
You may have to write some additional code for your specific purpose..
better have somebody else tell you, because i'm not yet very much into the
openEEg software

regards,
Martijn



Op Ma, 3 juli, 2006 9:56 pm schreef Ben Byer:
> I have some fairly bad problems with sleep inertia -- I often wake up
> very groggy.  It seems widely reported that sleep inertia is worse when you
> are interrupted during "deep" sleep (higher stages).  The "popular" way to
> avoid this is by carefully timing sleep -- only sleep for 40 minutes, or
> sleep for a multiple of 90 minutes to try to awaken during a "light"
> sleep.  However, that 90-minute "sleep period" varies from person to
> person.  Wouldn't it be possible to make some sort of device that monitors
> your sleep state and only wakes you up at the "right" time?  A "smart"
> alarm clock?
>
> Would this be possible with an OpenEEG variant and a little bit of
> software?  Or, is there a simpler way to determine sleep level in a
> sleeping person?
>
> Ben
>
>
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
>  Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job
> easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
> Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Openeeg-list@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>

Hi,

AFAIK detecting REM with only EEG is definitely not as easy as it seems. In laboratories
REM detection is usually accomplished by using EEG, EMG and EOG all toghether, but this
would not be very convenient at home in every night. If someone knows how to do this only
with EEG let me know, I am very interested.

It should be however relatively easy to detect deep/shallow phase of dream by measuring
amplitude of Delta wave. It is lowest when dreaming is most shallow.

An example recording during night is here:
http://www.bioera.net/gallery/results/night_aug_27.gif
It shows quite nicely how the dreaming phases change every 90 minutes or so.

Jarek



--- m.van.pottelberghe@... wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> You could also use some kind of rem-sleep detector that you wear on your
> face. You would have it wake you say 20 mins after you've started dreaming
> (depending on how long the dreaming periods last for you)
> I suggest you google for "rem sleep detector" or similar
> 
> OpenEEg can be used too, of course. Eeg is probably the most reliable way
> to tell the sleeping state someone is in.
> You may have to write some additional code for your specific purpose..
> better have somebody else tell you, because i'm not yet very much into the
> openEEg software
> 
> regards,
> Martijn
> 
> 
> 
> Op Ma, 3 juli, 2006 9:56 pm schreef Ben Byer:
> > I have some fairly bad problems with sleep inertia -- I often wake up
> > very groggy.  It seems widely reported that sleep inertia is worse when you
> > are interrupted during "deep" sleep (higher stages).  The "popular" way to
> > avoid this is by carefully timing sleep -- only sleep for 40 minutes, or
> > sleep for a multiple of 90 minutes to try to awaken during a "light"
> > sleep.  However, that 90-minute "sleep period" varies from person to
> > person.  Wouldn't it be possible to make some sort of device that monitors
> > your sleep state and only wakes you up at the "right" time?  A "smart"
> > alarm clock?
> >
> > Would this be possible with an OpenEEG variant and a little bit of
> > software?  Or, is there a simpler way to determine sleep level in a
> > sleeping person?
> >
> > Ben
> >
> >
> > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> >  Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job
> > easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
> > Geronimo
> > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> > _______________________________________________
> > Openeeg-list mailing list
> > Openeeg-list@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> > Go to the above address to change your
> > subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
> >
> 
> 
> 
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Openeeg-list@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>

Hi,

Jarek Foltynski, 03.07.2006 23:31 :
> Hi,
> 
> AFAIK detecting REM with only EEG is definitely not as easy as it seems.

Detecting REM is very easy. Just put one electrode beneath an eye and one beside.


> In laboratories
> REM detection 

Sleep phase rating...


> is usually accomplished by using EEG, EMG and EOG all toghether, but this
> would not be very convenient at home in every night. If someone knows how to do this only
> with EEG let me know, I am very interested.

Regards,

	Joerg

Hi Joerg,

> Detecting REM is very easy. Just put one electrode beneath an eye and one beside.

Have you tried something like that? What kind of activity do you measure between those
electrodes? Amplitude of delta waves?

Rapid eye movement is something different then for example eye blinking so how to
test/check it without sleep?

