Synfig

2012/5/13 Carlos Lopez Gonzalez <carloslopezgonzalez@...>:
> Hi!
> here are my thoughts:
> Duck: this name caused troubles from the first day and it should be fit in
> some way. Control point is ok. Perhaps for BLines's vertices it is perfect
> but for other kind of parameters it is not full perfect. What about
> "Handle"?. It is just a suggestion because I like Control point.

I like "control point" too.

> Curves panel: I'm unsure about this. Graphs panel is the most liked by me.

Yes, my vote is for Graphs panel too.
"Parameter-Animation-Curves", or just "Parameter Curves" - looks too
complex and... there is "curves".

> BLine: I prefer Curve. The "Create curve gradient BLine" is wrong. It should
> be "Create curved Gradient Layer". There are some mistakes on the English
> version of the BLine tool. But on the other hand "Path tool" sounds better
> than "Curve tool" :-/

I don't like path, because it have double meaning when you deal with
animation. "Path" can be treated as trajectory - this is not good.

> -Encapsulate → Group half OK, though I did like the capsule analogy… it
> illustrates well to me the fact that each capsule isolates its content from
> the rest, more than the generic "group" word.

Yes, it illustrates. But the "encapsulate" is less intuitive for most users.

> Groups & Encapsulate: I like both like they are now. I think that the
> problem is that all that slang of Paste Canvas Layer, inline canvas etc,
> confuses newbies from the first day.

The thing is that we started to talk about terminology is because of
our conversation with Timothée after his talk. We were discussing
details and I have noticed that most of the time he says "Group"
instead of "Encapsulate". I've pointed that this could be confusing.
Also I remebered other people that use such term in casual talk.
That's how this "terminology rethinking" theme have been brought up.

> The simple logic would tell the newbie
> that "Encapsulate" produces a "Capsule" and now a weird "Paste Canvas
> layer". If we go to Group by encapsulate and Set by Groups, we need to
> change the metaphor of the icon of the Group, Add to Group and Remove from
> Group.

I don't see problem - the current group icons fit  well with"sets"
terminology as well.

> Also the capsule icon for the Paste Canvas layer and the Encapsulate
> action icon should be changed to something different (perhaps go back to the
> old brown paste canvas folder icon.

Yes. And in fact I like the "old brown" icon better, because it looks
more intuitive (from my point of view).

> Also it might be needed to change Paste
> Canvas layer to Group layer. That would make more sense.

Agree.

> I would like to add one new one:
> CPoint (formerly Color Point) should be changed to Color stop as in all
> applications.

Yes, we should add this to the list.


K.


> ________________________________
> De: Timothée Giet <animtim@...>
> Para: synfig-devl@...
> Enviado: Viernes 11 de Mayo de 2012 15:22
> Asunto: Re: [Synfig-devl] Hi Synfig devs
>
> Cool, I'm glad you agree with this Genete.
> About the variables names, I don't have much to say as I don't really code
> myself, so it's up to you to decide if it's needed.
>
> Thanks for the list Zelgadis, here is my opinion:
>
> -Duck → Control point = OK (Although the name of Ducks will probably stay in
> my mind a long time now… was kinda funny :D )
> -Curves Panel → I propose "Parameter-Animation-Curves", or just "Parameter
> Curves" (I thought about having a name like IPO curves in blender as it
> looks similar, although for now in synfig it's only a visual
> representation,(right?!) no control/handles on it directly, so is not an
> "IPO", but still a curve). Parameter Graph would be fine too.
> -Bline → I propose "Path" , more precise than Curve in our context as it can
> be used to draw different kinds of Paths, and is also better to replace in
> "Create Curve gradient Bline" for example ;) .
> -Groups → Sets OK (I agree as its a special way to group items, different
> from the common understanding of layer groups in other softs or like we have
> we have in encapsulating, so better to use another word; and "Sets" does fit
> the pupose to make some sets of layer types).
> -Encapsulate → Group half OK, though I did like the capsule analogy… it
> illustrates well to me the fact that each capsule isolates its content from
> the rest, more than the generic "group" word.
> So if some else want to keep the encapsulate terminology (and maybe then we
> can use the term "capsule" for the group, as represented by its icon)…
> But if everyone wants to go for "To Group" in "Groups", then I'm fine with
> it.
>
> Waiting your comments
> Tim
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
> Synfig-devl mailing list
> Synfig-devl@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/synfig-devl
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
> Synfig-devl mailing list
> Synfig-devl@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/synfig-devl
>



-- 
http://morevnaproject.org/

So for now we agree on:

-Control points : OK  (genete: I like the "handle" idea too, but let's
shoose "control point" if everyone agree… is still more precise, and I
think it works well also for all kind of points, as they are still here to
control something. And it fits Inkscape terminology. On this point I think
now it's even more important to get terminology compatible with Inkscape as
much as possible, if we want to support the "Inkscape to synfig" export
workflow…)

