FlightGear - Flight Simulator

On 27/02/06, Jon S. Berndt <jsb@...> wrote:

> Has anyone ever checked to see how many lines of code are involved in
> plib/simgear/flightgear?

It's not all that useful a metric -- I'd prefer to count methods,
functions, etc. -- but FlightGear checks in at roughly 215,000 lines
of C/C++ code, and SimGear checks in at close to 75,000 lines.

Why stop there, though?  The base package contains about 95,000 (!!!)
lines of XML and nearly 30,000 lines of NASAL scripts.  Of course, we
should also count the raster graphics, sound samples, 3D models,
non-XML data files, etc. etc.


All the best,


David

--
http://www.megginson.com/

> Has anyone ever checked to see how many lines of code are involved in
> plib/simgear/flightgear?
>
> Jon


This:

wc `find . -name "*.[ch]??";find . -name "*.[ch]"`

results in a finding that there are 420,000+ lines in the source and header
files. That's not lines-of-code, but just lines.

Jon

> It's not all that useful a metric -- I'd prefer to count methods,
> functions, etc. -- but FlightGear checks in at roughly 215,000 lines
> of C/C++ code, and SimGear checks in at close to 75,000 lines.
>
> Why stop there, though?  The base package contains about 95,000 (!!!)
> lines of XML and nearly 30,000 lines of NASAL scripts.  Of course, we
> should also count the raster graphics, sound samples, 3D models,
> non-XML data files, etc. etc.
>
> David

No, it may not always be terribly useful, but it is an intersting metric -
particularly when you know of similar projects and their source code count.
All those other things you mention are also of great interest. It is also
directly relevant to the make process. Another metric: there are ~1500 files
in the plib/simgear/flightgear codebase.

Jon

> Another metric: there are  ~1500 files
> in the plib/simgear/flightgear codebase.
>
> Jon

Here's a clarification (before I get called on this), there are ~1500 .c,
.h, .cpp, .cxx, and .hxx files.

Jon

On Monday 27 February 2006 16:50, David Megginson wrote:
> On 27/02/06, Jon S. Berndt <jsb@...> wrote:
> > Has anyone ever checked to see how many lines of code are involved in
> > plib/simgear/flightgear?
>
> It's not all that useful a metric -- I'd prefer to count methods,
> functions, etc. -- but FlightGear checks in at roughly 215,000 lines
> of C/C++ code, and SimGear checks in at close to 75,000 lines.
>
> Why stop there, though?  The base package contains about 95,000 (!!!)
> lines of XML and nearly 30,000 lines of NASAL scripts.  Of course, we
> should also count the raster graphics, sound samples, 3D models,
> non-XML data files, etc. etc.
>
>

Just for fun, I did a word count on my custom build, unlicensable AI traffic 
file:

durk@...> wc Traffic/traffic.xml
  4629929   4629960 144213423 Traffic/traffic.xml
durk@...>

Let's see, that's 4 million sixhunderd and something lines of xml code alone 
modeling over 24 thousand aircraft :-)

durk@...> grep -c "</aircraft>" 
Traffic/traffic.xml
24465
durk@...>     

Given these numbers, I'm amazed at how fast this file loads, and how few 
errors I've encountered in the AIModels code, but given the size of over 100 
megabytes, I'm considering changing the format to something a "little" more 
efficient.

Cheers,
Durk

David Megginson wrote:

>It's not all that useful a metric -- I'd prefer to count methods,
>functions, etc. -- but FlightGear checks in at roughly 215,000 lines
>of C/C++ code, and SimGear checks in at close to 75,000 lines.
>
>Why stop there, though?  The base package contains about 95,000 (!!!)
>lines of XML and nearly 30,000 lines of NASAL scripts.  Of course, we
>should also count the raster graphics, sound samples, 3D models,
>non-XML data files, etc. etc.
>  
>

If you dig up a utility called "sloc" (source lines of code) it suggests 
that we are sitting on a body of code that would have cost 10's of 
millions of dollars to produce had we done it in a traditional 
commercial environment.  It makes some "wild" estimates on how many  
lines of code an engineer can produce in a day, and how much an engineer 
might cost.  But even with conservative estimates we have a pretty 
impressive little chunk of code here.

Curt.

