Pidgin

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006, Nathan Walp wrote:

<snip>

>> Sidenote: I'm thinking of doing some website news updates to hush up
>> people who are complaining that we're not providing any updates. We've
>> been keeping quiet about the icons with the intent to surprise
>> everyone with the new icons and the new name at the same time. What do
>> you think about telling people about this project and getting it in
>> svn sooner, rather than keeping it a secret?
>>
>> In either case, I should have a patch up for everyone later today.
>
> I like the idea of keeping the surprise.  Is there any chance we can get
> a beta4 out soon?  That would probably tide people over for a bit
> longer.  Also, I'd really like to have a beta4 win32 build to have here
> at work ;-)
>
> -Nathan

I agree, I think we need to keep the surprise, I think people will ask 
a bunch of questions about what the deal is with the purple circle 
(among other things). Also, I think new icons will help with the whole 
renaming process, make it seem like a more solid change.

I also think a bet4 would be a really good idea, what's the story with 
that? I think we were waiting for a couple things to finish but I don't 
remember what exactly.

 	-Etan

On 9/25/06, Etan Reisner <deryni@...> wrote:
> I agree, I think we need to keep the surprise, I think people will ask
> a bunch of questions about what the deal is with the purple circle
> (among other things). Also, I think new icons will help with the whole
> renaming process, make it seem like a more solid change.

Good points. We'll keep the icons quiet.

I'm about ready for beta4, I think. I have one or two more changes and
the networkmanager patch I want to get in. How does this weekend
sound?

I've updated http://gaim.sf.net/sean/status-sizes.png again with the
purple orb as well as login and logout icons.

-s.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 13:38:02 -0700, Sean Egan wrote
> On 9/25/06, Etan Reisner <deryni@...> wrote:
> > I agree, I think we need to keep the surprise, I think people will ask
> > a bunch of questions about what the deal is with the purple circle
> > (among other things). Also, I think new icons will help with the whole
> > renaming process, make it seem like a more solid change.
> 
> Good points. We'll keep the icons quiet.
> 
> I'm about ready for beta4, I think. I have one or two more changes 
> and the networkmanager patch I want to get in. How does this weekend 
> sound?
> 
> I've updated http://gaim.sf.net/sean/status-sizes.png again with the
> purple orb as well as login and logout icons.
> 
> -s.

I'm ready for beta4.  This weekend is fine by me (the sooner the better, in my
mind).  I'm not a big fan of one click to expand/collpase groups--it seems
different than every other application.

-Mark

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 12:46:33 -0700, Sean Egan wrote
> Sidenote: I'm thinking of doing some website news updates to hush up
> people who are complaining that we're not providing any updates. 
> We've been keeping quiet about the icons with the intent to surprise 
> everyone with the new icons and the new name at the same time. What 
> do you think about telling people about this project and getting it 
> in svn sooner, rather than keeping it a secret?

I'm against keeping anything a secret.  I'd rather have full disclosure about
the name change, icons changes, moving away from sourceforge, the nonprofit,
etc.  But I guess there might be legal reasons against telling people about
the name change?

That being said, I think it makes sense to tell people about the icons and the
name change at the same time.

-Mark

On 9/25/06, Mark Doliner <mark@...> wrote:
> I'm against keeping anything a secret.  I'd rather have full disclosure about
> the name change, icons changes, moving away from sourceforge, the nonprofit,
> etc.

Me too. It's a weird conflict between the completely transparent, open
development model we take part in, and the having to keep secrets, not
release anything, and not be able to tell people why.

> But I guess there might be legal reasons against telling people about
> the name change?

It's not a legal reason, per se. It's just that we have nothing on
paper yet. If we change our name before getting the settlment signed,
AOL has very little incentive to offer us anything. We've not put a
confidentiality clause in the agreement, and will fight if AOL decides
it wants one. This way, we'll be able to come out with everything all
at once.

-s.

