> I have read the Jef Raskin's book, The Humane Interface,
> Its an analisys of the "conventional GUI", and all the
> wrong thins about them.
i am going to have to disagree with some of jef's points... and i think jef is
not quite living in "reality" (sorry jef - nothing personal - i'm taking a
PRACTICAL look at things here).
> The Question is, has someone wrote some design principles
> for the new e17 shell? I mean, how the system will display messages
> to the user, how to erase a character *right* (not just implementing
> the same way, used in other GUIs like KDE, Windows,etc.)
first - there is NOTHING E can do about most of this. it's the widget set and
application. a wm controls where windows appear on screen, their borders (only)
and desktop menu - traditionally the desktop itself (though gnome and kde move
that to be the file manager controlling the desktop bg) and task switching,
focus handling, window moves and resizes - and thats about it. anything drawn
WITHIN an application window is out of the hands of the WM. any reactions (copy
& past, keyboard entry, deletion)is the job of an app/widget set. E can't do
> I think this is very important for the Ewl widget Library, and how
> to construct applications.
sure - that is assuming lots of large apps will just "change widget set".
practicality will show they it won't happen easily - and you will make people do
it kicking and srceaming.
> e17 could be more than just a way to launch applications,
> I like enlightenment because is not a "clone of", like the other
> GUIs of Open Source. Would be nice, to do a radical change in
> the Linux interfaces, and e17 its a nice place to start.
in all honesty - thats all it WILL be. it will be (hopefully) a VERY slick way
of managing and launching your apps. soing anything more is rather impractical.
sure we can make ewl different - but only ewl using apps will be that way - we
cant change openoffice, galeon, mozilla, evolution, gimp etc. etc.
> Here is a link to a speech from Jef Raskin, about the future of interfaces
> on Linux:
i have read this and i have to disagree with a some of it, i am "iffy" on a lot
and agree with some. i will get onto my vehement disagreements:
"Remember, too, that a GUI is a double system: it combines slow-to-use menus and
hard-to-learn keyboard shortcuts. In other words, a modern GUI is a combination
of two bad ideas."
firstly... a LOT of guis DONT use menus - they use toolbars to save menu time. i
don't know how jef uses his software - but i try configure my toolbars to have
everything i need normally there at the press of a button - i spend some time
making my apps work for ME and then reap the benefits.
as for menus... they are still faster than a command-line because they give
instant "listings" of options and access to them - without a manual. all menu
systems show keyboard shortcuts (well all good ones) and a good one allows fast
keyboard navigation too - i have some interesting stuff in e17's menu code to
make them lightning fast for that... well the start of it. a user using a menu
option often should make some TIME to move it to a toolbar or LEARN the shortcut
- just like you LEARN english or mathematics - if you need to use it often -
learn it and you will get better.
"Our present methods are poor both in overall design and in the details. For
example we often move things with cut-and-paste. But if the dog gets into an
argument with a skunk after you've cut something, and you forget to paste it,
the next time you cut something, there goes your million-dollar idea."
copy & paste? sure. i have seen WINDOWS users become addicted to it - they use
it for file management -f ro everything - they just dont USE drag and drop -
it's there. they just have LEARNT not to use dnd - and instead use copy & paste.
whats wrong with highlight of text drag and drop it somewhere to store it...
like the filemanager or a clipboard? i would just say "stupid you" if you do not
use the myriad of facilities already placed at your disposal. there are
clipboard managers that display the contents of whatever is selected and can
store multiple "clips" - if jef USED one he'd be safe.
"By the way, another interface goof is today's gross overuse of icons -- as is
demonstrated by "tool tips" which pop up to explain in words what these obscure
symbols mean. We do not have icons popping up to explain what words mean."
now i VEHEMENTLY disagree with jef. have you EVERY used a UI on a computer set
to a language you CANT READ? lets say... japanese? not only can you not
understand the language - you cannot even read the script. you cannot begin to
GUESS what menu, icon or option does... even if your language skills are
half-way there - an image helps CLARIFY what you may believe to be the intent of
the button/menu etc. the fact i can walk up to ANY computer and find the EXIT
button with an X" is GREAT. the computer can be in swahili and i can get BASIC
use out of it - maybe enough to go FIND the option to change it into english.
i am sorry - icons are GREAT! use them! everywhere! they clarify meaning and
allow for "instant recognition of a button or icon - without having to READ the
text. just the examples of "icons" in airports, buildings everywhere for
toilets, elevators, exits etc. is an indication of their immense usefulness.
colour, and shape are MUCH faster for humans to recognise than a sentence of
letters. sure a "speed reader" learns to store an entire WORD as a single shape
in their memory - icons provide a universal way of already doing that.
i can say all this from personal experience. i moved to japan recently and have
had to wrestle with a windows2000 machine at one point - all in japanese - the
cool bit - i could vaguely use it THANKS to icons. macos-x in japanese is even
easier to use - more icons! :)
long live the icon! :)
"REFACTORING THE SYSTEM"
and HOW do u propose to change every app? (jef) this isn't that practical. it
will be a long time coming and likely wont happen as everyone races to clone
useful apps from windows to make their linux systems at least FUNCTION as well
as windows does for them.
i will use jef's own quotes. but for guis - the paradigm isnt broken - its the
little things here and there that are and it just needs a bit of cleaning.
otherwise he makes some good points - but most of todays brokenness is
mis-understanding by users and not using tools already available.
things like virtual desktops help immensely to organise the myriad of windows
you may have. X has had these for almost "ever" and are considered a
requirement. the real trick is in making it all slick and seamless.
there is only so much WE can do. we will worry about what we can do... and leave
the rest to others i guess. one thing i'd love to solve is the filemanager.
nautilus has come a long way - but even it is still not there. the filemanager
allows for a MUCH more "object oriented" gui. you work on DATA not through APPS.
when you want to modify a document you find the docuemtn u want then
double-click and thus modify
but to EMAIL it you need to go to your -email client
start a mail
select the file...
you should be able to drag and drop the document ON your mailer icon or on an
"outbox" icon and it would pop up a box asking where to send it to and any
subject or comments to add. maybe the outbox may specify a specific person(s) to
send it to - and so the dialogue would only ask for a subject and comments...
thats how it should be done. a data-oriented interface. the filemanager would be
------------- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --------------
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler) raster@...
熊耳 - 車君 (数田) raster@...
Tokyo, Japan (東京 日本)