Thanks
Jarek

http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:7VXmbCnOpfYJ:www.freepatentsonline.com/5
280791.html+rem+sleep+detector&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=19
----- Original Message -----
From: <m.van.pottelberghe@...>
To: "General discussion of hardware and software, for developers and users."
<openeeg-list@...>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: [Openeeg-list] detecting sleep


> Hi,
>
> You could also use some kind of rem-sleep detector that you wear on your
> face. You would have it wake you say 20 mins after you've started dreaming
> (depending on how long the dreaming periods last for you)
> I suggest you google for "rem sleep detector" or similar
>
> OpenEEg can be used too, of course. Eeg is probably the most reliable way
> to tell the sleeping state someone is in.
> You may have to write some additional code for your specific purpose..
> better have somebody else tell you, because i'm not yet very much into the
> openEEg software
>
> regards,
> Martijn
>
>
>
> Op Ma, 3 juli, 2006 9:56 pm schreef Ben Byer:
> > I have some fairly bad problems with sleep inertia -- I often wake up
> > very groggy.  It seems widely reported that sleep inertia is worse when
you
> > are interrupted during "deep" sleep (higher stages).  The "popular" way
to
> > avoid this is by carefully timing sleep -- only sleep for 40 minutes, or
> > sleep for a multiple of 90 minutes to try to awaken during a "light"
> > sleep.  However, that 90-minute "sleep period" varies from person to
> > person.  Wouldn't it be possible to make some sort of device that
monitors
> > your sleep state and only wakes you up at the "right" time?  A "smart"
> > alarm clock?
> >
> > Would this be possible with an OpenEEG variant and a little bit of
> > software?  Or, is there a simpler way to determine sleep level in a
> > sleeping person?
> >
> > Ben
> >
> >
> > Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services,
security?
> >  Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job
> > easier Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache
> > Geronimo
> > http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> > _______________________________________________
> > Openeeg-list mailing list
> > Openeeg-list@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> > Go to the above address to change your
> > subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
> >
>
>
>
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job
easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Openeeg-list@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>

Phillip Marx, 04.07.2006 01:31 :
> http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:7VXmbCnOpfYJ:www.freepatentsonline.com/5
> 280791.html+rem+sleep+detector&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=19


"...
I claim:

1. A system for determining the sleep status of a person, which comprises:

(a) means to measure the person's cardiac R-R waves interval;

(b) means to calculate the power spectrum of the cardiac R-R interval, including 
means for calculating a ratio between spectral power in the slow and high 
frequencies;

(c) means responsive to said measuring and calculating means for generating 
output signals, one output signal having a first valve when said ratio is above 
a specific predetermined threshold, designated as REM sleep, and one output 
signal having a second value when the above ratio is below this threshold, 
designated as non-REM sleep; and
..."

This should be quite easily done with the ModularEEG.

However: How reliable will this method of REM sleep detection be?

Regards,

	Joerg

Hi,

Jarek Foltynski, 04.07.2006 01:10 :
> Hi Joerg,
> 
> 
>>Detecting REM 


I was not quite precise:
Instead of REM (that more indicates a sleep stage) I meant rapid eye movements 
in the EOG.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrooculography
"...
Electrooculography (EOG) is a technique for measuring the resting potential of 
the retina, the resulting signal is called electrooculogram. The main 
applications are in ... and in recording eye movements. ...

Eye movement measurements: Usually, pairs of electrodes are placed either above 
and below the eye or to the left and right of the eye. If the eye is moved from 
the center position towards one electrode, this electrode "sees" the positive 
side of the retina and the opposite electrode "sees" the negative side of the 
retina. Consequently, a potential difference occurs between the electrodes. 
Assuming that the resting potential is constant, the recorded potential is a 
measure for the eye position.
..."


> is very easy. Just put one electrode beneath an eye and one beside.

This placement is sensitive to horizontal and vertical eye movements, however 
some diagonal movements might cancel out (what should not be a big problem).


> Have you tried something like that? 