On Mon, 25 Sep 2006 14:15:48 -0700, Sean Egan wrote
> > But I guess there might be legal reasons against telling people about
> > the name change?
> 
> It's not a legal reason, per se. It's just that we have nothing on
> paper yet. If we change our name before getting the settlment signed,
> AOL has very little incentive to offer us anything. We've not put a
> confidentiality clause in the agreement, and will fight if AOL 
> decides it wants one. This way, we'll be able to come out with 
> everything all at once.

How is that settlement going, anyhoo?

-Mark

On 9/25/06, Mark Doliner <mark@...> wrote:
> How is that settlement going, anyhoo?

Slowly, as usual. Unfortunately, we're not AOL's biggest priority, and
they seem to have some other legal issues they have to deal with. I'll
be sure to keep everyone updated as soon as I get word.

More updates:
Hylke made an MSN butterfly, and I updated
http://gaim.sf.net/sean/some-more-protocols.png
He also made some emblems: http://gaim.sf.net/sean/emblems.tar.gz .
The bot is awesome. The die is pretty cool, and some of the others are
still being worked out.
I'm adjusting well to the Purple Orb. Other variations of circles:
http://gaim.sf.net/sean/person2.png
http://gaim.sf.net/sean/person32.png

Re: clock vs notepad. What do you think of making a notepad the icon
for EXTENDED_AWAY and making AIM's "away" an EXTENDED_AWAY state? This
way the metaphor makes a bit more sense. I'm thinking of a little shop
with one of those "We'll be back in 15 minutes clock signs" versus a
shop with a "Gone Fishing" sign, or something. I don't know. In either
case, AIM users will be happy with a notepad and MSN users will be
happy with a clock.

In either case, I'm getting used to the clock. It doesn't take long.

Question: iChat and the clients it inspired use a 16x16ish icon in
what we consider Big List. What do you guys think of:
http://actsofvolition.com/images/screenshots/gaim/gaim-mock-16px.png
as opposed to
http://gaim.sf.net/sean/gaim4.png ?

It seems like iChat and its inspired clients all use variations of the
randomly colored orbs, and so it makes more sense for them to be
small, since 22x22 icons of green circle doesn't gain much over 16x16
pixels of green circle. Our icons tend to be more detailed so we can
benefit more from the additional 8. Still, my girlfriend is convinced
Gaim will be ugly as long as those additional 8 pixels are there.

Thoughts?

-s.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Sean Egan wrote:

<snip>

> More updates:
> Hylke made an MSN butterfly, and I updated
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/some-more-protocols.png
> He also made some emblems: http://gaim.sf.net/sean/emblems.tar.gz .
> The bot is awesome. The die is pretty cool, and some of the others are
> still being worked out.
> I'm adjusting well to the Purple Orb. Other variations of circles:
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/person2.png
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/person32.png

I don't think we want a smiley for our icon, to start with I just don't 
like it, but also it's a bit too close to our current Yahoo icon for my 
liking.

I really like the idea of putting something in the purple circle, but I 
don't like the + I think it's going to be too easily confused with an 
expander (that is you might think the + was an emblem of sorts). I was 
thinking maybe a 'P' for an M&Ms like feel.

> Re: clock vs notepad. What do you think of making a notepad the icon
> for EXTENDED_AWAY and making AIM's "away" an EXTENDED_AWAY state? This
> way the metaphor makes a bit more sense. I'm thinking of a little shop
> with one of those "We'll be back in 15 minutes clock signs" versus a
> shop with a "Gone Fishing" sign, or something. I don't know. In either
> case, AIM users will be happy with a notepad and MSN users will be
> happy with a clock.
>
> In either case, I'm getting used to the clock. It doesn't take long.

I think I like that idea.

