On Tue, Jun 14, 2011 at 6:27 PM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote:
> | From Steve the Fiddle <stevethefiddle@...>
> | Tue, 14 Jun 2011 00:40:45 +0100
> | Subject: [Audacity-quality] Screen readers and effects WAS Re: "Decay" or "Release" for dynamic processors?
>> On Mon, Jun 13, 2011 at 7:48 PM, Gale Andrews <gale@...> wrote:
>> > | From David Bailes <drbailes@...>
>> > | Mon, 13 Jun 2011 13:08:33 +0100
>> > | Subject: [Audacity-quality] "Decay" or "Release" for dynamic processors?
>> >> On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 9:08 PM, Steve the Fiddle
>> >> <stevethefiddle@...> wrote:
>> >> > In the latest version of the Nyquist Noise Gate that I recently
>> >> > uploaded to the wiki,
>> >> for screen readers, it would be better if the units for the quantities
>> >> were in parenthesis after the text box labels, rather than after the
>> >> sliders, where they're not read at all. (I know you've fixed this on
>> >> some other dialogs already).
>> > I guess we should decide about this and add it to "Nyquist
>> > Conventions" on the Forum:
>> > http://forum.audacityteam.org/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=42106
>> > However the practice in Audacity built-in effects is to put the units
>> > in parentheses before the text box. When we do put the units before
>> > the text box in Nyquist effects we enclose in square brackets. Is there
>> > a reason for that inconsistency? Why not standardise for Nyquist
>> > effects on units in parentheses before the text box?
>> The slider widget in Nyquist plug-ins has been designed for text
>> before and after the slider. Most of the earliest Nyquist plug-ins
>> used this as "description" before the slider and "range/units" after
>> the slider. It has (mostly) been since the discovery of the problem
>> with screen readers that some plug-ins have included the range/units
>> before the slider, and I presume (with no hard facts to back up this
>> assumption) that square brackets were used to distinguish the
>> range/units from any other text that may be in parentheses.
>> IMHO it would be much better if the problems with sliders and "right
>> text" could be fixed rather than introducing a convention to work
>> around the problem. Are these problems fixable?
> My feeling is that we make Nyquist plug-ins largely for Audacity.
> Therefore they should obey the interface conventions of Audacity
> built-in plug-ins where technically possible. It's also a quicker fix
> for screen reader problems, even assuming reading text after a
> slider can be fixed.
Nyquist plug-ins are exclusively for Audacity.
In many cases the Nyquist script could be re-used in standalone
Nyquist, but the "plug-in" is only supported by Audacity. The header
information, including the ;control lines is code for Audacity.
Nyquist sees those lines as comments (ignores them).
While I see your point about obeying the interface conventions of
Audacity, I only agree in part.
There are some conventions that are easy to apply (such as naming
conventions and capital letters). However, there are some conventions
that apply to plug-ins that are specific to the type of plug-in. An
obvious example is that built-in effects usually have a Preview
button, whereas Nyquist plug-ins have a debug button. Other examples
include grouping of related controls (for example "step 1 / step 2" in
Noise Removal, and the grouping of controls in Sliding Time Scale /
Pitch Shift) and in LADSPA plug-ins the minimum and maximum slider
values shown either end of the slider. These features cannot be
standardised for Nyquist plug-ins because Nyquist plug-ins can't do
these things. Given the lack of flexibility of GUI design for Nyquist
plug-ins I don't think that we can impose conventions that restrict
design flexibility further.
Also, it would be very strange to promote a convention for Nyquist
plug-ins that is at odds with all current plug-ins. Whether we like it
or not, for Nyquist plug-ins, putting the range/units in square
brackets is the convention simply because that's how it is in the
I'm not really happy about putting units in the "left text" as the
widgets have been designed for "right text". I see it as an
unfortunate practical necessity for reasons of accessibility. If the
problem with screen readers and "right text" is ever fixed, then we
will be left with a lot of plug-ins with text on the left, even if it
would be better for it to be on the right. Building around bugs is not
an ideal situation.
> Can text in Nyquist plug-ins actually be put between the text box
> and the slider? Or only before the text box or after the slider?
For slider widgets, text can only go before the text box and/or after
For multiple choice widgets, text can only go before the drop-down
(the "right text" is in the drop-down box).
For string widgets, text can go before the text box, after the text
box, and default text may be included in the text box.
The left/right text may include line breaks (/n) but no addition
vertical space is given for additional text lines.
The left text is always followed by a colon immediately after the
"Left / Right text" are both left aligned, but the block of left text
is aligned to the right.
Multi-choice widgets can display multi-line options, and the height of
the drop-down box is adjusted to fit vertically.
>> >> (Alas the compressor effect dialog is unusable by users of screen
>> >> readers as there isn't an equivalent text box for each slider (which
>> >> just read a percentage).)
>> > Other cases where the slider reads a percentage are the Sound Activation
>> > Level in the Recording Preferences (and the dialogue box leading from
>> > Transport > Sound Activation Level), also toolbar sliders (though you
>> > can usually get the level there by double-click).
>> > However the sliders in Graphic EQ read the slider value, not a percentage
>> > (though there are also requests for text box input in EQ because it's less
>> > "fiddly" to type a value).
>> > So is the easier/more useful fix for Compressor to add text boxes rather
>> > than "fix" the slider to read the value - or do both?
>> >> Any chance of including the text envelope plug-in which you wrote on
>> >> this wiki page (or somewhere else) so screen reader users can find it?
>> > The place for it would be:
>> > http://wiki.audacityteam.org/wiki/Download_Nyquist_Plug-ins#Effect_plug-ins
>> > Gale