-- 
Curtis Olson        http://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text:        2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d

On 27/02/06, Curtis L. Olson <curt0001@...> wrote:

> If you dig up a utility called "sloc" (source lines of code) it suggests
> that we are sitting on a body of code that would have cost 10's of
> millions of dollars to produce had we done it in a traditional
> commercial environment.  It makes some "wild" estimates on how many
> lines of code an engineer can produce in a day, and how much an engineer
> might cost.  But even with conservative estimates we have a pretty
> impressive little chunk of code here.

Add a zero, Curt, at least from my experience.  As a consultant, I've
seen more than one $100M+ system that sets out to do a lot less than
FlightGear and fails even at that.

The nice thing about Open Source is that (a) it attracts people who
like coding, who tend to be the ones who are good at it, and (b) it
attracts people who like the project they're working on, making them
even better at it.

The difference in productivity between an unmotivated, mediocre
seat-warmer and a motivated, skilled developer is, in my experience,
about two orders of magnitude (yes, I know that means that a highly
skilled developer can do as much in three days as a mediocre one can
in a year, and I'll stand by that).  Companies who try to save money
by hiring lots of cheap developers instead of a few good ones, please
take note.


All the best,


David

--
http://www.megginson.com/

On Monday 27 February 2006 10:50, David Megginson wrote:
> Why stop there, though? =A0The base package contains about 95,000 (!!!)
> lines of XML and nearly 30,000 lines of NASAL scripts. =A0Of course, we
> should also count the raster graphics, sound samples, 3D models,
> non-XML data files, etc. etc.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> David

30,000 lines of NASAL scripts?  Do we really have that many?

Ampere

> From: "David Megginson"
> 
> On 27/02/06, Curtis L. Olson <curt0001@...> wrote:
> 
> > If you dig up a utility called "sloc" (source lines of code) it suggests
> > that we are sitting on a body of code that would have cost 10's of
> > millions of dollars to produce had we done it in a traditional
> > commercial environment.  It makes some "wild" estimates on how many
> > lines of code an engineer can produce in a day, and how much an engineer
> > might cost.  But even with conservative estimates we have a pretty
> > impressive little chunk of code here.
> 
> Add a zero, Curt, at least from my experience.  As a consultant, I've
> seen more than one $100M+ system that sets out to do a lot less than
> FlightGear and fails even at that.
> 

I knew it!  Time for another rate increase.  Tell me the price of those projects at least included some test hardware, documentation and deployment.  Oh...and just to clarify,  these were existing projects you were called in late to fix, right? ;-)

Best,

Jim


-- 
Jim Wilson
Kelco Industries
PO Box 160
Milbridge, ME 04658
207-546-7989

On 28/02/06, Jim Wilson <jimw@...> wrote:

> I knew it!  Time for another rate increase.

The big consulting companies get that money, then hire inexperienced,
underpaid programmers to do the work.

> Tell me the price of those projects at least included some test hardware,=
 documentation and deployment.  Oh...and just to clarify,  these were exist=
ing projects you were called in late to fix, right? ;-)

Yes, sadly.  If big companies are going to waste that much money, I
wish they'd waste some more of it in people like us.


All the best,


David

--
http://www.megginson.com/

On Tuesday 28 February 2006 12:04, David Megginson wrote:
> Yes, sadly. =A0If big companies are going to waste that much money, I
> wish they'd waste some more of it in people like us.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
> David

We might get money thrown at us if we somehow tie AJAX into the project. ;-)

Ampere

> We might get money thrown at us if we somehow tie AJAX into the project. ;-)

    We're set! FGMap uses AJAX :P


Pigeon.

Pigeon wrote:

>>We might get money thrown at us if we somehow tie AJAX into the project. ;-)
>>    
>>
>
>    We're set! FGMap uses AJAX :P
>
>  
>

Pigeon,

Can I suggest a feature request for your online multiplayer map?  Would 
it be possible to "lock on" to a particular player so the view will 
always stay centered (or will recenter on the player every "x" 
seconds?)  This would save me a *lot* of clicking if I have a map setup 
to follow myself on a long cross country flight.

Thanks,

Curt.

-- 
Curtis Olson        http://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text:        2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d

"Curtis L. Olson" wrote:

> Can I suggest a feature request for your online multiplayer map?

While we are at it, I'd like to add another request - not that much a
feature request:
It's pretty likely that we're going to have a booth at the Linux-Tag
exhibition in Wiesbaden on May 3 - 6, 2006. In order to present the
local area to the visitors it would be nice to have an online-map
showing Wiesbaden and its entourage.

