Aleph One: Marathon Open Source

i guess you just can't read.  have him do that with 700 polys and tell 
me how it looks.  i could make something akin to a poser model from 
scratch.  but how is that going to render in the game?  you'd only be 
able to render one model at a time in the game, and that's gonna get 
pretty boring, right?  if you want your friend to make models for the 
game, go ahead, but i dont think anyone's gonna use them if they're 
gonna look like that.  well, at least not til we have 4 gigahertz G6s.

alex.

On Monday, August 27, 2001, at 06:05 PM, Joshua E Jansen wrote:

> http://www.meowx.f2s.com/enforcer.jpg
>
> thats a model on the side, guys. Fresh from the mind of David K. (he 
> did that while bored, btw)
>
> Again, alex, Im sorry! He is just better!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Marathon-devel mailing list
> Marathon-devel@...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/marathon-devel

sorry for posting again, but like i said earlier, if your friend is 
going to make models for the game, let's start seeing them.  it's all 
fine and dandy that you can show us what he's done, but maybe he should 
be speaking for himself?  it wouldn't make much sense telling everyone 
that your friend can make much better models than my crappy ones, and 
then i leave, and either your friend doesn't do squat (since we haven't 
heard from him) or his models are so realistic that they're not usable.  
so if you want, keep posting all the pretty pictures he's done, but 
until he speaks for himself and starts showing some results, i don't 
think anyone's gonna take you seriously.

alex


>> http://www.meowx.f2s.com/enforcer.jpg
>>
>> thats a model on the side, guys. Fresh from the mind of David K. (he 
>> did that while bored, btw)
>>
>> Again, alex, Im sorry! He is just better!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Marathon-devel mailing list
>> Marathon-devel@...
>> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/marathon-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Marathon-devel mailing list
> Marathon-devel@...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/marathon-devel

I'm sick of this.  This is not the model review list.  If you want to make 
models, go ahead.  When you're done, publish your models on the internet.  
I'll download whatever I feel like.  If you make 10,000,000 poly models I 
won't download them, and if they look bad I won't download them.  We don't 
really need an official model maker.

On Monday, August 27, 2001, at 07:21  PM, alex wrote:

> i guess you just can't read.  have him do that with 700 polys and tell me 
> how it looks.  i could make something akin to a poser model from scratch.
>   but how is that going to render in the game?  you'd only be able to 
> render one model at a time in the game, and that's gonna get pretty boring,
>  right?  if you want your friend to make models for the game, go ahead, 
> but i dont think anyone's gonna use them if they're gonna look like that.
>   well, at least not til we have 4 gigahertz G6s.
>
> alex.
>
> On Monday, August 27, 2001, at 06:05 PM, Joshua E Jansen wrote:
>
>> http://www.meowx.f2s.com/enforcer.jpg
>>
>> thats a model on the side, guys. Fresh from the mind of David K. (he did 
>> that while bored, btw)
>>
>> Again, alex, Im sorry! He is just better!
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Marathon-devel mailing list
>> Marathon-devel@...
>> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/marathon-devel
>
> _______________________________________________
> Marathon-devel mailing list
> Marathon-devel@...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/marathon-devel
>

on 8/27/01 7:05 PM, Joshua E Jansen at jejansen@... wrote:

> http://www.meowx.f2s.com/enforcer.jpg
> 
> thats a model on the side, guys. Fresh from the mind of David K. (he did
> that while bored, btw)
> 
> Again, alex, Im sorry! He is just better!

Err. Let me interject... Better is a relative term. He may be great at
modeling with subdivision surfaces or splines or whatever, and lighting them
so you really can't see anything but a few specular highlights here and
there (based on the two samples I have seen) but that if a FAR cry from
being able to make game models with a mere handful of polygons and no shafty
rendering lighting effects to hide behind.

okay look i'm not trying to start a fight, but it seems that 3d models 
are an issue here since they've actually been partially implemented.

if you think this subject is bogus, well you can just trash this piece 
of mail now, or have me removed from the list, whatever.  one more email 
in your box won't kill ya.

i think it's just amazing how there's always someone to complain about 
just about every subject there is on this list.  anyways, what my 
concern is that if someone's going to make models that are better than 
mine, fine, but i don't want to waste my time on it then.  i want to see 
what this guy can do for a game.  it seems that he doesn't make skins 
for his models, he uses textures.  i may be wrong, but that's how it 
looks to me, and for a game you need skins.  to Davy's friend (i dont 
know the email):  have you ever noticed that in high end games like 
unreal tournament, the models are blockier than your friend Davy's 
models?  wanna know why?  because even a game like that can't handle the 
models.  they need to look like that in order for the game to be 
playable.  you don't really think that your friend is a better modeler 
than they are, do you?  there's no way to compare, but i really doubt 
it.  and if he did that really cool way awesome totally neato picture 
while he was bored, then maybe next time he's bored he can do some 
models for the game.  shouldn't be too hard.