> Question: iChat and the clients it inspired use a 16x16ish icon in
> what we consider Big List. What do you guys think of:
> http://actsofvolition.com/images/screenshots/gaim/gaim-mock-16px.png
> as opposed to
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/gaim4.png ?
>
> It seems like iChat and its inspired clients all use variations of the
> randomly colored orbs, and so it makes more sense for them to be
> small, since 22x22 icons of green circle doesn't gain much over 16x16
> pixels of green circle. Our icons tend to be more detailed so we can
> benefit more from the additional 8. Still, my girlfriend is convinced
> Gaim will be ugly as long as those additional 8 pixels are there.
>
> Thoughts?
>
> -s.

I think if we were going to go with some sort of small icon in the big 
list we would need the icon to take up exactly the size of the top row 
of text, this may or may not be the case I can't tell from the shot. 
Other than that I think I like the extra color/stuff with the large 
icons, though perhaps a middle size might be something to consider.

 	-Etan

On 9/26/06, Etan Reisner <deryni@...> wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Sean Egan wrote:
>
> <snip>
>
> > More updates:
> > Hylke made an MSN butterfly, and I updated
> > http://gaim.sf.net/sean/some-more-protocols.png
> > He also made some emblems: http://gaim.sf.net/sean/emblems.tar.gz .
> > The bot is awesome. The die is pretty cool, and some of the others are
> > still being worked out.
> > I'm adjusting well to the Purple Orb. Other variations of circles:
> > http://gaim.sf.net/sean/person2.png
> > http://gaim.sf.net/sean/person32.png
>
> I don't think we want a smiley for our icon, to start with I just don't
> like it, but also it's a bit too close to our current Yahoo icon for my
> liking.
>
> I really like the idea of putting something in the purple circle, but I
> don't like the + I think it's going to be too easily confused with an
> expander (that is you might think the + was an emblem of sorts). I was
> thinking maybe a 'P' for an M&Ms like feel.

I agree here...too close to the Yahoo icon. I don't mind the "+", but
yeah...it seems like an expander. (side topic) Would we want
differentiation between normal buddies and buddies you can expand?

>
> > Re: clock vs notepad. What do you think of making a notepad the icon
> > for EXTENDED_AWAY and making AIM's "away" an EXTENDED_AWAY state? This
> > way the metaphor makes a bit more sense. I'm thinking of a little shop
> > with one of those "We'll be back in 15 minutes clock signs" versus a
> > shop with a "Gone Fishing" sign, or something. I don't know. In either
> > case, AIM users will be happy with a notepad and MSN users will be
> > happy with a clock.
> >
> > In either case, I'm getting used to the clock. It doesn't take long.
>
> I think I like that idea.

Ditto..

>
> > Question: iChat and the clients it inspired use a 16x16ish icon in
> > what we consider Big List. What do you guys think of:
> > http://actsofvolition.com/images/screenshots/gaim/gaim-mock-16px.png
> > as opposed to
> > http://gaim.sf.net/sean/gaim4.png ?
> >
> > It seems like iChat and its inspired clients all use variations of the
> > randomly colored orbs, and so it makes more sense for them to be
> > small, since 22x22 icons of green circle doesn't gain much over 16x16
> > pixels of green circle. Our icons tend to be more detailed so we can
> > benefit more from the additional 8. Still, my girlfriend is convinced
> > Gaim will be ugly as long as those additional 8 pixels are there.
> >
> > Thoughts?
> >
> > -s.
>
> I think if we were going to go with some sort of small icon in the big
> list we would need the icon to take up exactly the size of the top row
> of text, this may or may not be the case I can't tell from the shot.
> Other than that I think I like the extra color/stuff with the large
> icons, though perhaps a middle size might be something to consider.
>
>         -Etan

What about vertically centering the 16x16 icon with the buddy? So that
it is linked to the two lines, between them visually. Right now it
feels off, but I think that's because it's off from what I'd consider
"center" for icons in the big list.

