Webware for Python

I'm currently using XEP for the PDF transformation.  It's as easy as 
this:
      xep.sh -xml sourcefile.xml -xsl xslfile.xsl

The resulting PDF is named sourcefile.pdf.  The XSL tranformation 
file is one I've developed specifically for DocUtils raw XML output.  
It would work, with little modification, with the FOP transformer (I 
started out using FOP).

Only reason there'd need to be a collection process is to create an 
set of .. include: directives to import the pages in-order.  And, 
too, I suppose, there'd have to be some sort of normalizing of 
section title underlining.

Anyway, the XML transformations are the easy part.  Figuring out how 
to create a source RST document is the tough part!

There is no install outside of the webware directory.  When you want
webware to be gone, you can simply delete the directory - it does not
affect anything outside of the directory unless you tell it to with
MakeAppWorkDir or by installing an external adapter.

I personally prefer this to a distutils install (makes it easier to
deploy and maintain on a shared server where I don't have root - I just
put it in "~/opt/webware".)

In the same vein, webware "runs" form this directory, and although it
can be shared among multiple app server instances without danger, it
must stay exactly where you ran install.py from.  (unless you move it,
run install.py again and change your Launch.py for each instance.)

On Thu, 2004-04-15 at 13:33, Paul Moore wrote:
> I've seen messages in the list implying that there is a longer-term
> intention to move the Webware install process to use distutils. This
> would be good from my point of view (on Windows) as I *always* use the
> bdist_wininst option of distutils to generate an installer package
> which provides an "uninstall" option.
> 
> In the current Webware scheme, how do I uninstall Webware? Also, once
> I've unpacked the distribution, and run python install.py, what can I
> safely delete? It looks like I need to keep the unpacked directory
> around, even after I do MakeWorkDir to create a working directory.
> Assuming that's true, what do I need to do to move the directory? (I
> unpacked in a temporary directory, and only realised my mistake
> afterwards). Do I need to uninstall and reinstall? If so (and I guess
> the same is true on an upgrade, as the unpacked directory name
> includes the version number) how do I tell my working directory where
> Webware has moved to?
> 
> Sorry if these are daft questions - I checked the website and the
> Wiki, but couldn't see anything on this issue.
> 
> Thanks,
> Paul

Paul Moore wrote:
> I've seen messages in the list implying that there is a longer-term
> intention to move the Webware install process to use distutils. This
> would be good from my point of view (on Windows) as I *always* use the
> bdist_wininst option of distutils to generate an installer package
> which provides an "uninstall" option.
> 
> In the current Webware scheme, how do I uninstall Webware? Also, once
> I've unpacked the distribution, and run python install.py, what can I
> safely delete? It looks like I need to keep the unpacked directory
> around, even after I do MakeWorkDir to create a working directory.
> Assuming that's true, what do I need to do to move the directory? (I
> unpacked in a temporary directory, and only realised my mistake
> afterwards). Do I need to uninstall and reinstall? If so (and I guess
> the same is true on an upgrade, as the unpacked directory name
> includes the version number) how do I tell my working directory where
> Webware has moved to?
> 
> Sorry if these are daft questions - I checked the website and the
> Wiki, but couldn't see anything on this issue.

Webware's install just fiddles with files inside the Webware directory, 
it doesn't touch anything outside, and you can deinstall just by 
deleting the directory.

MakeAppWorkDir hardcodes the path in a couple files -- just Launch.py 
and WebKit.cgi, I think, but I'm not sure.  You'd have to edit those 
files to change the path.

   Ian

Ian Bicking <ianb@...> writes:

> Webware's install just fiddles with files inside the Webware
> directory, it doesn't touch anything outside, and you can deinstall
> just by deleting the directory.

Ah. OK, that makes it pretty easy then.

> MakeAppWorkDir hardcodes the path in a couple files -- just Launch.py
> and WebKit.cgi, I think, but I'm not sure.  You'd have to edit those
> files to change the path.

