gramps

Le/The Lundi 18 D=E9cembre 2006 11:12, benny.malengier@... a =E9crit/w=
rote=A0:
> The poll on http://www.gramps-project.org asks what you would like in version 2.4
> I had an idea: support for genetics in GRAMPS.
>=20
> I liked that so much, I started a wiki entry:
> http://developers.gramps-project.org/tiki-index.php?page=3DGeneticsInGram=
ps
>=20
> It goes about Y-line, M-line filters, attributes for DNA markers, ...
Be carefull, in some country you are not allowed to create a DNA database.
Some crazy people could use this to select people, families, ...
It can be societies too like insurance : With the DNA, they could see your =
family
has such a genetic problem then they refuse to sign a contract with you.
I know perhaps i'm a little bit parano but remember 1945 and the genocid.

In france we are not allowed to generate databases containing the religion,=
 the DNA
or whatewer which could be used to discriminate people or families.
even if it is not exported and it must not, somebody could access to these =
informations.
There is laws for that and one organism (CNIL ) which control what you put =
in your database.

> I personally have two branches in my familyname, and have allways wondere=
d if
> there is a connection or not (research shows one branch starts with an ad=
option
> of a child), so Y-marker research is something I consider in the near fut=
ure.
>=20
> Please, if you have ideas about this, have done marker tests, ..., contri=
bute to
> the wiki. To make the developers see the use of adding this to GRAMPS, an=
d to
> know what exactly must be done to support genetics, information must be
> gathered. For those not wanting to contribute to the wiki, you may also p=
ost to
> me off course. Right now I only have real data about Y-line research.
>=20
> So if you have examples lying around, upload them to the wiki. If you fin=
d the
> present wiki lacking in details, edit the article.
>=20
> Genetics will become hot genealogy research in the near future, if it isn=
't
> already. I estimate that in 20 years we all do a DNA test and know how mu=
ch we
> are related to all other people who have done a test.
I agree with you, but it's very dangerous to save those information.

In conclusion, this subject  is very sensible.
Not to touch with a barge-pole !

>=20
> Benny
>=20

I agree in some ways with Serge. I think many of the issues he
mentions are real concerns for some people. So the first thing needed
before consideration of including any kind of genetic information is
an informed discussion of the moral/ legal and privacy issues
invloved.

I would never risk having it on my hard disk, I'm not so sure I'd risk
having a paper copy. The privacy issue is too big for me to risk
losing other peoples genetic data to potential identity thieves and so
on.

Duncan

Serge, Duncan,

there is clearly a lot of misunderstanding about genetics. It appears to be as
much a taboo as radioactivity :-)

Ok, some facts. The french legislation is clearly not well thought out. It
throws away the baby with the bathwater so to say. Let me explain:

1/The human DNA consists for large parts of unintelligible pieces, so called
junk DNA. I can list as much of that as I want, and not know a single thing
about a human being. So storing this gives no clues whatsover about 
fitness for
a job, eye color, ....
Precisely this junk is interesting for genealogy. Mutations on genes are
normally life-threatening, the foetus will die. Only rarely will this not be
the case. Therefore, you are not able to do genealogy research with genes. You
can use them only to map migrations and relation to ancient times (saxon
migration, roman occupation, ...). The junk DNA however is not used and codes
no genes. Mutations there have no influence on the life expectancy of a 
foetus,
and are therefore common, and hence can be used to do research over 
200-500 year
periods! So it allows to tell relation between branches of families, ....
In short, storing information of this junk DNA is harmless, and DYS 
markers are
precisely that.

2/I agree there is a privacy issues however. Suppose you do DYS study with
family members who agreed to participate, and discover your cousin cannot be
related to his own father (or worse, your son to you). You have prove at that
instance of a possibly very thorny situation. So privacy is an issue, however,
you can only do research on consenting people. Putting the result of the study
in GRAMPS changes nothing to the facts you gather from the study. The
legislation should forbid minors to participate in the study or forbid the
study, not forbid writing down the results.
Due to privacy issues it might be best to make these data private, no matter
what. So NEVER put it on a website report, ... . Only specialised reports,
written CONFIDENTIAL or so at the top.
Note that writing this information now in an attribute is not exactly save or
private either, and people will do this if not a specific option is given. We
enable people to do research, we cannot force them to do it right.