I had observed that looking up and down created large slow waves directly 
related to my (open) eye movements.
The amplitude was quite high even on far sites like Cz (WRT Au1,Au2)

> What kind of activity do you measure between those
> electrodes? 

Each eyebulb forms a dipole. Moving this by looking in different directions 
creates quite large voltages between the electrodes mounted next to the eyes.

 > Amplitude of delta waves?

Strictly an EOG has nothing to do with delta waves, however the spectra surely 
overlap.


> Rapid eye movement is something different then for example eye blinking

Yes.

> so how to
> test/check it without sleep?

e.g. you could sit quite close (gives greater eye movement angle) before an LCD 
monitor (less interference than CRT) and watch some movie/TV. This should give a 
quite usable approximation of the EOG in REM sleep.


Here is some u(t) graph of the REM phase EOG:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/REM.png

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement)

Regards,

	Joerg

Too bad there doesn't seem to be any recent press for these wearable sleep
sensors for ocular EMG REM:
http://72.14.203.104/search?q=cache:LDpuw_wYEjcJ:www.irvine-sensors.com/r_an
d_d.html+flex+sleep+%22irvine+sensors%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1


----- Original Message -----
From: "Joerg Hansmann" <info@...>
To: "General discussion of hardware and software, for developers and users."
<openeeg-list@...>
Sent: Monday, July 03, 2006 6:05 PM
Subject: [Openeeg-list] EOG Re: detecting sleep


> Hi,
>
> Jarek Foltynski, 04.07.2006 01:10 :
> > Hi Joerg,
> >
> >
> >>Detecting REM
>
>
> I was not quite precise:
> Instead of REM (that more indicates a sleep stage) I meant rapid eye
movements
> in the EOG.
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrooculography
> "...
> Electrooculography (EOG) is a technique for measuring the resting
potential of
> the retina, the resulting signal is called electrooculogram. The main
> applications are in ... and in recording eye movements. ...
>
> Eye movement measurements: Usually, pairs of electrodes are placed either
above
> and below the eye or to the left and right of the eye. If the eye is moved
from
> the center position towards one electrode, this electrode "sees" the
positive
> side of the retina and the opposite electrode "sees" the negative side of
the
> retina. Consequently, a potential difference occurs between the
electrodes.
> Assuming that the resting potential is constant, the recorded potential is
a
> measure for the eye position.
> ..."
>
>
> > is very easy. Just put one electrode beneath an eye and one beside.
>
> This placement is sensitive to horizontal and vertical eye movements,
however
> some diagonal movements might cancel out (what should not be a big
problem).
>
>
> > Have you tried something like that?
>
> I had observed that looking up and down created large slow waves directly
> related to my (open) eye movements.
> The amplitude was quite high even on far sites like Cz (WRT Au1,Au2)
>
> > What kind of activity do you measure between those
> > electrodes?
>
> Each eyebulb forms a dipole. Moving this by looking in different
directions
> creates quite large voltages between the electrodes mounted next to the
eyes.
>
>  > Amplitude of delta waves?
>
> Strictly an EOG has nothing to do with delta waves, however the spectra
surely
> overlap.
>
>
> > Rapid eye movement is something different then for example eye blinking
>
> Yes.
>
> > so how to
> > test/check it without sleep?
>
> e.g. you could sit quite close (gives greater eye movement angle) before
an LCD
> monitor (less interference than CRT) and watch some movie/TV. This should
give a
> quite usable approximation of the EOG in REM sleep.
>
>
> Here is some u(t) graph of the REM phase EOG:
>
> http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/44/REM.png
>
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapid_eye_movement)
>
> Regards,
>
> Joerg
>
> Using Tomcat but need to do more? Need to support web services, security?
> Get stuff done quickly with pre-integrated technology to make your job
easier
> Download IBM WebSphere Application Server v.1.0.1 based on Apache Geronimo
> http://sel.as-us.falkag.net/sel?cmd=lnk&kid=120709&bid=263057&dat=121642
> _______________________________________________
> Openeeg-list mailing list
> Openeeg-list@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/openeeg-list
> Go to the above address to change your
> subscription options, e.g unsubscribe.
>

Hi Joerg,

> Detecting REM is very easy. Just put one electrode beneath an eye and one beside.
> 
>  > Amplitude of delta waves?
> 
> Strictly an EOG has nothing to do with delta waves, however the spectra surely 
> overlap.