Can I persuade you to consider setting up a second online-map for this
area ? Not to forget: As a bonus it would be exciting if FlightGear
multiplayer users would focus on exploring that area during the
Linux-Tag days.

Cheers,
	Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Martin Spott wrote:

>"Curtis L. Olson" wrote:
>
>  
>
>>Can I suggest a feature request for your online multiplayer map?
>>    
>>
>
>While we are at it, I'd like to add another request - not that much a
>feature request:
>It's pretty likely that we're going to have a booth at the Linux-Tag
>exhibition in Wiesbaden on May 3 - 6, 2006. In order to present the
>local area to the visitors it would be nice to have an online-map
>showing Wiesbaden and its entourage.
>
>Can I persuade you to consider setting up a second online-map for this
>area ? Not to forget: As a bonus it would be exciting if FlightGear
>multiplayer users would focus on exploring that area during the
>Linux-Tag days.
>

I don't see why we'd need a special map setup for this area.  The 
current MP is based on google maps which has some level of worldwide 
coverage at least with satellite imagery.  So we have to take what we 
get anyway and the current maps cover the whole world.

It would be cool to have a lot of active flyers during the show if you 
are able to connect up and participate.

We tried to setup an IRC station at the Scale show last month, but that 
ended up not being very useful, we were too busy talking to the people 
at the show all day.

Curt.

-- 
Curtis Olson        http://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text:        2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d

"Curtis L. Olson" wrote:
> Martin Spott wrote:

>>While we are at it, I'd like to add another request - not that much a
>>feature request:
>>It's pretty likely that we're going to have a booth at the Linux-Tag
>>exhibition in Wiesbaden on May 3 - 6, 2006. In order to present the
>>local area to the visitors it would be nice to have an online-map
>>showing Wiesbaden and its entourage.

> I don't see why we'd need a special map setup for this area.

Oh, I'm not talking about a special map, I meant almost the same setup
just focusing a different location. As I said: "not that much a feature
request".

> It would be cool to have a lot of active flyers during the show if you 
> are able to connect up and participate.

Would be cool, indeed. I hope displaying dozends of multiplayer
aircraft doesn't bring our hardware down to its knees  :-)
We'll see, if we get into trouble we still can pull the plug.

Cheers,
	Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

> Can I suggest a feature request for your online multiplayer map?  Would 
> it be possible to "lock on" to a particular player so the view will 
> always stay centered (or will recenter on the player every "x" 
> seconds?)  This would save me a *lot* of clicking if I have a map setup 
> to follow myself on a long cross country flight.

    It's already done...

    For those who might have missed, you could click on the bottom bar,
where the "FGMap | <server name> | pilots: n" is, and bring up a menu.
In the pilots tab, you could select pilots and have them always be
visible on the map. You can select multiple pilots too.

    For more descriptions, check out the help tab I've added a few days
ago.

    Perhaps I should make the menu visible by default ;)


    And while we're on this topic, I've been planning to add some sort
of airport/navids lookup onto the map. And perhaps some basic flight
planning feature too. Feel free to give me some suggestions on how it
could be used/done.


Pigeon.

Pigeon wrote:

>>Can I suggest a feature request for your online multiplayer map?  Would 
>>it be possible to "lock on" to a particular player so the view will 
>>always stay centered (or will recenter on the player every "x" 
>>seconds?)  This would save me a *lot* of clicking if I have a map setup 
>>to follow myself on a long cross country flight.
>>    
>>
>
>    It's already done...
>  
>

Awsome, I'll have to play around with that.

>    For those who might have missed, you could click on the bottom bar,
>where the "FGMap | <server name> | pilots: n" is, and bring up a menu.
>In the pilots tab, you could select pilots and have them always be
>visible on the map. You can select multiple pilots too.
>
>    For more descriptions, check out the help tab I've added a few days
>ago.
>
>    Perhaps I should make the menu visible by default ;)
>  
>

I found it without having it start visible ... it's a tradeoff in screen 
space usage I guess.

>    And while we're on this topic, I've been planning to add some sort
>of airport/navids lookup onto the map. And perhaps some basic flight
>planning feature too. Feel free to give me some suggestions on how it
>could be used/done.
>  
>

Well, let me know if you have any questions.  This would be an awsome 
feature to add navaids, airports, and airways.  We have all the data you 
need in the FlightGear base package.  You could even draw taxiways at 
the appropriate zoom levels.  I've done something similar for a past 
commercial project and it's not all that hard I don't think.  I don't 
know the constraints of the google map api, but I'm happy to answer 
questions about the FlightGear data and the format and the parsing thereof.