2/Other software (TMG) already includes some support for genetics I read. I
cannot check them out as I do not have them, nor am I interested. So the need
must exist with users. And they are always right. The old legislation tries to
make boundaries between electronic data and paper data, which for the new
generation clearly doesn't exist. For me having it written down on a paper or
having it written down on a PC makes no difference. It is knowledge that I
store. It must be from high-school that I have written more than 3 
sentences on
a paper. Of course, giving the option to store it, does not oblige 
users in any
way to also do it, and they should off course heed the national legislation. I
am sure no american is watching dvd's on their stock linux pc's ;-)

3/Gene data. Here a more grey area is reached. We should distinguish 
between two
types of genes: the ones for disease/trait research, the ones now used to
distinguish race groups.
3.1/Let me explain race first: the romans are distinguishable from the 
german or
celt population of ancient europe, so we can distinguish 3 races. Eg, the
typical roman person has the normal lactose inhibitor gene which activates in
adulthood, meaning they cannot drink cow milk, only eat hard cheese (if you
wonder why mozeralla should be made of buffalo milk, now you know). The dutch
have no problem with lactose as the gene stopping the ability to drink milk is
no longer activated, so they drink (lots of) milk and make Gouda type of
cheese. Is it a problem to store who is lactose intolerant in GRAMPS? Because
this is essentially data of DNA, one specific gene, you have or don't 
have. See
wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance
However, a very fun indicator telling something about your ancestors 
(let me be
clear: all europeans are related to all three races, you have genes of all 3,
so you only know with this info what you already should know, all of us are
related, so from a genealogy point of view, only interesting if you can follow
the lactose intolerance up in the branch.)

3.2/disease and trait genes. With disease I mean for example Haemophilia_B
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia_B), which is due to one gene. With
trait I would mean a gene which makes you more suscepteble to eg hearth
attacks. These a person can store in GRAMPS as an attribute, nobody is 
stopping
it, and it means you effectively store DNA data. This is not the core 
of GRAMPS,
and is less usefull for genealogy. However, it can add a touch to your 
database.
Let me explain: if you have a family member with Haemophilia_B, you can deduce
which of the ancestors is likely carrying the gene (you inherit it from your
mother who has 50% change of giving it to the children, only males are
effected), and it might shed light on why so little males are present in a
branch you are researching. This is usefull information.

Well, this post is long enough for now.
I hope I made my point that there are usefull aspects to DNA/trait 
data, and we
should not just neglect them, however DYS data and M-line data is clearly with
head and shoulders the most important for us. Users can enter DNA data already
today in notes/attributes, why not really support it. Privacy issues are
important, and GRAMPS should make sure nothing of this leaks to 
exports, is put
on non specific reports.

Benny

Quoting Duncan Lithgow <duncan@...>:

> I agree in some ways with Serge. I think many of the issues he
> mentions are real concerns for some people. So the first thing needed
> before consideration of including any kind of genetic information is
> an informed discussion of the moral/ legal and privacy issues
> invloved.
>
> I would never risk having it on my hard disk, I'm not so sure I'd risk
> having a paper copy. The privacy issue is too big for me to risk
> losing other peoples genetic data to potential identity thieves and so
> on.
>
> Duncan
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> Gramps-users@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>



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Fine about the How, but what about the "What With"?  Who pays the cost?  Who 
gets the consent of people who really can't be bothered?

Doug L.