Sounds good. Presumably, if I install into a directory which *doesn't*
contain the version number, then I don't need to change anything if I
later upgrade.

Paul.
-- 
This signature intentionally left blank

Hallo,
Paul Moore hat gesagt: // Paul Moore wrote:

> Ian Bicking <ianb@...> writes:
> > MakeAppWorkDir hardcodes the path in a couple files -- just Launch.py
> > and WebKit.cgi, I think, but I'm not sure.  You'd have to edit those
> > files to change the path.
> 
> Sounds good. Presumably, if I install into a directory which *doesn't*
> contain the version number, then I don't need to change anything if I
> later upgrade.

Correct. But of course there is nothing special about the version
number of the Webware directory. You could even name it your Webware
directory "zope-6.0" or similar. ;)

Ciao
-- 
 Frank Barknecht                               _ ______footils.org__

* Frank Barknecht <fbar@...> [2004-04-15 16:50]:
> number of the Webware directory. You could even name it your Webware
> directory "zope-6.0" or similar. ;)

I think you can make that joke when Webware hits 1.0 

;-)

-- 

___________________________
toddgrimason*todd@...

Definitely. 

I think there needs to be more simple learn-by-example programs to show why
the webware way makes your life EASIER. :)

> -----Original Message-----
> A simple problem that alot fo the examples use is that theres 
> too much at once going on.
> 
> none really have the simple "just decend from page and 
> self.writeln() your output. self.request() has the form type 
> enviro. Took me a while to figure it out.
> 
> But maybe a simple "heres how to do hello world" and next 
> step "lets make a form" etc etc thru the complexities will do 
> the trick.
> 
> 
> --
> Shayne O'Neill
> http://perth.indymedia.org
> I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
>  ----George W. Bush
> 
> On Tue, 13 Apr 2004, Chris Gahan wrote:
> 
> > Wow, it's really awesome to see excitement about Webware 
> again. This 
> > is inspiring! :)
> >
> > One thing I'd like to help improve is the documentation -- 
> > specifically, the documentation that introduces people to Webware.
> >
> > There's a lot of great info on the website, the wiki, and in the 
> > source's pydoc strings, but it's hard to see the big 
> picture at first 
> > because the amount of information is overwhelming. Being 
> able to find 
> > what you're looking for is harder than it should be. I 
> think it just 
> > needs a bit of the old 
> > top-down-hierarchical-organization-and-refactoring. :)
> >
> > When I was starting out, I found it kinda confusing that 
> the "On-line 
> > Docs" were API references, and that most of the "Papers" 
> covered a lot 
> > of the same thing, but with slight differences here and 
> there (I think 
> > they're great as introductions, but they all be kneaded 
> together into 
> > one really good document, placed on a page called "Turotial" :).
> >
> > It's a shame that the introduction to Webware can be 
> confusing since 
> > Webware is such a clean and simple framework, once you 
> understand it.
> >
> > I'd like to help overhaul this whole thing, but you know... NO TIME 
> > RIGHT NOW(tm). Damn you, 
> world-that-has-too-much-stuff-to-do-in-it!!!
> >
> > Anyhow, does anyone else here share my love of helping people 
> > understand things and simplifying? The Webware community 
> will become 
> > kickass if more people realize how cool it is.
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------
> > This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials Free Linux 
> > tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of GenToo 
> > technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system 
> > 
> administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click
> > _______________________________________________
> > Webware-discuss mailing list
> > Webware-discuss@...
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss
> >
>

I'm excited, too!  I've been a Webware user for almost 2+ years, and I, 
too, and BURIED WITH WORK(tm).  It's great to see all the activity, and 
I would love to help create some simple examples/tutorials.  I'm a big 
lover of diagrams and think about things visually all the time.