Curt.

-- 
Curtis Olson        http://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text:        2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d

> >   Perhaps I should make the menu visible by default ;)
> 
> I found it without having it start visible ... it's a tradeoff in screen 
> space usage I guess.

    Not until now I just figured, most of the time when you get to the
map, you want either see who's online, or make yourself always center
anyway. I've just committed the change :)


> Well, let me know if you have any questions.  This would be an awsome 
> feature to add navaids, airports, and airways.  We have all the data you 
> need in the FlightGear base package.  You could even draw taxiways at 
> the appropriate zoom levels.  I've done something similar for a past 
> commercial project and it's not all that hard I don't think.  I don't 
> know the constraints of the google map api, but I'm happy to answer 
> questions about the FlightGear data and the format and the parsing thereof.

    Yes. For a start, I have put all the data from apt.dat into a
database (mysql), and I've got a script working to do some simple query
from it and response with XML (which can be used in the map).


    I'll need to sort of the drawing/marking of airports and runways,
etc. And yes I'll probably have a elements be visible only at a certain
zoom levels. I certainly don't want to display all airports on the map
when you are at the view of the entire world. ;)


    What I'm actually not sure is, what would make sense for a pilot.
Like, what would pilots lookup and want to find out on the map when they
want to fly from A to B. And what will be the "workflow" of planning a
flight on a map like this. Things like that.


Pigeon.

> Can I persuade you to consider setting up a second online-map for this
> area ? Not to forget: As a bonus it would be exciting if FlightGear
> multiplayer users would focus on exploring that area during the
> Linux-Tag days.
> 
> Cheers,
> 	Martin.

    I'm not sure exactly what you need.

    Oh yeah, we should setup something for the show :)

    Anyway, maybe you can setup a local (as in local to the show) server
and local FGMap. And have the server linked to os's and my server too.
Then make sure we know what time we should logon :) (And the version of
FG too, stable or CVS...)


Pigeon.

Pigeon wrote:

>     Anyway, maybe you can setup a local (as in local to the show) server
> and local FGMap. And have the server linked to os's and my server too.

That makes much sense - I just didn't dare to expect that bidirectional
replication between servers is possible ....

Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Martin Spott wrote:

>That makes much sense - I just didn't dare to expect that bidirectional
>replication between servers is possible ....
>  
>

Come on, do you think you are dealing with amateurs here?[1]

:-)

[1] I am stealing that comment from one of our other developers.

Curt.

-- 
Curtis Olson        http://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text:        2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d

Hi,

One more MP moving map request since we are on the subject today.

It appears the heading is computed from current position - last 
position.  However when an aircraft is stopped this produces an icon 
that pops around between wildly different headings.  Would it be 
possible to use the actual aircraft heading, or save the last heading 
and use that when the speed drops below some threshold?  It's a minor 
point, but wierd to see an airplane at the end of the runway with it's 
heading popping all over between random values.

Thanks,

Curt.

-- 
Curtis Olson        http://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text:        2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d

On Wed, 2006-03-01 at 11:10 -0600, Curtis L. Olson wrote:
> Pigeon wrote:
> 
> >>We might get money thrown at us if we somehow tie AJAX into the project. ;-)
> >>    
> >>
> >
> >    We're set! FGMap uses AJAX :P
> >
> >  
> >
> 
> Pigeon,
> 
> Can I suggest a feature request for your online multiplayer map?  Would 
> it be possible to "lock on" to a particular player so the view will 
> always stay centered (or will recenter on the player every "x" 
> seconds?)  This would save me a *lot* of clicking if I have a map setup 
> to follow myself on a long cross country flight.
> 
> Thanks,

Curt, 

That's a great idea so great that the functionality is already
there! :-P

1. Click on the white server name at the bottom of the screen. the
dialog will expand from the bottom of the screen
2. Check the pilot name and Follow pilot.

That should track the plane. (No one was online when I wrote these
instructions and I was heading out the door just now).


Regards


George

On Wednesday 01 March 2006 03:14, Pigeon wrote:
> > We might get money thrown at us if we somehow tie AJAX into the project.
> > ;-)
>
> =A0 =A0 We're set! FGMap uses AJAX :P
>
>
> Pigeon.