I understand that it is possible to measure and observe some eyes activity with EOG. But
how to recognize REM (rapid eye movement) from that signal?

Jarek

Hi,

Jarek Foltynski, 04.07.2006 04:44 :
> Hi Joerg,
> 
> 
>>Detecting REM is very easy. Just put one electrode beneath an eye and one beside.
>>
>> > Amplitude of delta waves?
>>
>>Strictly an EOG has nothing to do with delta waves, however the spectra surely 
>>overlap.
> 
> 
> I understand that it is possible to measure and observe some eyes activity with EOG.

Electrodes placed besides the eyes produce very high voltage levels (around 
400uVp-p in darkness for 30° movement)

see here:
http://webvision.med.utah.edu/ClinicalERG.html
http://webvision.med.utah.edu/imageswv/DONFig44.jpg (electrode placement)
http://webvision.med.utah.edu/imageswv/DONFig45.jpg
http://webvision.med.utah.edu/imageswv/DONFig47.jpg
http://webvision.med.utah.edu/imageswv/DONFig48.jpg (EOG uVp-p voltage @ 30° 
movement angle in darkness and with light)

> But
> how to recognize REM (rapid eye movement) from that signal?

If a detection accuracy comparable with the Nova-Dreamer is enough, full wave 
rectification ( abs(u(t)) ) and comparision with a fixed threshold voltage (e.g. 
100uV DC) should detect eye movement events in REM sleep.

To get a steady boolean true output during REM sleep, the comparison should 
trigger a (retriggerable) timer (monoflop, oneshot) that goes off (boolean 
false) after e.g. 1 minute.

Regards,

	Joerg

hello list,

Is there anybody that use's  matlab with the modeeg?
and/or have developed some kind of a modeeg driver for
matlab ? 



there are lots of great tool box's for matlab like
this one : 

http://www.sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/

best regards
Amyl

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Hi,

Amyl, 18.07.2006 11:05 :
> hello list,
> 
> Is there anybody that use's  matlab with the modeeg?
 > and/or have developed some kind of a modeeg driver for
 > matlab ?

I have tried to write a m function, that reads ModularEEG P2 data from a serial 
port and decode the data into channels.

Basically it worked but was way too slow for real time on my ATHLON 1200 / WinXP

> there are lots of great tool box's for matlab like
> this one : 
> 
> http://www.sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/

Thanks for sharing this link!

EEG lab is really cool.

However I could not find any hint that it is for real time processing. So for 
offline analysis data import should be quite easy from any other OpenEEG 
software that can read P2/P3 serial data and write it to file.
(e.g. bioera, brainbay, neoroserver, bioexplorer)


Regards,

	Joerg

hi Joerg,
 
--- Joerg Hansmann <info@...> wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Amyl, 18.07.2006 11:05 :
> > hello list,
> > 
> > Is there anybody that use's  matlab with the
> modeeg?
>  > and/or have developed some kind of a modeeg
> driver for
>  > matlab ?
> 
> I have tried to write a m function, that reads
> ModularEEG P2 data from a serial 
> port and decode the data into channels.

Could you give me a simple explanation as how one
could 
decode data packets into channels ?

dues the m function file still exist?

> Basically it worked but was way too slow for real
> time on my ATHLON 1200 / WinXP

could  it run real time as compiled exe file runing
outside of matlab?

Do you
 think it would run any better on more grunnty
machine?

> > there are lots of great tool box's for matlab like
> > this one : 
> > 
> > http://www.sccn.ucsd.edu/eeglab/
> 
> Thanks for sharing this link!
 no problem !

> EEG lab is really cool.
> 
> However I could not find any hint that it is for
> real time processing.  So for 
> offline analysis data import should be quite easy
> from any other OpenEEG 
> software that can read P2/P3 serial data and write
> it to file.
> (e.g. bioera, brainbay, neoroserver, bioexplorer)

regards,
      
 Amyl

 

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