Widelands

I am for keeping GPL license.
In fact i see no problem - if that guy ports widelands to iphone he 
*must* free his changes in source code and so we would be able to build 
our own version with his changes. So if he wants to earn money with it - 
well we will beat him with a free version based upon his patch ;).

That's it - nobody should earn money from work we did for a *free* game 
- at least that's my opinion.

Am 16.04.2010 17:35, schrieb Holger Rapp:
> Hello people,
>
> we just had someone in the IRC chat who plans to port widelands to the iPhone/iPad. I doubt that the current version will run on the iPhone or iPad due to the software renderer, but one day this will be possible. This brings up one serious issue: The GPL allows people to take widelands, build a binary and sell it as long as they offer the source code of their changes. This was never an issue on the PC because there was always the original project who gave the game away for free.
>
> With the iPad/iPhone it is different: the only real way to deploy there is via the AppStore. So anyone who ports widelands to there will have a monopoly and make money with our work without much we can do. I am fine with selling widelands on the AppStore, but I would be very angry if someone makes money for his personal benefit with our combined work efforts. The problem is how to handle this properly? I see two approaches:
>
> 1) Make an 'official' port of widelands for the iphone, give it away for free or for very little amounts of money. Problem is that we have no know how and the guy in IRC seemed not too happy with this approach as I have the impression that he wants to make money. So we had to lift this in another way.
>
> 2) Relicense to forbid derivative works. This would leave us the possibilities to sell widelands, given that we get the permission of all contributors. But no one else could. I think the Creative Commons allows for something like that.
>
> 3) Relicense to forbid commercialisation. This would not allow anyone to make money with widelands. We or someone else could still bring it to the appstore but would have to give it away for free.
>
> Note that relicensing is hard to do and may not be possible at all, I have no idea.
>
> Comments?
> Holger
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
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> _______________________________________________
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> Widelands-public@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/widelands-public
>
>

Hi,

Relicensing is possible but can be really hard. I some contributor does
not give the permission or a contributor can not be found it is possible
that large amount of code have to be rewritten to change license.

But nevertheless for me only point 1is a real option. The other ones are
against my understanding of free software. The GPL is already relative
restrictive. I am against changing to an even more restrictive license.
This is one part of free software. Other people can do a fork and can
even sell a copy of widelands. If we want to prevent other to earn money
with our work we have to do the step on our own. I would even help with
porting widelands but I have no iphone. I work on widelands to have a
nice game and not making money or preventing other from making money.

Timo



Holger Rapp wrote:
> Hello people, 
>
> we just had someone in the IRC chat who plans to port widelands to the iPhone/iPad. I doubt that the current version will run on the iPhone or iPad due to the software renderer, but one day this will be possible. This brings up one serious issue: The GPL allows people to take widelands, build a binary and sell it as long as they offer the source code of their changes. This was never an issue on the PC because there was always the original project who gave the game away for free. 
>
> With the iPad/iPhone it is different: the only real way to deploy there is via the AppStore. So anyone who ports widelands to there will have a monopoly and make money with our work without much we can do. I am fine with selling widelands on the AppStore, but I would be very angry if someone makes money for his personal benefit with our combined work efforts. The problem is how to handle this properly? I see two approaches:
>
> 1) Make an 'official' port of widelands for the iphone, give it away for free or for very little amounts of money. Problem is that we have no know how and the guy in IRC seemed not too happy with this approach as I have the impression that he wants to make money. So we had to lift this in another way. 
>
> 2) Relicense to forbid derivative works. This would leave us the possibilities to sell widelands, given that we get the permission of all contributors. But no one else could. I think the Creative Commons allows for something like that. 
>
> 3) Relicense to forbid commercialisation. This would not allow anyone to make money with widelands. We or someone else could still bring it to the appstore but would have to give it away for free.
>
> Note that relicensing is hard to do and may not be possible at all, I have no idea. 
>
> Comments?
> Holger
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download Intel® Parallel Studio Eval
> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
> _______________________________________________
> Widelands-public mailing list
> Widelands-public@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/widelands-public
>
>

since he would have to give all of the source code with the app we
could offer a free version. right now anyone could already sell
widelands cd's or anything like that. (just like timo mentioned).
also i would be against a more restrictive license. i like the GPL
because it prevents people from just waking off with the work i did.
If the license would be changed to something where SirVer (or anyone
else) would have control over who can or can't make derivative work it
feels like they would have control how i could use my own code in say
another project.

also if anyone thinks he can make money from an iphone app let them
try. i doubt he would make any serious money.