Great!  Now, all we need to do is to get one of those companies' attention =
and=20
so money can start getting thrown our way...

Ampere

> It appears the heading is computed from current position - last 
> position.  However when an aircraft is stopped this produces an icon 
> that pops around between wildly different headings.

    Yeah that is correct.

> Would it be 
> possible to use the actual aircraft heading, or save the last heading 
> and use that when the speed drops below some threshold?  It's a minor 
> point, but wierd to see an airplane at the end of the runway with it's 
> heading popping all over between random values.

    It should be possible to use the actual heading. I need have a look
at the MP protocol again, or someone might want to point out to me which
part of the data/numbers i can make use of...


Pigeon.

On Thursday 02 March 2006 04:47,  Pigeon wrote:
> > Would it be
> > possible to use the actual aircraft heading, or save the last heading
> > and use that when the speed drops below some threshold?  It's a minor
> > point, but wierd to see an airplane at the end of the runway with it's
> > heading popping all over between random values.
>
>     It should be possible to use the actual heading. I need have a look
> at the MP protocol again, or someone might want to point out to me which
> part of the data/numbers i can make use of...

The FG-protocoll sends a vector as orientation data, defined as:

--- cut ---
    // orientation wrt the earth centered frame, stored in the angle axis
    // representation where the angle is coded into the axis length
    xdr_data_t orientation[3];
--- cut ---

I can either compute a degree value (0=north, 180=south etc) and provide the 
map with this as an additional value or provide the complete vector.

Since the map uses the telnet interface to the server, which in fact wasn't 
meant to get "abused" that way but let humans have a look at current clients, 
I suggest to let the server print out a degree value so humans can make sense 
of that value, too.

regards,
Oliver

Curtis L. Olson wrote:

> We tried to setup an IRC station at the Scale show last month, but that 
> ended up not being very useful, we were too busy talking to the people 
> at the show all day.

I know that feeling - I've just got back from a 4 day photographic 
exhibition.

I'll be responding to all those people who've mailed me about the 
scenery database over the next couple of days as I steadily catch up on 
all my email.

-- 
Jon Stockill
lists@...

On Thursday 02 March 2006 09:55, Oliver Schroeder wrote:
> The FG-protocoll sends a vector as orientation data, defined as:
>
> --- cut ---
>     // orientation wrt the earth centered frame, stored in the angle axis
>     // representation where the angle is coded into the axis length
>     xdr_data_t orientation[3];
> --- cut ---
>
> I can either compute a degree value (0=3Dnorth, 180=3Dsouth etc) and prov=
ide
> the map with this as an additional value or provide the complete vector.
>
> Since the map uses the telnet interface to the server, which in fact wasn=
't
> meant to get "abused" that way but let humans have a look at current
> clients, I suggest to let the server print out a degree value so humans c=
an
> make sense of that value, too.
Well the choice to use that 'compressed angle axis' format for the orientat=
ion=20
is to have a minimum size format for that data to gain a maximum of=20
additional space for additional information like property changes.

   Greetings

         Mathias

=2D-=20
Mathias Fr=F6hlich, email: Mathias.Froehlich@...

Martin Spott wrote:

> It's pretty likely that we're going to have a booth at the Linux-Tag
> exhibition in Wiesbaden on May 3 - 6, 2006. In order to present the
> local area to the visitors it would be nice to have an online-map
> showing Wiesbaden and its entourage.

Yesterday evening I was confirmed that we _will_ get a free booth on
the LinuxTag show (3rd to 6th May). Now several things come into my
mind that would help us to make our presence on the show a success and
that we probably won't find the time to do everything ourselves. So
here's my "feature request" - others might follow  :-)

The LinuxTag-show will take place at the Rhein-Main-Hallen in Wiesbaden

  http://www.linuxtag.org/2006/en/home/aktuelles.html
  http://www.rhein-main-hallen.de/

We already triggered Ralf and Ingrid to try to prepare detailed scenery
for the show so that the guests of our booth could fly around over the
local entourage. Now as I realize that much progress has been made
regarding the Scenery Objects Database and that there are lots of
skilled designers out there I'd like to ask kindly if those who have
fun to create new scenery models would consider creating some buildings
that reside in the environment of Wiesbaden. There definitely _are_
lots of significant buildings there so having a few of then to show on
the show would be terribly nice.
Please post your intentions on this list in order to avoid duplicate
effort on certain buildings.

