Webware for Python

You jumped lists from cheetahtemplate-discuss to webware-discuss.

For webware-discuss readers, the question is whether to change the
Webware documentation source format from HTML to Structured Text, LaTeX,
DocBook et all, etc.  A flexible format such as LaTeX or an XML/SGML
format (DocBook, LinuxDoc, etc) would allow easy processing by tools for
those languages, conversion to HTML or multiple other formats, etc.

On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 02:38:23PM -0500, Clark C . Evans wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 09:27:24AM -0800, Mike Orr wrote:
> | Chuck Esterbrook wrote:
> | > I ask because it's an interesting question for any project. Webware
> | > currently uses plain HTML, but I would consider going to a Wiki syntax
> | > and either using one of the existing Python modules for this
> | > (StructuredText?) or rolling my own.
> | 
> | Rolling your own would be reinventing the wheel.  Using one of the
> | existing ones -- maybe, if it does everything you want, including robust
> | formatting and convertable to HTML/PS/PDF.  (*I* don't care about PDF,
> | but I know you do. :)
> 
> I've found that plain ole HTML (sticking to structural
> markup only) is usually good enough for me.  To make it
> look pretty, one can use CSS.  And if you really get
> fancy, you can use XSLT-FO to convert into PDF.  Although
> TeX is very good... most developers don't know it and
> thus can't easily contribute to documentation.

HTML is fine to get something out the door quickly, but it's not as
suitable for a long-term maintenance and storage.  The tags are not
quite precise enough for word-processor-like formatting, but not general
enough to make the logical units individually extractable, or for
putting in hints HTML doesn't need but another format might.

Yes, LaTeX's syntax is a major problem.  I have to feel my way around it
for the Cheetah documentation.  I refuse to buy a TeX reference because
it feels like throwing money away on a format that is obsolete (except
for documents with extensive mathematical formulas).

-- 
-Mike (Iron) Orr, iron@...  (if mail problems: mso@...)
   http://iron.cx/     English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol

On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 01:47:14PM -0800, Chuck Esterbrook wrote:
> * Right now, Webware has only HTML docs, written in HTML.
> * Even if we chose LaTeX or DocBook, we would still just produce... HTML.

And ps, my favorite format for printing!!!!!

(No need for a ps vs pdf debate, Chuck. :)

Although I suppose there's an html2ps coverter somewhere.  (Yes,
Netscape does it, but it's a pain when you want to print a bunch of
documents or a hierarchy of documents at once.)

> If I do roll my own, I don't see why I would have to switch to something 
> else anytime later.

The reason to switch is when you run up against the limitations of the
structured-text format or of the tools available (or conveniently
writable) for it.  If that never happens, there's no need to
switch.

> I might spec this out. Otherwise, I'll keep thinking about it. Spec'ing 
> things usually lets me put them on a mental backburner.

And the wiki is a great place to put specs, because somebody else might
read them and contribute to them, or even do your project for you.

-- 
-Mike (Iron) Orr, iron@...  (if mail problems: mso@...)
   http://iron.cx/     English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol

Of course, like many of the proposed applications, it would make the
most sense to start from an already-existing Python application and
port it to Webware.  For CGI applications, I imagine this wouldn't be
very hard at all.

iron@... (Mike Orr) wrote:
> I added a wishlist item for Webware, a WikiKit, if anybody is interested
> in pursuing it.
> 
> Not something we need right away, but it could open up possibilities for
> embedded wikis down the road.
> 
> http://cheetah.colorstudy.net/twiki/bin/view/Webware/WishList
> 
> -- 
> -Mike (Iron) Orr, iron@...  (if mail problems: mso@...)
>    http://iron.cx/     English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol
> 
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> Webware-discuss mailing list
> Webware-discuss@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/webware-discuss
>

On Monday 05 November 2001 11:58, Mike Orr wrote:
> I added a wishlist item for Webware, a WikiKit, if anybody is
> interested in pursuing it.
>
> Not something we need right away, but it could open up
> possibilities for embedded wikis down the road.
>
> http://cheetah.colorstudy.net/twiki/bin/view/Webware/WishList

This is already on the Webware Wiki.  Have look at 
http://webware.colorstudy.net/twiki/bin/view/Webware/AppIdeas

On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 12:14:13PM -0800, Tavis Rudd wrote:
> On Monday 05 November 2001 11:58, Mike Orr wrote:
> > I added a wishlist item for Webware, a WikiKit, if anybody is
> > interested in pursuing it.
> >
> > Not something we need right away, but it could open up
> > possibilities for embedded wikis down the road.
> >
> > http://cheetah.colorstudy.net/twiki/bin/view/Webware/WishList
> 
> This is already on the Webware Wiki.  Have look at 
> http://webware.colorstudy.net/twiki/bin/view/Webware/AppIdeas

So, where does it belong?  Is it a wishlist item or an app?

-- 
-Mike (Iron) Orr, iron@...  (if mail problems: mso@...)
   http://iron.cx/     English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol

On Monday 05 November 2001 13:51, Mike Orr wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 12:14:13PM -0800, Tavis Rudd wrote:
> > On Monday 05 November 2001 11:58, Mike Orr wrote:
> > > I added a wishlist item for Webware, a WikiKit, if anybody is
> > > interested in pursuing it.
> > >
> > > Not something we need right away, but it could open up
> > > possibilities for embedded wikis down the road.
> > >
> > > http://cheetah.colorstudy.net/twiki/bin/view/Webware/WishList
> >
> > This is already on the Webware Wiki.  Have look at
> > http://webware.colorstudy.net/twiki/bin/view/Webware/AppIdeas
>
> So, where does it belong?  Is it a wishlist item or an app?

AppIdeas is where I'd put it.

> So, where does it belong?  Is it a wishlist item or an app?

I think WishList is for changes to the internals or interface of
Webware, while AppIdeas are for more external things.  A (as yet
fictional) KitIdeas might be somewhere inbetween.  I can imagine a
WikiKit which is much more integrated into Webware than an application
would be -- allowing online editting of arbitrary objects and
servlets.  A traditional Wiki could be built ontop of that.

The idea is really quite close to Zope, really... though it's not
really well-defined enough to be more than a glimmer in the eye.  It
would be a pretty complicated kit.

  Ian

On Mon, Nov 05, 2001 at 01:50:38PM -0800, Tavis Rudd wrote:
> > > This is already on the Webware Wiki.  Have look at
> > > http://webware.colorstudy.net/twiki/bin/view/Webware/AppIdeas
> >
> > So, where does it belong?  Is it a wishlist item or an app?
> 
> AppIdeas is where I'd put it.

I added cross-references on the WishList and AppIdeas page.  Chuck, can
you adjust the text to reflect what you want on each page?

http://webware.colorstudy.net/twiki/bin/preview/Webware/WishList
http://webware.colorstudy.net/twiki/bin/view/Webware/AppIdeas

-- 
-Mike (Iron) Orr, iron@...  (if mail problems: mso@...)
   http://iron.cx/     English * Esperanto * Russkiy * Deutsch * Espan~ol