On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Timo <timowi.lists@...> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Relicensing is possible but can be really hard. I some contributor does
> not give the permission or a contributor can not be found it is possible
> that large amount of code have to be rewritten to change license.
>
> But nevertheless for me only point 1is a real option. The other ones are
> against my understanding of free software. The GPL is already relative
> restrictive. I am against changing to an even more restrictive license.
> This is one part of free software. Other people can do a fork and can
> even sell a copy of widelands. If we want to prevent other to earn money
> with our work we have to do the step on our own. I would even help with
> porting widelands but I have no iphone. I work on widelands to have a
> nice game and not making money or preventing other from making money.
>
> Timo
>
>
>
> Holger Rapp wrote:
>> Hello people,
>>
>> we just had someone in the IRC chat who plans to port widelands to the iPhone/iPad. I doubt that the current version will run on the iPhone or iPad due to the software renderer, but one day this will be possible. This brings up one serious issue: The GPL allows people to take widelands, build a binary and sell it as long as they offer the source code of their changes. This was never an issue on the PC because there was always the original project who gave the game away for free.
>>
>> With the iPad/iPhone it is different: the only real way to deploy there is via the AppStore. So anyone who ports widelands to there will have a monopoly and make money with our work without much we can do. I am fine with selling widelands on the AppStore, but I would be very angry if someone makes money for his personal benefit with our combined work efforts. The problem is how to handle this properly? I see two approaches:
>>
>> 1) Make an 'official' port of widelands for the iphone, give it away for free or for very little amounts of money. Problem is that we have no know how and the guy in IRC seemed not too happy with this approach as I have the impression that he wants to make money. So we had to lift this in another way.
>>
>> 2) Relicense to forbid derivative works. This would leave us the possibilities to sell widelands, given that we get the permission of all contributors. But no one else could. I think the Creative Commons allows for something like that.
>>
>> 3) Relicense to forbid commercialisation. This would not allow anyone to make money with widelands. We or someone else could still bring it to the appstore but would have to give it away for free.
>>
>> Note that relicensing is hard to do and may not be possible at all, I have no idea.
>>
>> Comments?
>> Holger
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Download Intel&#174; Parallel Studio Eval
>> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
>> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
>> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> Widelands-public mailing list
>> Widelands-public@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/widelands-public
>>
>>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download Intel&#174; Parallel Studio Eval
> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
> _______________________________________________
> Widelands-public mailing list
> Widelands-public@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/widelands-public
>

If relicensing, then only to GPL-V3.
Voices in the net say this is not compatible with AppStore conditions.

In this case, since Build15 is released under GPL-V2, we would have to re-license now and release a Build16 very soon with lots of improvements, to make the ipod package oldfashioned.

Other than that, re-releasing his built app for free might be a good way.

Since he didn't disclose how much money he thinks to charge, and how much of it he's offering for Widelands; and since he will never offer to disclose the AppStore Accounts (how much he really earns), I don't see a base for working together.

On the other hand, once that the GGZ stuff is deeply introduced into Widelands - will GGZ run on iPhone? :-)

-------- Original-Nachricht --------
> Datum: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:27:12 +0200
> Von: Victor Pelt <victor.pelt@...>
> An: widelands-public@...
> Betreff: Re: [Widelands-public] Licensing issues