There's another request: Is anybody on this list who has experience in
createin live-CD's like Knoppix ? It would be nice to have a FlightGear
live-CD to give away - or at least to have a CD image on out FTP
mirrors that we can point at.

Next one: I know how it feels to fly a real aircraft but I've never
used a yoke or pedals with FlightGear. Sometimes I've use other
people's equipment with M$FS but I wasn't satisfied. The pedals I found
there had a spring that centers the pedal position much too hard - but
in a real aircraft (Cessna, Piper) you don't need strong initial forces
to move the pedals out of the center position. Now: Does anyone have a
recommendation for pedals and a yoke that he knows resemble the
controls of a real aircraft ?

And the last one for today: Is anyobody on this list whom we didn't
already contact, who would like to support us in running the booth and
who at least is able to speak som German words ? The more people we
have at the booth the easier the 'job' will get.

Thanks,
	Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

> There's another request: Is anybody on this list who has experience in
> createin live-CD's like Knoppix ? It would be nice to have a FlightGear
> live-CD to give away - or at least to have a CD image on out FTP
> mirrors that we can point at.


    I have done some live cds stuff for work. And in fact I'm also in
progress of making a linux live usb flash drive myself too.


    My feeling is making a live cd that runs FG is not hard. The tricky
part would be having it to automagically setup things like X with good
3d hardware acceleration, or perhaps joysticks, etc.


    For example with nvidia cards we might need to download, install and
configure X by itself at boot time, as we probably can't just ship the
nvidia proprietary driver(?)


    But anyway, I'm willing to help and spend sometime looking into
this.


Pigeon.

Martin Spott wrote:

> Yesterday evening I was confirmed that we _will_ get a free booth on
> the LinuxTag show (3rd to 6th May). Now several things come into my
> mind that would help us to make our presence on the show a success and
> that we probably won't find the time to do everything ourselves. So
> here's my "feature request" - others might follow  :-)

Another one: It would be terrific if we'd experience a crash-free (in
the sense of a software crash  :-)  FlightGear simulator during the
show. Maybe would be a good idea to couple this event with an official
Flightgear release as the goals are very similar: The software should
run stable, there should be a deadline that can't be pushed back
arbitrarily and there should be some public attention ....

Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Martin Spott wrote:

>Yesterday evening I was confirmed that we _will_ get a free booth on
>the LinuxTag show (3rd to 6th May). Now several things come into my
>mind that would help us to make our presence on the show a success and
>that we probably won't find the time to do everything ourselves. So
>here's my "feature request" - others might follow  :-)
>
>The LinuxTag-show will take place at the Rhein-Main-Hallen in Wiesbaden
>
>  http://www.linuxtag.org/2006/en/home/aktuelles.html
>  http://www.rhein-main-hallen.de/
>  
>

Martin,

I've added a very short entry in our events section on the FG web site.  
Feel free to expand on that a little bit if you like and send me the 
results.  Or if you are happy with the current text we can just leave it 
alone.

>There's another request: Is anybody on this list who has experience in
>createin live-CD's like Knoppix ? It would be nice to have a FlightGear
>live-CD to give away - or at least to have a CD image on out FTP
>mirrors that we can point at.
>
>Next one: I know how it feels to fly a real aircraft but I've never
>used a yoke or pedals with FlightGear. Sometimes I've use other
>people's equipment with M$FS but I wasn't satisfied. The pedals I found
>there had a spring that centers the pedal position much too hard - but
>in a real aircraft (Cessna, Piper) you don't need strong initial forces
>to move the pedals out of the center position. Now: Does anyone have a
>recommendation for pedals and a yoke that he knows resemble the
>controls of a real aircraft ?
>  
>

I don't know of anything inexpensive except for the CH products yoke and 
pedals.  I can say that it's possible to get the correct feel of the 
pedals and yoke (within FAA Level 3 FTD standards) using only springs.  
It's just a matter of adjusting the spring tension until you get within 
tolerence.

http://www.atcflightsim makes some hardware with a really nice feel 
especially for light single engine planes, but I imagine the cost is a 
little out of the range of an typical individual since they sell whole 
simulator systems, not just pieces.  PFC also makes more realistic 
hardware, but as far as I know there is no FG interface.  At one time 
(several years ago) I offered to build one for them, but they didn't 
care to talk to me and weren't interested in FG.  Now I've lost personal 
interest in supporting PFC hardware, but it's fine if someone else wants 
to build the interface.