On Monday, August 27, 2001, at 07:33 PM, Dietrich Epp wrote:

> I'm sick of this.  This is not the model review list.  If you want to 
> make models, go ahead.  When you're done, publish your models on the 
> internet.  I'll download whatever I feel like.  If you make 10,000,000 
> poly models I won't download them, and if they look bad I won't 
> download them.  We don't really need an official model maker.
>
> On Monday, August 27, 2001, at 07:21  PM, alex wrote:
>
>> i guess you just can't read.  have him do that with 700 polys and tell 
>> me how it looks.  i could make something akin to a poser model from 
>> scratch.
>>   but how is that going to render in the game?  you'd only be able to 
>> render one model at a time in the game, and that's gonna get pretty 
>> boring,
>>  right?  if you want your friend to make models for the game, go 
>> ahead, but i dont think anyone's gonna use them if they're gonna look 
>> like that.
>>   well, at least not til we have 4 gigahertz G6s.
>>
>> alex.
>>
>> On Monday, August 27, 2001, at 06:05 PM, Joshua E Jansen wrote:
>>
>>> http://www.meowx.f2s.com/enforcer.jpg
>>>
>>> thats a model on the side, guys. Fresh from the mind of David K. (he 
>>> did that while bored, btw)
>>>
>>> Again, alex, Im sorry! He is just better!
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Marathon-devel mailing list
>>> Marathon-devel@...
>>> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/marathon-devel
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Marathon-devel mailing list
>> Marathon-devel@...
>> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/marathon-devel
>>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Marathon-devel mailing list
> Marathon-devel@...
> http://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/marathon-devel

On Monday, August 27, 2001, at 07:58  PM, alex wrote:

> okay look i'm not trying to start a fight, but it seems that 3d models are 
> an issue here since they've actually been partially implemented.
>
> if you think this subject is bogus, well you can just trash this piece of 
> mail now, or have me removed from the list, whatever.  one more email in 
> your box won't kill ya.

In that case, another reply won't hurt.  I'm here to provide and receive 
input to and from other developers interested in Marathon.  I really don't 
care how good you are at making models.  Since I'm not particularly 
interested in them I just trash the mail about implementing models, model 
formats, model announcements, et cetera.  A discussion on how good a 
particular model / model maker is is not pertinent to the list and I just 
want you to shut up or go elsewhere.

I'm not saying models are a bogus subject, on the contrary models would be 
a killer app for this game (relatively speaking).  However, specific models 
are unimportant.  Imagine what would happen if someone posted a message 
announcing a new texture for the game, and someone replied saying that he 
knew someone who made better textures.  I wouldn't put up with that either.

Anyone looking for model guidelines might check out model guidelines for 
games like Quake 3 or Unreal Tournament.

i was under the impression that there would be a standard set of models 
distributed with the game on the 'final build'.  seeing as how everyone 
wants to keep the game so that you can still play ALL the old marathon 
stuff, if they want to do it with 3D, why not include them in the same 
package, just like the enhanced textures, things like that.

if you trash the email before you read it, then why is it such a big 
deal?  i would suggest that we should have a "show of hands" system for 
threads that 'should' be stopped, but that would just be a few more 
emails that would make your life miserable.

alex.

On Monday, August 27, 2001, at 08:57 PM, Dietrich Epp wrote:

> In that case, another reply won't hurt.  I'm here to provide and 
> receive input to and from other developers interested in Marathon.  I 
> really don't care how good you are at making models.  Since I'm not 
> particularly interested in them I just trash the mail about 
> implementing models, model formats, model announcements, et cetera.  A 
> discussion on how good a particular model / model maker is is not 
> pertinent to the list and I just want you to shut up or go elsewhere.
>
> I'm not saying models are a bogus subject, on the contrary models would 
> be a killer app for this game (relatively speaking).  However, specific 
> models are unimportant.  Imagine what would happen if someone posted a 
> message announcing a new texture for the game, and someone replied 
> saying that he knew someone who made better textures.  I wouldn't put 
> up with that either.

On Monday, August 27, 2001, at 10:09  PM, alex wrote:

> i was under the impression that there would be a standard set of models 
> distributed with the game on the 'final build'.  seeing as how everyone 
> wants to keep the game so that you can still play ALL the old marathon 
> stuff, if they want to do it with 3D, why not include them in the same 
> package, just like the enhanced textures, things like that.
>
> if you trash the email before you read it, then why is it such a big deal?
>   i would suggest that we should have a "show of hands" system for threads 
> that 'should' be stopped, but that would just be a few more emails that 
> would make your life miserable.

1. It is possible to write a message without intending to hurt feelings.

2. I'm not in this for the politics.  I just object to the constant "these 
models rock" "yeah but these are better" "no yours suck".

3. I think it could be done in a far simpler way.  Simply get someone to 
collect pictures of all the models and have him or her put the pics on a 
website and call on people to vote.  Votes would be sent directly to this 
person.

4. Another option is that everyone who wants to make models can post his or 
her models on a website and people could choose.  This way, people playing 
in software mode won't have to download all this.  I assume software 
graphics support is still in, because some people are pushing for software 
options.