I can contribute some UML or other visual representations of how things 
work within Webware.  In the open-source world, I only know of ArgoUML 
(http://argouml.tigris.org I think) as a tool that we can use (or the 
community edition of Poseidon, the free/commercial version of ArgoUML).

Does anyone have any suggestions for other open-source diagramming 
tools?  And, what has anyone wished they could see visually?  I'm 
thinking a diagram companion to "anatomy of a transaction" would be a 
good place to start.

--Tracy

On Apr 12, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Chris Gahan wrote:

> It's a shame that the introduction to Webware can be confusing since
> Webware is such a clean and simple framework, once you understand it.
>
> I'd like to help overhaul this whole thing, but you know... NO TIME 
> RIGHT
> NOW(tm). Damn you, world-that-has-too-much-stuff-to-do-in-it!!!
>
> Anyhow, does anyone else here share my love of helping people 
> understand
> things and simplifying? The Webware community will become kickass if 
> more
> people realize how cool it is.

Tracy S. Ruggles wrote:
> I can contribute some UML or other visual representations of how things 
> work within Webware.  In the open-source world, I only know of ArgoUML 
> (http://argouml.tigris.org I think) as a tool that we can use (or the 
> community edition of Poseidon, the free/commercial version of ArgoUML).
> 
> Does anyone have any suggestions for other open-source diagramming 
> tools?  And, what has anyone wished they could see visually?  I'm 
> thinking a diagram companion to "anatomy of a transaction" would be a 
> good place to start.

Umbrello is a UML modeller for KDE:

   http://uml.sourceforge.net/index.php

> I'm excited, too!  I've been a Webware user for almost 2+ 
> years, and I, too, and BURIED WITH WORK(tm).  It's great to 
> see all the activity, and I would love to help create some 
> simple examples/tutorials.  I'm a big lover of diagrams and 
> think about things visually all the time.

Sweet, another visual thinker! Too few in the Computer Science world.
Everyone's so damn analytical.
 
> I can contribute some UML or other visual representations of 
> how things work within Webware.  In the open-source world, I 
> only know of ArgoUML (http://argouml.tigris.org I think) as a 
> tool that we can use (or the community edition of Poseidon, 
> the free/commercial version of ArgoUML).

Poseidon is, in my opinion, a bloated sack of crap. ArgoUML is much cleaner
and simpler, and crashes less. I think we should go for that. Since we're
not writing anything in Java or generating source code, or managing a large
project, the Poseidon features won't be of much help.

> Does anyone have any suggestions for other open-source 
> diagramming tools?  And, what has anyone wished they could 
> see visually?  I'm thinking a diagram companion to "anatomy 
> of a transaction" would be a good place to start.

I think it would be cool if people understood how the Appserver itself
worked, because if you don't understand how the Appserver works, at least
generally, you're not going to get far with Webware. :)

The idea of the pools-of-cached-servlets, plugins, Configurable classes, the
global environment, etc., would be nice to capture somehow. Dunno how you'd
make it easy to visualize though. Maybe an animated diagram with a request
coming in and moving through the pipeline! :D

Unmrello is a great modeller, and saves in the XMI format natively,
which would be a big plus.  Unfortunately, it's XMI is apparently
unreadable by every other tool that reads XMI. :(

It's still a very sharp modeller.

On Thu, 2004-04-15 at 10:39, Nick Murtagh wrote:
> Tracy S. Ruggles wrote:
> > I can contribute some UML or other visual representations of how things 
> > work within Webware.  In the open-source world, I only know of ArgoUML 
> > (http://argouml.tigris.org I think) as a tool that we can use (or the 
> > community edition of Poseidon, the free/commercial version of ArgoUML).
> > 
> > Does anyone have any suggestions for other open-source diagramming 
> > tools?  And, what has anyone wished they could see visually?  I'm 
> > thinking a diagram companion to "anatomy of a transaction" would be a 
> > good place to start.
> 
> Umbrello is a UML modeller for KDE:
> 
>    http://uml.sourceforge.net/index.php
> 
> 
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials
> Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of
> GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system
> administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click
> _______________________________________________
> Webware-discuss mailing list
> Webware-discuss@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss

Shayne ONeill wrote:

> A simple problem that alot fo the examples use is that theres too much at
> once going on.
> 
> none really have the simple "just decend from page and self.writeln()
> your output. self.request() has the form type enviro. Took me a while to
> figure it out.
and don't forget little gotchas like: name your .py file like
the servlet class name, and remember that "Index.py" is different
from "index.py"!  this annoys me a lot, a recent PEP 8 update
suggests that module names should be written in lowercase letters,
(no underscores) while classes should be named following CapWords 
convention.

not to mention methodName instead method_name.

bye.

boa-constructor (the vb/delphi like python enviro) generates uml. It'd be
nice to develop a plug in for webware for it. looks like a complex subject
tho.

--
Shayne O'Neill
http://perth.indymedia.org
I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
 ----George W. Bush

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004, Tracy S. Ruggles wrote:

> I'm excited, too!  I've been a Webware user for almost 2+ years, and I,
> too, and BURIED WITH WORK(tm).  It's great to see all the activity, and
> I would love to help create some simple examples/tutorials.  I'm a big
> lover of diagrams and think about things visually all the time.
>
> I can contribute some UML or other visual representations of how things
> work within Webware.  In the open-source world, I only know of ArgoUML
> (http://argouml.tigris.org I think) as a tool that we can use (or the
> community edition of Poseidon, the free/commercial version of ArgoUML).
>
> Does anyone have any suggestions for other open-source diagramming
> tools?  And, what has anyone wished they could see visually?  I'm
> thinking a diagram companion to "anatomy of a transaction" would be a
> good place to start.
>
> --Tracy
>
> On Apr 12, 2004, at 7:11 PM, Chris Gahan wrote:
>
> > It's a shame that the introduction to Webware can be confusing since
> > Webware is such a clean and simple framework, once you understand it.
> >
> > I'd like to help overhaul this whole thing, but you know... NO TIME
> > RIGHT
> > NOW(tm). Damn you, world-that-has-too-much-stuff-to-do-in-it!!!
> >
> > Anyhow, does anyone else here share my love of helping people
> > understand
> > things and simplifying? The Webware community will become kickass if
> > more
> > people realize how cool it is.
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials
> Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of
> GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system
> administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click
> _______________________________________________
> Webware-discuss mailing list
> Webware-discuss@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss
>

The method name/class name thing I suspect was at the root of my
mysteriously apearing and disapearing modules problem

I had a module, render.py with a class called render:

When I changed the module name to 'renderer', all the problems went away.

Yet this *does* seem to conflict with the norms of webware coding I think.

Perhaps webware is picking it up as a servlet (rather than a base class of
other objects) and doing something.. .er.. magical?!

namespace whackyness.

--
Shayne O'Neill
http://perth.indymedia.org
I know how hard it is for you to put food on your family."
 ----George W. Bush

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004, deelan wrote:

> Shayne ONeill wrote:
>
> > A simple problem that alot fo the examples use is that theres too much at
> > once going on.
> >
> > none really have the simple "just decend from page and self.writeln()
> > your output. self.request() has the form type enviro. Took me a while to
> > figure it out.
> and don't forget little gotchas like: name your .py file like
> the servlet class name, and remember that "Index.py" is different
> from "index.py"!  this annoys me a lot, a recent PEP 8 update
> suggests that module names should be written in lowercase letters,
> (no underscores) while classes should be named following CapWords
> convention.
>
> not to mention methodName instead method_name.
>
> bye.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------
> This SF.Net email is sponsored by: IBM Linux Tutorials
> Free Linux tutorial presented by Daniel Robbins, President and CEO of
> GenToo technologies. Learn everything from fundamentals to system
> administration.http://ads.osdn.com/?ad_id=1470&alloc_id=3638&op=click
> _______________________________________________
> Webware-discuss mailing list
> Webware-discuss@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss
>