>And the last one for today: Is anyobody on this list whom we didn't
>already contact, who would like to support us in running the booth and
>who at least is able to speak som German words ? The more people we
>have at the booth the easier the 'job' will get.
>  
>

Let me just say that hanging out in a booth is a *lot* of fun.  You get 
to spend the entire day talking about FlightGear and flight simulation 
and aviation ... what could be better?

Regards,

Curt.

-- 
Curtis Olson        http://www.flightgear.org/~curt
HumanFIRST Program  http://www.humanfirst.umn.edu/
FlightGear Project  http://www.flightgear.org
Unique text:        2f585eeea02e2c79d7b1d8c4963bae2d

Hi Martin,

-->snip
> Next one: I know how it feels to fly a real aircraft but I've never
> used a yoke or pedals with FlightGear. Sometimes I've use other
> people's equipment with M$FS but I wasn't satisfied. The pedals I found
> there had a spring that centers the pedal position much too hard - but
> in a real aircraft (Cessna, Piper) you don't need strong initial forces
> to move the pedals out of the center position. Now: Does anyone have a
> recommendation for pedals and a yoke that he knows resemble the
> controls of a real aircraft ?

if we aren't able to get any hardware for flying we can use my pedals and my 
joystick (Simped-F16/USB and ThrustMaster Hotas Cougar/USB).

Greetings

Matthias

On 03/03/06, Matthias Boerner <matthias-boerner@...> wrote:

> > Next one: I know how it feels to fly a real aircraft but I've never
> > used a yoke or pedals with FlightGear. Sometimes I've use other
> > people's equipment with M$FS but I wasn't satisfied. The pedals I found
> > there had a spring that centers the pedal position much too hard - but
> > in a real aircraft (Cessna, Piper) you don't need strong initial forces
> > to move the pedals out of the center position. Now: Does anyone have a
> > recommendation for pedals and a yoke that he knows resemble the
> > controls of a real aircraft ?
>
> if we aren't able to get any hardware for flying we can use my pedals and=
 my
> joystick (Simped-F16/USB and ThrustMaster Hotas Cougar/USB).

I had the CH USB yoke and pedals, but ended up donating both to our
local charity store about a year ago.  They took up a lot of room,
were a pain to set up, and didn't make the aircraft any easier to
control.


All the best,


David

--
http://www.megginson.com/

On Fri, 3 Mar 2006 19:00:03 +1100, Pigeon wrote in message 
<20060303080003.GA10915@...>:

> > There's another request: Is anybody on this list who has experience
> > in createin live-CD's like Knoppix ? It would be nice to have a
> > FlightGear live-CD to give away - or at least to have a CD image on
> > out FTP mirrors that we can point at.
> 
> I have done some live cds stuff for work. And in fact I'm also in
> progress of making a linux live usb flash drive myself too.

..me 2, off and on since a coupla years back  ;o)
 
> My feeling is making a live cd that runs FG is not hard. The tricky
> part would be having it to automagically setup things like X with good
> 3d hardware acceleration, or perhaps joysticks, etc.
> 
> For example with nvidia cards we might need to download, install and
> configure X by itself at boot time, as we probably can't just ship the
> nvidia proprietary driver(?)

..chk out Kanotix and Games-Knoppix, they actually ship the binaries on
the iso's.  Games-Knoppix' ATI support is _uselessly_ buggy for at least
the 128bit 9250, ATI proprietary driver cannot use it and vice versa,
and the GPL DRI etc "radeon" (and "ati") driver is thrown away by the
Games-Knoppix X setup, which sees the hardware and fucks up by loading
ATI's "fireglx".  
Kanotix is sort of ok last year and is on my todo-list. ;o) 

> But anyway, I'm willing to help and spend sometime looking into this.

.."damn, _everything_ happens _right_ now!"  ;o)  KOSH?  ;o)

..for parametric 3d modelling, have any of you guys played with 
BRL-CAD?  http://brlcad.org/ ,  is GPL, I use it for my gas power 
plants (thermochemical gasification).  Decided to try it as I found 
no easy way to do parametric modelling in Blender, BRL-CAD is 
_neat_, and David M should enjoy the Emacs-like Jove cli.  ;o)

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt... ;o)
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.