On Tuesday 19 December 2006 20:43, benny.malengier@... wrote:
> Serge, Duncan,
>
> there is clearly a lot of misunderstanding about genetics. It appears to be
> as much a taboo as radioactivity :-)
>
> Ok, some facts. The french legislation is clearly not well thought out. It
> throws away the baby with the bathwater so to say. Let me explain:
>
> 1/The human DNA consists for large parts of unintelligible pieces, so
> called junk DNA. I can list as much of that as I want, and not know a
> single thing about a human being. So storing this gives no clues whatsover
> about fitness for
> a job, eye color, ....
> Precisely this junk is interesting for genealogy. Mutations on genes are
> normally life-threatening, the foetus will die. Only rarely will this not
> be the case. Therefore, you are not able to do genealogy research with
> genes. You can use them only to map migrations and relation to ancient
> times (saxon migration, roman occupation, ...). The junk DNA however is not
> used and codes no genes. Mutations there have no influence on the life
> expectancy of a foetus,
> and are therefore common, and hence can be used to do research over
> 200-500 year
> periods! So it allows to tell relation between branches of families, ....
> In short, storing information of this junk DNA is harmless, and DYS
> markers are
> precisely that.
>
> 2/I agree there is a privacy issues however. Suppose you do DYS study with
> family members who agreed to participate, and discover your cousin cannot
> be related to his own father (or worse, your son to you). You have prove at
> that instance of a possibly very thorny situation. So privacy is an issue,
> however, you can only do research on consenting people. Putting the result
> of the study in GRAMPS changes nothing to the facts you gather from the
> study. The legislation should forbid minors to participate in the study or
> forbid the study, not forbid writing down the results.
> Due to privacy issues it might be best to make these data private, no
> matter what. So NEVER put it on a website report, ... . Only specialised
> reports, written CONFIDENTIAL or so at the top.
> Note that writing this information now in an attribute is not exactly save
> or private either, and people will do this if not a specific option is
> given. We enable people to do research, we cannot force them to do it
> right.
>
> 2/Other software (TMG) already includes some support for genetics I read. I
> cannot check them out as I do not have them, nor am I interested. So the
> need must exist with users. And they are always right. The old legislation
> tries to make boundaries between electronic data and paper data, which for
> the new generation clearly doesn't exist. For me having it written down on
> a paper or having it written down on a PC makes no difference. It is
> knowledge that I store. It must be from high-school that I have written
> more than 3 sentences on
> a paper. Of course, giving the option to store it, does not oblige
> users in any
> way to also do it, and they should off course heed the national
> legislation. I am sure no american is watching dvd's on their stock linux
> pc's ;-)
>
> 3/Gene data. Here a more grey area is reached. We should distinguish
> between two
> types of genes: the ones for disease/trait research, the ones now used to
> distinguish race groups.
> 3.1/Let me explain race first: the romans are distinguishable from the
> german or
> celt population of ancient europe, so we can distinguish 3 races. Eg, the
> typical roman person has the normal lactose inhibitor gene which activates
> in adulthood, meaning they cannot drink cow milk, only eat hard cheese (if
> you wonder why mozeralla should be made of buffalo milk, now you know). The
> dutch have no problem with lactose as the gene stopping the ability to
> drink milk is no longer activated, so they drink (lots of) milk and make
> Gouda type of cheese. Is it a problem to store who is lactose intolerant in
> GRAMPS? Because this is essentially data of DNA, one specific gene, you
> have or don't have. See
> wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance
> However, a very fun indicator telling something about your ancestors
> (let me be
> clear: all europeans are related to all three races, you have genes of all
> 3, so you only know with this info what you already should know, all of us
> are related, so from a genealogy point of view, only interesting if you can
> follow the lactose intolerance up in the branch.)
>
> 3.2/disease and trait genes. With disease I mean for example Haemophilia_B
> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia_B), which is due to one gene.
> With trait I would mean a gene which makes you more suscepteble to eg
> hearth attacks. These a person can store in GRAMPS as an attribute, nobody
> is stopping
> it, and it means you effectively store DNA data. This is not the core
> of GRAMPS,
> and is less usefull for genealogy. However, it can add a touch to your
> database.
> Let me explain: if you have a family member with Haemophilia_B, you can
> deduce which of the ancestors is likely carrying the gene (you inherit it
> from your mother who has 50% change of giving it to the children, only
> males are effected), and it might shed light on why so little males are
> present in a branch you are researching. This is usefull information.
>
> Well, this post is long enough for now.
> I hope I made my point that there are usefull aspects to DNA/trait
> data, and we
> should not just neglect them, however DYS data and M-line data is clearly
> with head and shoulders the most important for us. Users can enter DNA data
> already today in notes/attributes, why not really support it. Privacy
> issues are important, and GRAMPS should make sure nothing of this leaks to
> exports, is put
> on non specific reports.
>
> Benny
>
> Quoting Duncan Lithgow <duncan@...>:
> > I agree in some ways with Serge. I think many of the issues he
> > mentions are real concerns for some people. So the first thing needed
> > before consideration of including any kind of genetic information is
> > an informed discussion of the moral/ legal and privacy issues
> > invloved.
> >
> > I would never risk having it on my hard disk, I'm not so sure I'd risk
> > having a paper copy. The privacy issue is too big for me to risk
> > losing other peoples genetic data to potential identity thieves and so
> > on.
> >
> > Duncan
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share
> > your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn
> > cash
> > http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> > _______________________________________________
> > Gramps-users mailing list
> > Gramps-users@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share
> your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> Gramps-users@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users

