ROX Desktop

Hi Michael,

   I've sent a patch that does exactly what you want a few
days ago because i was annoyed too...

This patch is quite smaller (1 line).

Hope you like it...


Cheers,

   Riccardo.


On 2001.12.08 10:53 Michael Adams wrote:
> Hi there,
> I'm using ROX with the Oroborus WM and one thing kept annoying me... 
> every single pinboard icon was in the tasklist (fspanel) and the 
> icons didn't stay on the bottom layer, ie the desktop.
> 
> So.... i saw that Gmc did what i wanted, so i stole the source, and 
> applied it to ROX.
> 
> note : patch doesn't rely on gnome!
> how to apply : goto src dir, run 'patch -p 1 < MyPatch'
> 
> and btw, i'm sure that there must be a better way to do all of this!
> 
> Keep up the excellent work,
> Michael Adams.
> 
[snip]
> 

-- 
.------------------------------------.
|        riccardo persichetti        |
|------------------------------------|
| ricpersi@...                 |
| riccardo.persichetti@... |
`------------------------------------'

I tried this one, but oroborus doesm't map these windows to the desktop,
and it also leaves their entries on the tasklist. So, in effect, it does
nothing, for me atleast! what wm are you using?

btw, yours is _much_ smaller!

Riccardo Persichetti wrote:

 > Hi Michael,
 >
 >   I've sent a patch that does exactly what you want a few
 > days ago because i was annoyed too...
 >
 > This patch is quite smaller (1 line).
 >
 > Hope you like it...
 >
 >
 > Cheers,
 >
 >   Riccardo.
 >
 >
 > On 2001.12.08 10:53 Michael Adams wrote:
 >
 >> Hi there,
 >> I'm using ROX with the Oroborus WM and one thing kept annoying me...
 >> every single pinboard icon was in the tasklist (fspanel) and the
 >> icons didn't stay on the bottom layer, ie the desktop.
 >>
 >> So.... i saw that Gmc did what i wanted, so i stole the source, and
 >> applied it to ROX.
 >>
 >> note : patch doesn't rely on gnome!
 >> how to apply : goto src dir, run 'patch -p 1 < MyPatch'
 >>
 >> and btw, i'm sure that there must be a better way to do all of this!
 >>
 >> Keep up the excellent work,
 >> Michael Adams.
 >>
 > [snip]
 >
 >>
 >
 >
 >------------------------------------------------------------------------
 >
 >--- pinboard.c.old	Tue Nov 27 07:45:51 2001
 >+++ pinboard.c	Tue Nov 27 07:46:47 2001
 >@@ -291,7 +291,7 @@
 >
 > 	icon->item.leafname = g_strdup(name);
 >
 >-	icon->win = gtk_window_new(GTK_WINDOW_DIALOG);
 >+	icon->win = gtk_window_new(GTK_WINDOW_POPUP);
 > 	gtk_window_set_wmclass(GTK_WINDOW(icon->win), "ROX-Pinboard", PROJECT);
 >
 > 	icon->widget = gtk_drawing_area_new();
 >

I'm using Window Maker + fspanel, and everything works fine...
I mean, windows get mapped but they're not listed on fspanel.

Maybe it's oroborus fault...

Anyway i think that giving the right attributes to the
window-icons would solve the problem...

I'll try installing oroborus and see what we can do.

Cheers,

   Riccardo.

On 2001.12.08 13:02 Michael Adams wrote:
> I tried this one, but oroborus doesm't map these windows to the 
> desktop,
> and it also leaves their entries on the tasklist. So, in effect, it 
> does
> nothing, for me atleast! what wm are you using?
> 
> btw, yours is _much_ smaller!
> 

-- 
.------------------------------------.
|        riccardo persichetti        |
|------------------------------------|
| ricpersi@...                 |
| riccardo.persichetti@... |
`------------------------------------'

Riccardo:
> Maybe it's oroborus fault...

I'm inclined to agree.  I'm using the patched fspanel supplied with aewm++
and I've not noticed this problem yet, but I'm a couple of version behind
with ROX-File at the moment.

> Anyway i think that giving the right attributes to the
> window-icons would solve the problem...

Indeed, they should have the correct EWMHs set if they don't already.
-- 
MJR

Just out of curiosity, did either of you try launching rox with the
'-o' option before looking at the code?  I admittedly haven't delved
into the Rox-Filer source myself at all, but running with this option
resolved the exact problem you folks are having for me (I'm on
WindowMaker).