Chris Gahan wrote:
> Wow, it's really awesome to see excitement about Webware again. This is 
> inspiring! :)
> 
> One thing I'd like to help improve is the documentation -- specifically, 
> the documentation that introduces people to Webware. 
> 
> There's a lot of great info on the website, the wiki, and in the source's 
> pydoc strings, but it's hard to see the big picture at first because the 
> amount of information is overwhelming. Being able to find what you're 
> looking for is harder than it should be. I think it just needs a bit of 
> the old top-down-hierarchical-organization-and-refactoring. :)
> 
> When I was starting out, I found it kinda confusing that the "On-line 
> Docs" were API references, and that most of the "Papers" covered a lot of 
> the same thing, but with slight differences here and there (I think 
> they're great as introductions, but they all be kneaded together into one 
> really good document, placed on a page called "Turotial" :).
> 
> It's a shame that the introduction to Webware can be confusing since 
> Webware is such a clean and simple framework, once you understand it.
> 
> I'd like to help overhaul this whole thing, but you know... NO TIME RIGHT 
> NOW(tm). Damn you, world-that-has-too-much-stuff-to-do-in-it!!!
> 
> Anyhow, does anyone else here share my love of helping people understand 
> things and simplifying? The Webware community will become kickass if more 
> people realize how cool it is.

Definitely better documentation is always good -- there's always more to 
be done.  If we put this stuff in the Wiki, people can improve the 
documentation with whatever pace they can manage -- the only problem 
might be reorganization, which (outside of reorganizing a single 
document) would probably be a bit of a pain in the Wiki.

I'm planning on adding a comment feature to the wiki, which is basically 
a bottom-post with signature, which might encourage feedback on 
documentation; comments can serve as good source material for later 
reorganizations.

Other ideas about the documentation are also welcome.  Certainly we can 
open up space in Subversion for people to collaborate as well, if that 
seems like a better environment.  (And *maybe* we could put the Wiki 
into Subversion... that would be clever; maybe not that hard)

   Ian

John Dickinson wrote:
> The company I work for uses Webware in a production environment.
> Currently we have some servers running Webware 0.8.0 and some servers
> running *gasp* Webware 0.4. These older machines are in the process
> of being upgraded, and newer versions of Webware will be installed.
> Which version of Webware will be best to use? Because it will be used
> in a live-data production environment, my first guess is to say use
> version 0.8.1. But recently on the list I've heard some discussion
> about some things that are broken in .8.1 but fixed in CVS. Keeping
> in mind that stability is a huge factor, should we use .8.1 or go for
> what's in CVS?

I'd stay with 0.8.1 for now.  There are some issues with it, but they 
are all issues that have been around for a while (as far as I know).

   Ian

Will there be a new major/stable release in the near future? If so, it may be worth the wait to avoid having to upgrade production servers twice.

--John

On Thu, 15 Apr 2004 10:59:32 -0500
Ian Bicking <ianb@...> wrote:

> John Dickinson wrote:
> > The company I work for uses Webware in a production environment.
> > Currently we have some servers running Webware 0.8.0 and some servers
> > running *gasp* Webware 0.4. These older machines are in the process
> > of being upgraded, and newer versions of Webware will be installed.
> > Which version of Webware will be best to use? Because it will be used
> > in a live-data production environment, my first guess is to say use
> > version 0.8.1. But recently on the list I've heard some discussion
> > about some things that are broken in .8.1 but fixed in CVS. Keeping
> > in mind that stability is a huge factor, should we use .8.1 or go for
> > what's in CVS?
> 
> I'd stay with 0.8.1 for now.  There are some issues with it, but they 
> are all issues that have been around for a while (as far as I know).
> 
>    Ian
>