-- 
The most important thing in communication is to hear what isn't being said.
   - Peter E. Drucker.

??

I don't get what you mean. Pay what? Who can't be bothered?

People are doing this now. Even renowned genealogists. The practice is that
people researching their pedigree in different branches themselves 
submit their
genetic data in a group effort, *they* want to *know*.

For this to be really useful to everybody, people should submit anonymized
results on the web, like last-name, junk DNA values, for free. Now companies
let you pay for this, commercializing on your results. With free information,
commercial firms are avoided, and research of your genealogy is again a bit
more free. Knowledge should free, just like software. Privacy must be kept off
course.

Benny


Quoting Doug Laidlaw <laidlaws@...>:

> Fine about the How, but what about the "What With"?  Who pays the cost?  Who
> gets the consent of people who really can't be bothered?
>
> Doug L.
>
> On Tuesday 19 December 2006 20:43, benny.malengier@... wrote:
>> Serge, Duncan,
>>
>> there is clearly a lot of misunderstanding about genetics. It appears to be
>> as much a taboo as radioactivity :-)
>>
>> Ok, some facts. The french legislation is clearly not well thought out. It
>> throws away the baby with the bathwater so to say. Let me explain:
>>
>> 1/The human DNA consists for large parts of unintelligible pieces, so
>> called junk DNA. I can list as much of that as I want, and not know a
>> single thing about a human being. So storing this gives no clues whatsover
>> about fitness for
>> a job, eye color, ....
>> Precisely this junk is interesting for genealogy. Mutations on genes are
>> normally life-threatening, the foetus will die. Only rarely will this not
>> be the case. Therefore, you are not able to do genealogy research with
>> genes. You can use them only to map migrations and relation to ancient
>> times (saxon migration, roman occupation, ...). The junk DNA however is not
>> used and codes no genes. Mutations there have no influence on the life
>> expectancy of a foetus,
>> and are therefore common, and hence can be used to do research over
>> 200-500 year
>> periods! So it allows to tell relation between branches of families, ....
>> In short, storing information of this junk DNA is harmless, and DYS
>> markers are
>> precisely that.
>>
>> 2/I agree there is a privacy issues however. Suppose you do DYS study with
>> family members who agreed to participate, and discover your cousin cannot
>> be related to his own father (or worse, your son to you). You have prove at
>> that instance of a possibly very thorny situation. So privacy is an issue,
>> however, you can only do research on consenting people. Putting the result
>> of the study in GRAMPS changes nothing to the facts you gather from the
>> study. The legislation should forbid minors to participate in the study or
>> forbid the study, not forbid writing down the results.
>> Due to privacy issues it might be best to make these data private, no
>> matter what. So NEVER put it on a website report, ... . Only specialised
>> reports, written CONFIDENTIAL or so at the top.
>> Note that writing this information now in an attribute is not exactly save
>> or private either, and people will do this if not a specific option is
>> given. We enable people to do research, we cannot force them to do it
>> right.
>>
>> 2/Other software (TMG) already includes some support for genetics I read. I
>> cannot check them out as I do not have them, nor am I interested. So the
>> need must exist with users. And they are always right. The old legislation
>> tries to make boundaries between electronic data and paper data, which for
>> the new generation clearly doesn't exist. For me having it written down on
>> a paper or having it written down on a PC makes no difference. It is
>> knowledge that I store. It must be from high-school that I have written
>> more than 3 sentences on
>> a paper. Of course, giving the option to store it, does not oblige
>> users in any
>> way to also do it, and they should off course heed the national
>> legislation. I am sure no american is watching dvd's on their stock linux
>> pc's ;-)
>>
>> 3/Gene data. Here a more grey area is reached. We should distinguish
>> between two
>> types of genes: the ones for disease/trait research, the ones now used to
>> distinguish race groups.
>> 3.1/Let me explain race first: the romans are distinguishable from the
>> german or
>> celt population of ancient europe, so we can distinguish 3 races. Eg, the
>> typical roman person has the normal lactose inhibitor gene which activates