-- Greg

On Sat, 8 Dec 2001 07:53:22 +0100, Riccardo Persichetti said:

> Hi Michael,
>  
>     I've sent a patch that does exactly what you want a few
>  days ago because i was annoyed too...
>  
>  This patch is quite smaller (1 line).
>  
>  Hope you like it...
>  
>  
>  Cheers,
>  
>     Riccardo.
>  
>  
>  On 2001.12.08 10:53 Michael Adams wrote:
>  > Hi there,
>  > I'm using ROX with the Oroborus WM and one thing kept annoying me... 
>  > every single pinboard icon was in the tasklist (fspanel) and the 
>  > icons didn't stay on the bottom layer, ie the desktop.
>  > 
>  > So.... i saw that Gmc did what i wanted, so i stole the source, and 
>  > applied it to ROX.
>  > 
>  > note : patch doesn't rely on gnome!
>  > how to apply : goto src dir, run 'patch -p 1 < MyPatch'
>  > 
>  > and btw, i'm sure that there must be a better way to do all of this!
>  > 
>  > Keep up the excellent work,
>  > Michael Adams.
>  > 
>  [snip]
>  > 
>  

-- 
Greg Spath
gspath@...
http://freefall.homeip.net/
irc://freefall.homeip.net/mtb

I thought it didn't fix my problem, but it seems to! What it's doing is: 
lowering the window, then setting 
gdk_window_set_override_redirect(window, TRUE), which stops the WM even 
knowing it exists. Much cleaner it would seem! is there anything wrong 
with doing it this way rather than window hints?

Greg Spath wrote:

>Just out of curiosity, did either of you try launching rox with the
>'-o' option before looking at the code?  I admittedly haven't delved
>into the Rox-Filer source myself at all, but running with this option
>resolved the exact problem you folks are having for me (I'm on
>WindowMaker).
>

Michael:
> gdk_window_set_override_redirect(window, TRUE), which stops the WM even 
> knowing it exists. Much cleaner it would seem! is there anything wrong 
> with doing it this way rather than window hints?

Technically, I believe so.  It not only stops the WM knowing it exists, but
other apps interrogating the X server see a "ghost" window which may confuse
them.  That said, I've not run into practical problems with it, other then
ones I've created.
-- 
MJR

On Sat, Dec 08, 2001 at 11:39:48PM +0000, MJ Ray wrote:
> Michael:
> > gdk_window_set_override_redirect(window, TRUE), which stops the WM even 
> > knowing it exists. Much cleaner it would seem! is there anything wrong 
> > with doing it this way rather than window hints?
> 
> Technically, I believe so.  It not only stops the WM knowing it exists, but
> other apps interrogating the X server see a "ghost" window which may confuse
> them.  That said, I've not run into practical problems with it, other then
> ones I've created.

Programs should cope with override redirect windows. They're used for
anything that shouldn't be under WM control at all. Menus, for example are
normally done this way.

Some WMs try to keep these windows above all others, which causes problems
with pinboard icons ;-)

Also, some WMs may still want to manage them. For example, one that
creates a screen-sized window for the backdrop and wants to put the icons
inside that.

The filer follows the WM spec here:
	http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/wm-spec.html

There was a bug (just fixed) which prevented this working with Gtk+-2.0.


-- 
Thomas Leonard			http://rox.sourceforge.net
tal00r@...		tal197@...

I too run Oroborus with ROX and fspanel.  I run
version 1.14.0 stable and found that I could get rid
of the problem of the pinboard icons appearing on
fspanel by launching ROX with the -o option.

To get rid of the problem of the Oroborus managed
windows appearing beneath the pinboard icons, I
commented out the line :

LAYER     = -DLAYER_SUPPORT

to be

LAYER     = #-DLAYER_SUPPORT

in the make file.  This solves the problem, unless you
right double-click to send the window to the back, in
which case it goes behind the rox icons again :-/

I much prefer using the latest Oroborus 2.0.4 version,
but I cannot find an equivalent setting to the LAYER
one anywhere, so am stuck with the windows being
behind the  pinboard icons....

I use Oroburus because I found it to be the fastest
and lightest weight window manager that doesn't look
appalling.  On my low spec machine (P166, 64Mb ram) I
found using sawfish was too slow with ROX, as whenever
a window was dragged over the pinboard icons, it would
get too jerky.  Oroborus improved this.