> since he would have to give all of the source code with the app we
> could offer a free version. right now anyone could already sell
> widelands cd's or anything like that. (just like timo mentioned).
> also i would be against a more restrictive license. i like the GPL
> because it prevents people from just waking off with the work i did.
> If the license would be changed to something where SirVer (or anyone
> else) would have control over who can or can't make derivative work it
> feels like they would have control how i could use my own code in say
> another project.
> 
> also if anyone thinks he can make money from an iphone app let them
> try. i doubt he would make any serious money.
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Timo <timowi.lists@...> wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Relicensing is possible but can be really hard. I some contributor does
> > not give the permission or a contributor can not be found it is possible
> > that large amount of code have to be rewritten to change license.
> >
> > But nevertheless for me only point 1is a real option. The other ones are
> > against my understanding of free software. The GPL is already relative
> > restrictive. I am against changing to an even more restrictive license.
> > This is one part of free software. Other people can do a fork and can
> > even sell a copy of widelands. If we want to prevent other to earn money
> > with our work we have to do the step on our own. I would even help with
> > porting widelands but I have no iphone. I work on widelands to have a
> > nice game and not making money or preventing other from making money.
> >
> > Timo
> >
> >
> >
> > Holger Rapp wrote:
> >> Hello people,
> >>
> >> we just had someone in the IRC chat who plans to port widelands to the
> iPhone/iPad. I doubt that the current version will run on the iPhone or
> iPad due to the software renderer, but one day this will be possible. This
> brings up one serious issue: The GPL allows people to take widelands, build a
> binary and sell it as long as they offer the source code of their changes.
> This was never an issue on the PC because there was always the original
> project who gave the game away for free.
> >>
> >> With the iPad/iPhone it is different: the only real way to deploy there
> is via the AppStore. So anyone who ports widelands to there will have a
> monopoly and make money with our work without much we can do. I am fine with
> selling widelands on the AppStore, but I would be very angry if someone
> makes money for his personal benefit with our combined work efforts. The
> problem is how to handle this properly? I see two approaches:
> >>
> >> 1) Make an 'official' port of widelands for the iphone, give it away
> for free or for very little amounts of money. Problem is that we have no know
> how and the guy in IRC seemed not too happy with this approach as I have
> the impression that he wants to make money. So we had to lift this in
> another way.
> >>
> >> 2) Relicense to forbid derivative works. This would leave us the
> possibilities to sell widelands, given that we get the permission of all
> contributors. But no one else could. I think the Creative Commons allows for
> something like that.
> >>
> >> 3) Relicense to forbid commercialisation. This would not allow anyone
> to make money with widelands. We or someone else could still bring it to the
> appstore but would have to give it away for free.
> >>
> >> Note that relicensing is hard to do and may not be possible at all, I
> have no idea.
> >>
> >> Comments?
> >> Holger
> >>
> >>
> >>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >> Download Intel&#174; Parallel Studio Eval
> >> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> >> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
> >> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
> >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
> >> _______________________________________________
> >> Widelands-public mailing list
> >> Widelands-public@...
> >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/widelands-public
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > Download Intel&#174; Parallel Studio Eval
> > Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> > proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
> > See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
> > http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
> > _______________________________________________
> > Widelands-public mailing list
> > Widelands-public@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/widelands-public
> >
> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download Intel&#174; Parallel Studio Eval
> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
> _______________________________________________
> Widelands-public mailing list
> Widelands-public@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/widelands-public

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Hi,
> 
> If relicensing, then only to GPL-V3.
> Voices in the net say this is not compatible with AppStore conditions.
I didn't find anything in the GPL v3 which seemed to me to be not compatible in any way to the appstore. But I am not a lawyer (IANAL). Also, this would make it impossible for us to release a version for the iPad/iPhone.

> 
> In this case, since Build15 is released under GPL-V2, we would have to re-license now and release a Build16 very soon with lots of improvements, to make the ipod package oldfashioned.
Let's wait and see. Currently technical limitations makes a port unlikely. I do not know about the iPad though, it is likely powerful enough to render widelands, especially when we switch to OpenGL rendering. Besides, build 16 will contain Lua which will mean that all future missions can not be ported to the widelands if we change the license. Also the OpenGL port will be a big thing for an iphone port, so this should be under another license as well.