>> in adulthood, meaning they cannot drink cow milk, only eat hard cheese (if
>> you wonder why mozeralla should be made of buffalo milk, now you know). The
>> dutch have no problem with lactose as the gene stopping the ability to
>> drink milk is no longer activated, so they drink (lots of) milk and make
>> Gouda type of cheese. Is it a problem to store who is lactose intolerant in
>> GRAMPS? Because this is essentially data of DNA, one specific gene, you
>> have or don't have. See
>> wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance
>> However, a very fun indicator telling something about your ancestors
>> (let me be
>> clear: all europeans are related to all three races, you have genes of all
>> 3, so you only know with this info what you already should know, all of us
>> are related, so from a genealogy point of view, only interesting if you can
>> follow the lactose intolerance up in the branch.)
>>
>> 3.2/disease and trait genes. With disease I mean for example Haemophilia_B
>> (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia_B), which is due to one gene.
>> With trait I would mean a gene which makes you more suscepteble to eg
>> hearth attacks. These a person can store in GRAMPS as an attribute, nobody
>> is stopping
>> it, and it means you effectively store DNA data. This is not the core
>> of GRAMPS,
>> and is less usefull for genealogy. However, it can add a touch to your
>> database.
>> Let me explain: if you have a family member with Haemophilia_B, you can
>> deduce which of the ancestors is likely carrying the gene (you inherit it
>> from your mother who has 50% change of giving it to the children, only
>> males are effected), and it might shed light on why so little males are
>> present in a branch you are researching. This is usefull information.
>>
>> Well, this post is long enough for now.
>> I hope I made my point that there are usefull aspects to DNA/trait
>> data, and we
>> should not just neglect them, however DYS data and M-line data is clearly
>> with head and shoulders the most important for us. Users can enter DNA data
>> already today in notes/attributes, why not really support it. Privacy
>> issues are important, and GRAMPS should make sure nothing of this leaks to
>> exports, is put
>> on non specific reports.
>>
>> Benny
>>
>> Quoting Duncan Lithgow <duncan@...>:
>> > I agree in some ways with Serge. I think many of the issues he
>> > mentions are real concerns for some people. So the first thing needed
>> > before consideration of including any kind of genetic information is
>> > an informed discussion of the moral/ legal and privacy issues
>> > invloved.
>> >
>> > I would never risk having it on my hard disk, I'm not so sure I'd risk
>> > having a paper copy. The privacy issue is too big for me to risk
>> > losing other peoples genetic data to potential identity thieves and so
>> > on.
>> >
>> > Duncan
>> >
>> > -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> > Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>> > Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share
>> > your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn
>> > cash
>> > http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
>> > _______________________________________________
>> > Gramps-users mailing list
>> > Gramps-users@...
>> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------
>> This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
>>
>>
>> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
>> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share
>> your opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys - and earn cash
>> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
>> _______________________________________________
>> Gramps-users mailing list
>> Gramps-users@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>
> --
> The most important thing in communication is to hear what isn't being said.
>   - Peter E. Drucker.
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Take Surveys. Earn Cash. Influence the Future of IT
> Join SourceForge.net's Techsay panel and you'll get the chance to share your
> opinions on IT & business topics through brief surveys-and earn cash
> http://www.techsay.com/default.php?page=join.php&p=sourceforge&CID=DEVDEV
> _______________________________________________
> Gramps-users mailing list
> Gramps-users@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/gramps-users
>



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Sorry, I didn't see this question.  Yes, there was an article about it in 
Austn Family Tree Connections a few months back.