This leads me to ask (in my ignorance of X) is there a
faster, more lightweight way to represent icons on the
pinboard?  Rather than having a root window with each
icon being another window, couldn't the pinboard be
some form of full screen filer window?

 



--- Michael Adams <madleech@...> wrote:
> Hi there,
> I'm using ROX with the Oroborus WM and one thing
> kept annoying me... 
> every single pinboard icon was in the tasklist
> (fspanel) and the icons 
> didn't stay on the bottom layer, ie the desktop.


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a a:
> This leads me to ask (in my ignorance of X) is there a faster, more
> lightweight way to represent icons on the pinboard?  Rather than having a
> root window with each icon being another window, couldn't the pinboard be
> some form of full screen filer window?

I could be wrong, but doing so would require either transparency with the
shape extension (expensive), or pseudo-transparency (also expensive).

I'd love to be wrong, though.
-- 
MJR

On Sun, 9 Dec 2001 13:06:03 -0800 (PST)
a a <mailerbot@...> wrote:

> 
> This leads me to ask (in my ignorance of X) is there a
> faster, more lightweight way to represent icons on the
> pinboard?  Rather than having a root window with each
> icon being another window, couldn't the pinboard be
> some form of full screen filer window?

KDE's replacement for KFM does this (creates a single window and puts the
icons there instead of on the root window).  This was my main reason for
seeking out a new filer and discovering ROX.  A full screen window would
be a pain in the butt with most any windowmanager.  For example, I like
using windowmaker's context menus on my root window, and not some other
filer's.  Creating your own big window for pinboard icons would break
that.

--g

-- 
Gregory Spath              
gspath@...
http://freefall.homeip.net/
irc://freefall.homeip.net/%23mtb

On Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:37:20 +0000
Thomas Leonard <tal00r@...> wrote:

[about override redirect windows]

> Also, some WMs may still want to manage them. For example, one that
> creates a screen-sized window for the backdrop and wants to put the icons
> inside that.

Override redirect windows are also problematic when the user ask to lower a window: the WM should put the lowered window under the panel and above pinboard icons, but all of them are override redirect...

> The filer follows the WM spec here:
> 	http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/wm-spec.html

About this, should not pinboard icons have the _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_DESKTOP window-type set?  I see that they have sticky, skip-pager and skip taskbar set, but nothing in their properties say that they should stay in the bottom layer, and I think that the desktop type is just for that (if I understand correclty the EWMH).

In fact, I am currently writing a small window manager and intend to make it as ROX compliant as possible (e.g. by using the Choices path).  The first step is of course to be able to handle correctly all Filer windows without the "-o" option.  Another problem I have with this is that pinboard icons have the "input focus" hint set to true; this is not a real problem when in click-to-focus mode, but in sloppy-focus this is quite annoying.  As the icons never need keyboard input, maybe we could set the hint to false?

I hope to release the first beta of my wm (it's called Framer) real soon now, may be by the end of the week, or at the beginning of next week.

-- 
Laurent Moussault

On Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:15:19 -0500
Gregory Spath <gspath@...> wrote:

> KDE's replacement for KFM does this (creates a single window and puts the
> icons there instead of on the root window).  This was my main reason for
> seeking out a new filer and discovering ROX.  A full screen window would
> be a pain in the butt with most any windowmanager.

A really "Extended Window Manager Hints" compliant WM should be able to cope with that...  But that's the problem of creating new standards: someone has to start supporting them.  Of course the first should be the WM, but if no application use a feature, it won't be a priority for WM developpers...

I don't know, though, if using a single window instead of several shaped windows is really a boost on modern computers.  Someone has a clue about this?

-- 
Laurent Moussault

On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:19:53AM +0100, Laurent Moussault wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Dec 2001 14:37:20 +0000
> Thomas Leonard <tal00r@...> wrote:
> 
> [about override redirect windows]
>
> > The filer follows the WM spec here:
> > 	http://www.freedesktop.org/standards/wm-spec.html
> 
> About this, should not pinboard icons have the
> _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_DESKTOP window-type set?  I see that they have
> sticky, skip-pager and skip taskbar set, but nothing in their properties
> say that they should stay in the bottom layer, and I think that the
> desktop type is just for that (if I understand correclty the EWMH).

Looks like the spec has been updated! Gtk+ doesn't know about the new type
yet, but I've set it manually now.