> 
> Other than that, re-releasing his built app for free might be a good way.
Reading through the wesnoth thread discussing this issue [1], they were unsure if apple would allow a second app with the same content for free in the appstore. So even if we *could* give a free version to users, the closedness of the distribution model might make it impossible. That said: wesnoth has an official port to the phone, the porter sells it for ~1$ and contributes a big amount back. Not all and he doesn't offer numbers afaik. He stated that he is number #1 RPG in 6 countries, so do not be mistaken, we talk thousands of dollars here...

Interesting to note is that Dave, the lead developer encourages ports to other devices and also people making money with this. For me it seems to be completely wrong, "Free" software should be "free" software in my oppinion and it graves me deeply that someone wants to monetize from the joint efforts of others. 

I can also understand Victor that given the Right to distribute widelands in any way should not reside with myself, I'd just like to have a line added to our license: GPL + no monetizing except for donations. Does someone know a lawyer? 

> 
> 
> On the other hand, once that the GGZ stuff is deeply introduced into Widelands - will GGZ run on iPhone? :-)
The battle for wesnoth uses openfeint integration, which is roughly the same as GGZ but for the iphone platform. Apple will also bring a new Gamers network to the iphone in summer, so GGZ and our metaserver would not be needed/wanted on the iphone.

[1] http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=26193

This is all so very frustrating for me. I heavily dislike making politics, but I feel it unfair that someone who was not willing to pull widelands from the craddle is now willing to invest a bit of work to make serious money. 

Holger


> 
> -------- Original-Nachricht --------
>> Datum: Fri, 16 Apr 2010 18:27:12 +0200
>> Von: Victor Pelt <victor.pelt@...>
>> An: widelands-public@...
>> Betreff: Re: [Widelands-public] Licensing issues
> 
>> since he would have to give all of the source code with the app we
>> could offer a free version. right now anyone could already sell
>> widelands cd's or anything like that. (just like timo mentioned).
>> also i would be against a more restrictive license. i like the GPL
>> because it prevents people from just waking off with the work i did.
>> If the license would be changed to something where SirVer (or anyone
>> else) would have control over who can or can't make derivative work it
>> feels like they would have control how i could use my own code in say
>> another project.
>> 
>> also if anyone thinks he can make money from an iphone app let them
>> try. i doubt he would make any serious money.
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Apr 16, 2010 at 5:46 PM, Timo <timowi.lists@...> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>> 
>>> Relicensing is possible but can be really hard. I some contributor does
>>> not give the permission or a contributor can not be found it is possible
>>> that large amount of code have to be rewritten to change license.
>>> 
>>> But nevertheless for me only point 1is a real option. The other ones are
>>> against my understanding of free software. The GPL is already relative
>>> restrictive. I am against changing to an even more restrictive license.
>>> This is one part of free software. Other people can do a fork and can
>>> even sell a copy of widelands. If we want to prevent other to earn money
>>> with our work we have to do the step on our own. I would even help with
>>> porting widelands but I have no iphone. I work on widelands to have a
>>> nice game and not making money or preventing other from making money.
>>> 
>>> Timo
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Holger Rapp wrote:
>>>> Hello people,
>>>> 
>>>> we just had someone in the IRC chat who plans to port widelands to the
>> iPhone/iPad. I doubt that the current version will run on the iPhone or
>> iPad due to the software renderer, but one day this will be possible. This
>> brings up one serious issue: The GPL allows people to take widelands, build a
>> binary and sell it as long as they offer the source code of their changes.
>> This was never an issue on the PC because there was always the original
>> project who gave the game away for free.
>>>> 
>>>> With the iPad/iPhone it is different: the only real way to deploy there
>> is via the AppStore. So anyone who ports widelands to there will have a
>> monopoly and make money with our work without much we can do. I am fine with
>> selling widelands on the AppStore, but I would be very angry if someone
>> makes money for his personal benefit with our combined work efforts. The
>> problem is how to handle this properly? I see two approaches:
>>>> 
>>>> 1) Make an 'official' port of widelands for the iphone, give it away
>> for free or for very little amounts of money. Problem is that we have no know
>> how and the guy in IRC seemed not too happy with this approach as I have
>> the impression that he wants to make money. So we had to lift this in
>> another way.
>>>> 
>>>> 2) Relicense to forbid derivative works. This would leave us the
>> possibilities to sell widelands, given that we get the permission of all
>> contributors. But no one else could. I think the Creative Commons allows for
>> something like that.
>>>> 
>>>> 3) Relicense to forbid commercialisation. This would not allow anyone
>> to make money with widelands. We or someone else could still bring it to the
>> appstore but would have to give it away for free.
>>>> 
>>>> Note that relicensing is hard to do and may not be possible at all, I
>> have no idea.
>>>> 
>>>> Comments?
>>>> Holger
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> Download Intel&#174; Parallel Studio Eval
>>>> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
>>>> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
>>>> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
>>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
>>>> _______________________________________________
>>>> Widelands-public mailing list
>>>> Widelands-public@...
>>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/widelands-public
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Download Intel&#174; Parallel Studio Eval
>>> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
>>> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
>>> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
>>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Widelands-public mailing list
>>> Widelands-public@...
>>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/widelands-public
>>> 
>> 
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Download Intel&#174; Parallel Studio Eval
>> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
>> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
>> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
>> _______________________________________________
>> Widelands-public mailing list
>> Widelands-public@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/widelands-public
> 
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> 
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Download Intel&#174; Parallel Studio Eval
> Try the new software tools for yourself. Speed compiling, find bugs
> proactively, and fine-tune applications for parallel performance.
> See why Intel Parallel Studio got high marks during beta.
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/intel-sw-dev
> _______________________________________________
> Widelands-public mailing list
> Widelands-public@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/widelands-public