On Friday 03 March 2006 08:40, Martin Spott wrote:
> Martin Spott wrote:
> > It's pretty likely that we're going to have a booth at the Linux-Tag
> > exhibition in Wiesbaden on May 3 - 6, 2006. In order to present the
> > local area to the visitors it would be nice to have an online-map
> > showing Wiesbaden and its entourage.
>
> Yesterday evening I was confirmed that we _will_ get a free booth on
> the LinuxTag show (3rd to 6th May). Now several things come into my
> mind that would help us to make our presence on the show a success and
> that we probably won't find the time to do everything ourselves. So
> here's my "feature request" - others might follow  :-)
>
Unfortunately, I will be staying in Kingston, Ont, Canada from mid April until 
mid June. Otherwise I would probably have joined in. LinuxTag 2001 was so 
great, I'd loved to go back again sometime. 

Cheers,
Durk

On Friday 03 March 2006 17:28, Curtis L. Olson wrote:
> Let me just say that hanging out in a booth is a *lot* of fun.  You get
> to spend the entire day talking about FlightGear and flight simulation
> and aviation ... what could be better?
Well, looking forward to that!

   Greetings

          Mathias

=2D-=20
Mathias Fr=F6hlich, email: Mathias.Froehlich@...

On Friday 03 March 2006 22:53, David Megginson wrote:
> On 03/03/06, Matthias Boerner <matthias-boerner@...> wrote:
> > > Next one: I know how it feels to fly a real aircraft but I've never
> > > used a yoke or pedals with FlightGear. Sometimes I've use other
> > > people's equipment with M$FS but I wasn't satisfied. The pedals I fou=
nd
> > > there had a spring that centers the pedal position much too hard - but
> > > in a real aircraft (Cessna, Piper) you don't need strong initial forc=
es
> > > to move the pedals out of the center position. Now: Does anyone have a
> > > recommendation for pedals and a yoke that he knows resemble the
> > > controls of a real aircraft ?
> >
> > if we aren't able to get any hardware for flying we can use my pedals a=
nd
> > my joystick (Simped-F16/USB and ThrustMaster Hotas Cougar/USB).
>
> I had the CH USB yoke and pedals, but ended up donating both to our
> local charity store about a year ago.  They took up a lot of room,
> were a pain to set up, and didn't make the aircraft any easier to
> control.
>
>
> All the best,
>
> David


If you want decent rudder pedals then you may want to look at the Flight Li=
nk=20
Jet Rudder Control Module from=20
http://www.aviationsimulation.co.uk/acatalog/_Pedals.html

It costs over =E2=82=AC2000 but they're made to Boeing specs and evidently =
work really=20
well. They can also be mechanically linked which is useful for cockpit=20
builders.

Paul

Paul Surgeon wrote:

> If you want decent rudder pedals then you may want to look at the Flight Link 
> Jet Rudder Control Module from 
> http://www.aviationsimulation.co.uk/acatalog/_Pedals.html

Oh, they have a nice portofolio of sim-related controls and
instruments, if only the price tag ....  I wonder what a _real_ set of
Cessna pedaly would cost me if I build an appropriate frame on my own,

Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

On 13/03/06, Martin Spott <Martin.Spott@...> wrote:

> Oh, they have a nice portofolio of sim-related controls and
> instruments, if only the price tag ....  I wonder what a _real_ set of
> Cessna pedaly would cost me if I build an appropriate frame on my own,

That won't help you much -- the pedals themselves wouldn't give a
realistic feel without a cable system to the rudder (which would have
to have wind forces pushing it back to centre) and the bungee-sprung
steerable nosewheel.  If you're still interested, try Wentworth or one
of the other aircraft wrecking yards.


All the best,


David

--
http://www.megginson.com/

Hello Curt,

"Curtis L. Olson" wrote:

> I've added a very short entry in our events section on the FG web site.  
> Feel free to expand on that a little bit if you like and send me the 
> results.  Or if you are happy with the current text we can just leave it 
> alone.

Thank you for adding the notice. I know, my response is a bit late -
but I thought: Better late than never  :-)

I've been digging through lots of entries on my personal TODO for days
now and once I got back to the LinuxTag publicity task I'll send an
update to you. We expect our boot layout being presented to us this
monday - this will tell us wihch sort of display we will be able to
arrange.

Cheers,
	Martin.
-- 
 Unix _IS_ user friendly - it's just selective about who its friends are !
--------------------------------------------------------------------------