-Megan

On 9/26/06, Megan Schneider <caelum@...> wrote:
> On 9/26/06, Etan Reisner <deryni@...> wrote:
> > On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Sean Egan wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> >
> > > More updates:
> > > Hylke made an MSN butterfly, and I updated
> > > http://gaim.sf.net/sean/some-more-protocols.png
> > > He also made some emblems: http://gaim.sf.net/sean/emblems.tar.gz .
> > > The bot is awesome. The die is pretty cool, and some of the others are
> > > still being worked out.
> > > I'm adjusting well to the Purple Orb. Other variations of circles:
> > > http://gaim.sf.net/sean/person2.png
> > > http://gaim.sf.net/sean/person32.png
> >
> > I don't think we want a smiley for our icon, to start with I just don't
> > like it, but also it's a bit too close to our current Yahoo icon for my
> > liking.
> >
> > I really like the idea of putting something in the purple circle, but I
> > don't like the + I think it's going to be too easily confused with an
> > expander (that is you might think the + was an emblem of sorts). I was
> > thinking maybe a 'P' for an M&Ms like feel.
>
> I agree here...too close to the Yahoo icon. I don't mind the "+", but
> yeah...it seems like an expander. (side topic) Would we want
> differentiation between normal buddies and buddies you can expand?
>
> >
> > > Re: clock vs notepad. What do you think of making a notepad the icon
> > > for EXTENDED_AWAY and making AIM's "away" an EXTENDED_AWAY state? This
> > > way the metaphor makes a bit more sense. I'm thinking of a little shop
> > > with one of those "We'll be back in 15 minutes clock signs" versus a
> > > shop with a "Gone Fishing" sign, or something. I don't know. In either
> > > case, AIM users will be happy with a notepad and MSN users will be
> > > happy with a clock.
> > >
> > > In either case, I'm getting used to the clock. It doesn't take long.
> >
> > I think I like that idea.
>
> Ditto..
>
> >
> > > Question: iChat and the clients it inspired use a 16x16ish icon in
> > > what we consider Big List. What do you guys think of:
> > > http://actsofvolition.com/images/screenshots/gaim/gaim-mock-16px.png
> > > as opposed to
> > > http://gaim.sf.net/sean/gaim4.png ?
> > >
> > > It seems like iChat and its inspired clients all use variations of the
> > > randomly colored orbs, and so it makes more sense for them to be
> > > small, since 22x22 icons of green circle doesn't gain much over 16x16
> > > pixels of green circle. Our icons tend to be more detailed so we can
> > > benefit more from the additional 8. Still, my girlfriend is convinced
> > > Gaim will be ugly as long as those additional 8 pixels are there.
> > >
> > > Thoughts?
> > >
> > > -s.
> >
> > I think if we were going to go with some sort of small icon in the big
> > list we would need the icon to take up exactly the size of the top row
> > of text, this may or may not be the case I can't tell from the shot.
> > Other than that I think I like the extra color/stuff with the large
> > icons, though perhaps a middle size might be something to consider.
> >
> >         -Etan
>
> What about vertically centering the 16x16 icon with the buddy? So that
> it is linked to the two lines, between them visually. Right now it
> feels off, but I think that's because it's off from what I'd consider
> "center" for icons in the big list.
>
> -Megan
>

Or a slight alternate - make it so the top of the icon is even with
the top of the text. Not necessarily centered between the lines, but
dropped down a little from its current position.

-M

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006, Megan Schneider wrote:
> What about vertically centering the 16x16 icon with the buddy? So that
> it is linked to the two lines, between them visually. Right now it
> feels off, but I think that's because it's off from what I'd consider
> "center" for icons in the big list.
>
> -Megan

I was intentionally staying away from centering it, since having it 
between the rows 'feels' like it would look like it was just 'hanging' 
there, but without seeing it I really can't say. The idea with moving it 
to the top was to keep the same basic layout between the big and small 
lists, and to keep the buddy name and the icon/status linked. The 
message is sort of a side property of the state (though an important 
one), but the icon really belongs to the person.