> In fact, I am currently writing a small window manager and intend to
> make it as ROX compliant as possible (e.g. by using the Choices path).
> The first step is of course to be able to handle correctly all Filer
> windows without the "-o" option.  Another problem I have with this is
> that pinboard icons have the "input focus" hint set to true; this is not
> a real problem when in click-to-focus mode, but in sloppy-focus this is
> quite annoying.  As the icons never need keyboard input, maybe we could
> set the hint to false?

Done. Thanks,


-- 
Thomas Leonard			http://rox.sourceforge.net
tal00r@...		tal197@...

On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:28:43AM +0100, Laurent Moussault wrote:
> On Sun, 9 Dec 2001 17:15:19 -0500
> Gregory Spath <gspath@...> wrote:
> 
> > KDE's replacement for KFM does this (creates a single window and puts the
> > icons there instead of on the root window).  This was my main reason for
> > seeking out a new filer and discovering ROX.  A full screen window would
> > be a pain in the butt with most any windowmanager.
> 
> A really "Extended Window Manager Hints" compliant WM should be able to
> cope with that...  But that's the problem of creating new standards:
> someone has to start supporting them.  Of course the first should be the
> WM, but if no application use a feature, it won't be a priority for WM
> developpers...

The spec suggests that creating a new screen-sized window is OK, and
describes a way for backdrop-setting applications to find it.

I can't see the point of this. If you can handle the case of the icons
being drawn directly on the window with the backdrop, you might as well
use the root window!

> I don't know, though, if using a single window instead of several shaped
> windows is really a boost on modern computers.  Someone has a clue about
> this?

Drawing directly would be a big help with semi-transparent icons, and with
AA fonts (currently, you can only have a rectangular slab with AA fonts).


-- 
Thomas Leonard			http://rox.sourceforge.net
tal00r@...		tal197@...

On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 01:17:27PM +0000, Thomas Leonard wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 09:19:53AM +0100, Laurent Moussault wrote:
[...]
> > About this, should not pinboard icons have the
> > _NET_WM_WINDOW_TYPE_DESKTOP window-type set?  I see that they have
> > sticky, skip-pager and skip taskbar set, but nothing in their properties
> > say that they should stay in the bottom layer, and I think that the
> > desktop type is just for that (if I understand correclty the EWMH).
> 
> Looks like the spec has been updated! Gtk+ doesn't know about the new type
> yet, but I've set it manually now.

Interesting side effect... sawfish now gets middle-button clicks on the
icon and displays its own menu instead of letting the filer drag the
icon around.

Then again, from a UI point of view, people seem to find the current
method of moving icons unobvious so maybe we should fix that instead.


-- 
Thomas Leonard			http://rox.sourceforge.net
tal00r@...		tal197@...

Thomas Leonard <tal00r@...> wrote:

> 
> Interesting side effect... sawfish now gets middle-button clicks on the
> icon and displays its own menu instead of letting the filer drag the
> icon around.
> 
> Then again, from a UI point of view, people seem to find the current
> method of moving icons unobvious so maybe we should fix that instead.

My vote is to leave it alone (or at least make in configurable).  Using a
different button to move than to launch is a GOOD thing.  Just like the
WPS I was so fond of and miss so much :)

If you make it configurable, it should definitely be consistent throughout
though.  So if you want to move with the middle or RMB, then it should be
that way between filer windows and applications as well.

--g


-- 
Gregory Spath              
gspath@...
http://freefall.homeip.net/
irc://freefall.homeip.net/mtb

On Tue, Dec 11, 2001 at 12:42:46PM -0500, Gregory Spath wrote:
> Thomas Leonard <tal00r@...> wrote:
> 
> > 
> > Interesting side effect... sawfish now gets middle-button clicks on the
> > icon and displays its own menu instead of letting the filer drag the
> > icon around.
> > 
> > Then again, from a UI point of view, people seem to find the current
> > method of moving icons unobvious so maybe we should fix that instead.
> 
> My vote is to leave it alone (or at least make in configurable).  Using a
> different button to move than to launch is a GOOD thing.  Just like the
> WPS I was so fond of and miss so much :)
> 
> If you make it configurable, it should definitely be consistent throughout
> though.  So if you want to move with the middle or RMB, then it should be
> that way between filer windows and applications as well.

Well, it needs to change because middle-drag isn't working anymore ;-)

I've updated it so it allows dragging with either button now (but it works
differently depending on which button you use!). Try it. I can make it an
option if some people find it annoying.


-- 
Thomas Leonard			http://rox.sourceforge.net
tal00r@...		tal197@...