At 8:48 PM -0600 8/27/01, James Hastings-Trew wrote:
>on 8/27/01 7:05 PM, Joshua E Jansen at jejansen@... wrote:

>  > http://www.meowx.f2s.com/enforcer.jpg

>Err. Let me interject... Better is a relative term. He may be great at
>modeling with subdivision surfaces or splines or whatever, and lighting them
>so you really can't see anything but a few specular highlights here and
>there (based on the two samples I have seen) but that if a FAR cry from
>being able to make game models with a mere handful of polygons and no shafty
>rendering lighting effects to hide behind.

	I agree. I think that one ought to look at modelmaking for 
Quake-engine games, since that is an abundantly-documented field :-)

	A good place to look might be http://www.planetquake.com

	Which gives a good potential starting point for animated 
models: Quake-engine model formats. These use vertex-set animations, 
but they could be used to work out the animated-model handling in the 
code. I wonder how many of you would like the Bobs looking like that 
Quake guy :-)

-- 
Loren Petrich -- petrich@...
http://www.petrich.com/home.html
Happiness is a fast Macintosh
And a fast train

On Mon, Aug 27, 2001 at 10:09:16PM -0700, alex wrote:
> i was under the impression that there would be a standard set of models 
> distributed with the game on the 'final build'.  seeing as how everyone 
> wants to keep the game so that you can still play ALL the old marathon 
> stuff, if they want to do it with 3D, why not include them in the same 
> package, just like the enhanced textures, things like that.
> 

As has been stated before, there is not, nor will there ever be, a certified
or blessed set of standard artwork/scenarios distributed with Aleph One.
Artwork is greatly encouraged, as the greatest engine is nothing without it,
but there will be no one set deemed the official scenario or artwork. One
benefit of this is the elimination of squabbling. There is absolutely no
reason in the world that two modeling artists cannot contribute models to
Aleph One. (In fact, we all benefit if they both do.) If they happen to
contribute two of the same model, a packager can decide which to
include--just as well as a second packager can choose oppositely of the
first. That allows for a set of scenarios or artwork to be included for the
users' benefit.

After all, if we were building a car, would it be unreasonable for one to
provide the wheels and another to provide the engine? And if two volunteers
were to both offer wheels of their own design, what should prevent the user
from choosing among them according to his/her preferences?

In short, we need cooperation, not bitter competition.

-- 
Derek Moeller

At 10:09 PM -0700 8/27/01, alex wrote:
>i was under the impression that there would be a standard set of 
>models distributed with the game on the 'final build'. ...

	Where did you get that idea?????

-- 
Loren Petrich -- petrich@...
http://www.petrich.com/home.html
Happiness is a fast Macintosh
And a fast train

well, what would prevent the volunteer from making them would be that 
they're not getting paid for redundant work =).  i'm not asking for 
money, i'm just saying that i, myself, don't want to do any redundant 
work.  it's perfectly fine if someone else does it.

On Tuesday, August 28, 2001, at 06:45 PM, Derek Moeller wrote:

> And if two volunteers
> were to both offer wheels of their own design, what should prevent the 
> user
> from choosing among them according to his/her preferences?

i got that idea from the fact that enhanced textures will also be 
included (unless i'm wrong with that too).  i thought that the original 
marathon models were wanted for something like this so they could be 
packaged with it, to make it all fun and happy with 3d and such...  i 
didn't know i was entertaining just like 2 people's requests by making 
the actual marathon models in 3d.   but if they're not i suppose i'd 
just be better off making models for my own scenarios, as i really 
probably won't use the original marathon ones.

On Tuesday, August 28, 2001, at 07:28 PM, Loren Petrich wrote:

> Where did you get that idea?????
>

On 8/29/01 12:54 AM, "alex" <murdermachine@...> wrote:

> i got that idea from the fact that enhanced textures will also be
> included (unless i'm wrong with that too).  i thought that the original
> marathon models were wanted for something like this so they could be
> packaged with it, to make it all fun and happy with 3d and such...  i
> didn't know i was entertaining just like 2 people's requests by making
> the actual marathon models in 3d.   but if they're not i suppose i'd
> just be better off making models for my own scenarios, as i really
> probably won't use the original marathon ones.
> 
I think you're misunderstanding. There will never be a 'standard' set of
files packaged with Aleph One. This has been the case since the beginning of
the project. However, there are projects like the Texture Enhancement
project, which make a set of files that go with Aleph. My guess is that
something similar will happen with models. So one will be able to download
Aleph, download the Texture Enhancement pack, and the Model pack, and play a
very good looking version of Infinity, or whatever map. One could bundle the
three into one download, but that doesn't make it 'official'. The Aleph One
project has one goal: Improving Aleph One. So making 'official' models and
textures and stuff would not be within the scope of that goal.

The Texture Enhancement project has become the standard, because there are
no other packages of high res textures for aleph floating around, and my
guess is that the same will happen with the model pack (assuming that one is
made).

As with the Texture Enhancement project, many people would download and use
the models, so you would not be "entertaining just like 2 people's
requests", I'm sure many people would be grateful to have you make models.

-- Owen
"What is the average air-speed velocity of an unladen swallow?" - Monty
Python