 	-Etan

On 9/26/06, Etan Reisner <deryni@...> wrote:
> I think if we were going to go with some sort of small icon in the big
> list we would need the icon to take up exactly the size of the top row
> of text, this may or may not be the case I can't tell from the shot.
> Other than that I think I like the extra color/stuff with the large
> icons, though perhaps a middle size might be something to consider.

Currently we are using a "middle size." In svn we use 30x30. In my
tree, the tooltips are 32x32, and the status icons are 22x22. Small
List are 16x16. These are the three standard Tango icon sizes (that
and 48x48, which we'll only use in dialogs).

-s.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:30:12 -0700, Sean Egan wrote
> Re: clock vs notepad. What do you think of making a notepad the icon
> for EXTENDED_AWAY and making AIM's "away" an EXTENDED_AWAY state? 
> This way the metaphor makes a bit more sense. I'm thinking of a 
> little shop with one of those "We'll be back in 15 minutes clock 
> signs" versus a shop with a "Gone Fishing" sign, or something. I 
> don't know. In either case, AIM users will be happy with a notepad 
> and MSN users will be happy with a clock.

That's an amazing idea.  I think we should do it.  Unless someone discovers
some kind of crazy complication.

> Question: iChat and the clients it inspired use a 16x16ish icon in
> what we consider Big List. What do you guys think of:
> http://actsofvolition.com/images/screenshots/gaim/gaim-mock-16px.png
> as opposed to
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/gaim4.png ?
> 
> It seems like iChat and its inspired clients all use variations of 
> the randomly colored orbs, and so it makes more sense for them to be 
> small, since 22x22 icons of green circle doesn't gain much over 
> 16x16 pixels of green circle. Our icons tend to be more detailed so 
> we can benefit more from the additional 8. Still, my girlfriend is convinced
> Gaim will be ugly as long as those additional 8 pixels are there.

Doesn't matter much to me either way.  The 16x16 icon screen shot DOES appeal
to me more.

-Mark

On 9/26/06, Mark Doliner <mark@...> wrote:
> That's an amazing idea.  I think we should do it.  Unless someone discovers
> some kind of crazy complication.

http://gaim.sf.net/sean/xa.png
http://gaim.sf.net/sean/xasmall.png

xasmall.png sucks. He's going to redo that icon tomorrow.

> Doesn't matter much to me either way.  The 16x16 icon screen shot DOES appeal
> to me more.

I'll try coding that up too and see what we like.

-s.

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 15:58:36 -0700, Sean Egan wrote
> On 9/26/06, Mark Doliner <mark@...> wrote:
> > That's an amazing idea.  I think we should do it.  Unless someone discovers
> > some kind of crazy complication.
> 
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/xa.png
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/xasmall.png

The thumbtack in the buddy list in xa.png is a bit hard to distinguish (it
looks good in the tooltip, though).  Aside from that, the icon is dead sexy.

-Mark

On Tue, 2006-09-26 at 18:00 -0500, Mark Doliner wrote:
> On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:30:12 -0700, Sean Egan wrote
> > Re: clock vs notepad. What do you think of making a notepad the icon
> > for EXTENDED_AWAY and making AIM's "away" an EXTENDED_AWAY state?=20
>=20
> That's an amazing idea.  I think we should do it.  Unless someone discove=
rs
> some kind of crazy complication.

Will selecting "Away" from the status selector work in this case?

Richard

On 9/26/06, Richard Laager <rlaager@...> wrote:
> Will selecting "Away" from the status selector work in this case?

We'll MAKE it work in this case.