My experience with DNA sampling was as a lawyer, dealing with paternity cases.  
Here is what we had to do:

(a) A blood sample had to be carefully kept and transmitted in a vacuum flask.  
It was usable only within about 24 hours.  A saliva sample may be more 
stable.  I don't know.  If you collect your own sample from a relative, you 
can take care of any such requirements.

(b) Somebody has to provide the processing.  We had to use registered agents 
at several hundred dollars a throw.  From what I saw in AFTC magazine, 
matching on every point was possible.  That suggests a degree of 
sophistication.  Somebody has to buy the kit.  Apart from that, we had to 
follow strict identification procedures.  If your results are to prove 
anything, some degree of ID certification would be necessary, although not as 
much as we had to do.

Are you suggesting DNA "signatures" on a server like GPG signatures?

Doug.

On Tuesday 06 March 2007 20:14, benny.malengier@... wrote:
> ??
>
> I don't get what you mean. Pay what? Who can't be bothered?
>
> People are doing this now. Even renowned genealogists. The practice is that
> people researching their pedigree in different branches themselves
> submit their
> genetic data in a group effort, *they* want to *know*.
>
> For this to be really useful to everybody, people should submit anonymized
> results on the web, like last-name, junk DNA values, for free. Now
> companies let you pay for this, commercializing on your results. With free
> information, commercial firms are avoided, and research of your genealogy
> is again a bit more free. Knowledge should free, just like software.
> Privacy must be kept off course.
>
> Benny
>
> Quoting Doug Laidlaw <laidlaws@...>:
> > Fine about the How, but what about the "What With"?  Who pays the cost? 
> > Who gets the consent of people who really can't be bothered?
> >
> > Doug L.
> >
> > On Tuesday 19 December 2006 20:43, benny.malengier@... wrote:
> >> Serge, Duncan,
> >>
> >> there is clearly a lot of misunderstanding about genetics. It appears to
> >> be as much a taboo as radioactivity :-)
> >>
> >> Ok, some facts. The french legislation is clearly not well thought out.
> >> It throws away the baby with the bathwater so to say. Let me explain:
> >>
> >> 1/The human DNA consists for large parts of unintelligible pieces, so
> >> called junk DNA. I can list as much of that as I want, and not know a
> >> single thing about a human being. So storing this gives no clues
> >> whatsover about fitness for
> >> a job, eye color, ....
> >> Precisely this junk is interesting for genealogy. Mutations on genes are
> >> normally life-threatening, the foetus will die. Only rarely will this
> >> not be the case. Therefore, you are not able to do genealogy research
> >> with genes. You can use them only to map migrations and relation to
> >> ancient times (saxon migration, roman occupation, ...). The junk DNA
> >> however is not used and codes no genes. Mutations there have no
> >> influence on the life expectancy of a foetus,
> >> and are therefore common, and hence can be used to do research over
> >> 200-500 year
> >> periods! So it allows to tell relation between branches of families,
> >> .... In short, storing information of this junk DNA is harmless, and DYS
> >> markers are
> >> precisely that.
> >>
> >> 2/I agree there is a privacy issues however. Suppose you do DYS study
> >> with family members who agreed to participate, and discover your cousin
> >> cannot be related to his own father (or worse, your son to you). You
> >> have prove at that instance of a possibly very thorny situation. So
> >> privacy is an issue, however, you can only do research on consenting
> >> people. Putting the result of the study in GRAMPS changes nothing to the
> >> facts you gather from the study. The legislation should forbid minors to
> >> participate in the study or forbid the study, not forbid writing down
> >> the results.
> >> Due to privacy issues it might be best to make these data private, no
> >> matter what. So NEVER put it on a website report, ... . Only specialised
> >> reports, written CONFIDENTIAL or so at the top.
> >> Note that writing this information now in an attribute is not exactly
> >> save or private either, and people will do this if not a specific option
> >> is given. We enable people to do research, we cannot force them to do it
> >> right.