IANAL But it seems to me a safe solution would be to include a line in the
current licensing insisting on donations to the project in an amount equal
to a reasonable amount of commercial profits, for example, 75%, It sells in
the appstore for say $1.00, widelands dev would get $0.75 for each one sold.
 Sure the person who ran the app store would still get 35% but it could
probably be justified for the code changes and the trouble of setting up and
managing the app account.  If widelands does well, it very well could allow
the entire project to gain independence (if desired) from
sourceforge/launchpad.  Or at least make it viable to have someone coding
full time (it may be fun to code, but coding between work/school can be
tedious, and results in slower development, having a full time coder could
not only accelerate the process, but may even allow that person to do coding
for appstores and the like instead of a third party who wants the hoarde the
profits).

On Friday 16 April 2010 21:07:38 Bryan Packer wrote:
> IANAL But it seems to me a safe solution would be to include a line in the
> current licensing insisting on donations to the project in an amount equal
> to a reasonable amount of commercial profits, for example, 75%,

There's no way this could be made legally binding without affecting us 
negatively in other respects (such as the license becoming non-OSI-compatible 
and all the mess that would follow).

> It sells in
> the appstore for say $1.00, widelands dev would get $0.75 for each one
>  sold. Sure the person who ran the app store would still get 35% but it
>  could probably be justified for the code changes and the trouble of
>  setting up and managing the app account.  If widelands does well, it very
>  well could allow the entire project to gain independence (if desired) from
> sourceforge/launchpad.  Or at least make it viable to have someone coding
> full time (it may be fun to code, but coding between work/school can be
> tedious, and results in slower development, having a full time coder could
> not only accelerate the process, but may even allow that person to do
>  coding for appstores and the like instead of a third party who wants the
>  hoarde the profits).

I like your optimism.

cu,
Nicolai
-- 
Lerne, wie die Welt wirklich ist,
aber vergiss niemals, wie sie sein sollte.

I just found an very interesting thread [1]. A user quotes an email he received from the FSF in relation to an iphone version of SuperTux. The conclusion is that not even GPLv2 would be allowed to the appstore without the allowance of the developers. I do not understand the license text in english, but I sure thing the FSF know their salt.

Btw, I have also send the FSF an email with the problem today and hope they will get back to me.

[1] http://lists.lethargik.org/pipermail/supertux-devel-lethargik.org/2010-March/002942.html

Holger