Steven Garrity gimped up some green status icons:


http://actsofvolition.com/images/screenshots/gaim/xa-green.png
http://actsofvolition.com/images/screenshots/gaim/xasmall-green.png
not the right shade of green, but I do think green is better than purple
as it has SOME meaning

On Tue, Sep 26, 2006 at 03:58:36PM -0700, Sean Egan wrote:
> On 9/26/06, Mark Doliner <mark@...> wrote:
> > That's an amazing idea.  I think we should do it.  Unless someone discovers
> > some kind of crazy complication.
> 
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/xa.png
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/xasmall.png
> 
> xasmall.png sucks. He's going to redo that icon tomorrow.
> 

I agree, xasmall.png sucks.  I like the bigger one though.

luke

Did we ever discuss using a Gaim dude or a Prpl dude for available?

What will we be using the Prpl Pidgin Dude for? And were we leaving him 
a Dude, or making him a Bird?

It has also crossed my mind to just use the user's buddy icon as the 
available status icon. But I then immediately thought that would suck 
because it doesn't look available, or the same for everyone. Although we 
could put some weird, amazing available frame around it. But then the 
buddy icon is still there twice, which would be weird.

--Tim

This will  probably bounce too, but: http://gaim.sf.net/sean/blist16.png

-s.

On 9/30/06, Sean Egan <seanegan@...> wrote:
> This started bouncing, so I'm going to try resending it:
>
> Also see: http://gaim.sf.net/sean/emblem.png
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Sean Egan <seanegan@...>
> Date: Sep 28, 2006 2:25 PM
> Subject: Re: [Gaim-cabal] Status icons again
> To: Luke Schierer <lschiere@...>
> Cc: gaim-cabal@...
>
>
> Today:
>
> The purple orb becomes green. Steven Garrity pointed out that, even in
> clients that don't use "boring colored circles" for stauts, "green
> light," seems a fairly universal symbol for "available."
>
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/morestatus.png
>
> New small extended away post-it icon:
>
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/morestatussmall.png
>
> And new dialog icons. I think the idea is great:
>
> http://gaim.sf.net/sean/dialogs2.png
>
> -s.
>

This started bouncing, so I'm going to try resending it:

Also see: http://gaim.sf.net/emblem.png

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Sean Egan <seanegan@...>
Date: Sep 28, 2006 2:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Gaim-cabal] Status icons again
To: Luke Schierer <lschiere@...>
Cc: gaim-cabal@...


Today:

The purple orb becomes green. Steven Garrity pointed out that, even in
clients that don't use "boring colored circles" for stauts, "green
light," seems a fairly universal symbol for "available."

http://gaim.sf.net/sean/morestatus.png

New small extended away post-it icon:

http://gaim.sf.net/sean/morestatussmall.png

And new dialog icons. I think the idea is great:

http://gaim.sf.net/sean/dialogs2.png

-s.

On 9/30/06, Tim Ringenbach <omarvo@...> wrote:
> Did we ever discuss using a Gaim dude or a Prpl dude for available?

Replying now, since gmail-to-sourceforge has stopped bouncing.

The Gaim dude will presumingly not exist in Pidgin, so that doesn't
work. I'm really liking the green orb, right now. I don't know if my
other mail ever made it through, but
http://gaim.sf.net/sean/centered.png is the current state of the art.
I've also sent http://gaim.sf.net/sean/dialogs.png

> What will we be using the Prpl Pidgin Dude for? And were we leaving him
> a Dude, or making him a Bird?

I don't know what Prpl Pidgin Dude means. If you're asking about
logos, we're working with this guy: http://38one.com/

> It has also crossed my mind to just use the user's buddy icon as the
> available status icon. But I then immediately thought that would suck
> because it doesn't look available, or the same for everyone. Although we
> could put some weird, amazing available frame around it. But then the
> buddy icon is still there twice, which would be weird.

Yeah, people have asked about using buddy icons in place of protocol
icons in our current UI. I'm dead against putting anything other than
buddy icons in the buddy icon column, as it would kill scannability.

-s.

Some souce to try out:
http://gaim.sf.net/sean/gaim-2.0.0dev.tar.bz2
http://gaim.sf.net/sean/gaim-2.0.0-0.beta4.i386.rpm

-s.