> >>
> >> 2/Other software (TMG) already includes some support for genetics I
> >> read. I cannot check them out as I do not have them, nor am I
> >> interested. So the need must exist with users. And they are always
> >> right. The old legislation tries to make boundaries between electronic
> >> data and paper data, which for the new generation clearly doesn't exist.
> >> For me having it written down on a paper or having it written down on a
> >> PC makes no difference. It is knowledge that I store. It must be from
> >> high-school that I have written more than 3 sentences on
> >> a paper. Of course, giving the option to store it, does not oblige
> >> users in any
> >> way to also do it, and they should off course heed the national
> >> legislation. I am sure no american is watching dvd's on their stock
> >> linux pc's ;-)
> >>
> >> 3/Gene data. Here a more grey area is reached. We should distinguish
> >> between two
> >> types of genes: the ones for disease/trait research, the ones now used
> >> to distinguish race groups.
> >> 3.1/Let me explain race first: the romans are distinguishable from the
> >> german or
> >> celt population of ancient europe, so we can distinguish 3 races. Eg,
> >> the typical roman person has the normal lactose inhibitor gene which
> >> activates in adulthood, meaning they cannot drink cow milk, only eat
> >> hard cheese (if you wonder why mozeralla should be made of buffalo milk,
> >> now you know). The dutch have no problem with lactose as the gene
> >> stopping the ability to drink milk is no longer activated, so they drink
> >> (lots of) milk and make Gouda type of cheese. Is it a problem to store
> >> who is lactose intolerant in GRAMPS? Because this is essentially data of
> >> DNA, one specific gene, you have or don't have. See
> >> wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lactose_intolerance
> >> However, a very fun indicator telling something about your ancestors
> >> (let me be
> >> clear: all europeans are related to all three races, you have genes of
> >> all 3, so you only know with this info what you already should know, all
> >> of us are related, so from a genealogy point of view, only interesting
> >> if you can follow the lactose intolerance up in the branch.)
> >>
> >> 3.2/disease and trait genes. With disease I mean for example
> >> Haemophilia_B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haemophilia_B), which is due
> >> to one gene. With trait I would mean a gene which makes you more
> >> suscepteble to eg hearth attacks. These a person can store in GRAMPS as
> >> an attribute, nobody is stopping
> >> it, and it means you effectively store DNA data. This is not the core
> >> of GRAMPS,
> >> and is less usefull for genealogy. However, it can add a touch to your
> >> database.
> >> Let me explain: if you have a family member with Haemophilia_B, you can
> >> deduce which of the ancestors is likely carrying the gene (you inherit
> >> it from your mother who has 50% change of giving it to the children,
> >> only males are effected), and it might shed light on why so little males
> >> are present in a branch you are researching. This is usefull
> >> information.
> >>
> >> Well, this post is long enough for now.
> >> I hope I made my point that there are usefull aspects to DNA/trait
> >> data, and we
> >> should not just neglect them, however DYS data and M-line data is
> >> clearly with head and shoulders the most important for us. Users can
> >> enter DNA data already today in notes/attributes, why not really support
> >> it. Privacy issues are important, and GRAMPS should make sure nothing of
> >> this leaks to exports, is put
> >> on non specific reports.
> >>
> >> Benny
> >>
> >> Quoting Duncan Lithgow <duncan@...>:
> >> > I agree in some ways with Serge. I think many of the issues he
> >> > mentions are real concerns for some people. So the first thing needed
> >> > before consideration of including any kind of genetic information is
> >> > an informed discussion of the moral/ legal and privacy issues
> >> > invloved.
> >> >
> >> > I would never risk having it on my hard disk, I'm not so sure I'd risk
> >> > having a paper copy. The privacy issue is too big for me to risk
> >> > losing other peoples genetic data to potential identity thieves and so
> >> > on.
> >> >
> >> > Duncan
> >> >
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