-Graph panel : OK (I agree it's the best suggestion here)

-Cpoint → Color Stop : Ok sure :)

-Encapsulate and Paste canvas layer→ Group and Group Layer : OK (indeed
even for me it's the most intuitive term to use here)
-Groups → Sets  : so OK (about the icons, I agree to get back the brown
icon for the layer groups, and for the sets as Zelgadis I think current
icons could stay, not really a problem… but if you really want some new
ones Genete, I can make some ;) )

Now about Bline→ Curve or Path , Path still looks the best choice to me… As
genete said, "Path tool" sounds better; about confusion with animation path
Zelgadis said, it makes me even more think that path is the right word as
you can animate following a path… it makes sense. Also again it fits
Inkscape /general vector tools terminology, so it would be good to use this
word. But if you two prefer Curve, let's use it, I agree it's a hard
choice… Checking the "Bezier curve" wikipedia page carefully, both terms
could fit.

Waiting for you two (and if any other have something to say about this…) to
confirm (or not) the list, and give your final choices.


Tim

Hi

1)
Regarding encapsulate and group, I have to point out that synfig layer
is primitive layer, in other graphics softwares in the world,
they are normally defined as objects, take a look at Adobe Illustrator or
Inkscape. There is another key point I have to mention capsulated
layers are not 100% the same as group layers in other software, a
capsulated layer is a canvas (exported or inline) in fact in synfig world.
If
we rename it to group, a user (newbie) will still expect it behaves as in
other graphic softwares. so from my point of view this renaming can
not solve the  problem we are trying to solve.

Yes, I redesigned group and inline canvas icons[1], there was some facts
when I did them: I didn't know what exactly the inline canvas and
group meaning in synfig, as most of newbies come from other graphics world,
you can see at the forum discussions, I made a proposal
using a "Folder" metaphor for inline canvas and for group too. From this
mistake I made, we can have some valuable things: renaming
inline canvas/encapsulate to Group can help but impede a user to catch
synfig concept quickly. We all have to agree that "ease to learn" is
not our main target since doing full feature animation movie with computer
is not a ease job.


If we finally make the decision that we have to rename encapsulate to
group, group to sets, it will fine to me. but I can't agree with
"keeping the current group icon as sets icon". Imaging a newbie come from
other graphics software which has group layer concept as
in the most graphics software,  s/he except the "sets" behaves as group
layer since most softwares use "Folder" icon as group layer.

>From UX point of view (I am doing researching job for UI Redesign), Group
concept in current synfig will be replace be a filter system of
layers, I have some initial ideas in my mind: each layer can be tagged by
user, and can be filtered. I will find time to draw some mockups
and post in here or forums to brainstorm.

2)
For BLine, I have one proposal : just use "Line". Curve is fine to me too,
be based on my experience, if I saw a word curve, I will always
expect the line is a non-straight line :) BLine can be a straight line,
isn't it?


Just my two cents.


[1] http://www.synfig.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1362&start=30


~ yu



2012/5/13 Timothée Giet <animtim@...>

> So for now we agree on:
>
> -Control points : OK  (genete: I like the "handle" idea too, but let's
> shoose "control point" if everyone agree… is still more precise, and I
> think it works well also for all kind of points, as they are still here to
> control something. And it fits Inkscape terminology. On this point I think
> now it's even more important to get terminology compatible with Inkscape as
> much as possible, if we want to support the "Inkscape to synfig" export
> workflow…)
>
> -Graph panel : OK (I agree it's the best suggestion here)
>
> -Cpoint → Color Stop : Ok sure :)
>
> -Encapsulate and Paste canvas layer→ Group and Group Layer : OK (indeed
> even for me it's the most intuitive term to use here)
> -Groups → Sets  : so OK (about the icons, I agree to get back the brown
> icon for the layer groups, and for the sets as Zelgadis I think current
> icons could stay, not really a problem… but if you really want some new
> ones Genete, I can make some ;) )
>
> Now about Bline→ Curve or Path , Path still looks the best choice to me…
> As genete said, "Path tool" sounds better; about confusion with animation
> path Zelgadis said, it makes me even more think that path is the right word
> as you can animate following a path… it makes sense. Also again it fits
> Inkscape /general vector tools terminology, so it would be good to use this
> word. But if you two prefer Curve, let's use it, I agree it's a hard
> choice… Checking the "Bezier curve" wikipedia page carefully, both terms
> could fit.
>
> Waiting for you two (and if any other have something to say about this…)
> to confirm (or not) the list, and give your final choices.
>
>
> Tim
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> Live Security Virtual Conference
> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
> _______________________________________________
> Synfig-devl mailing list
> Synfig-devl@...
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/synfig-devl
>
>

typo:

>>>renaming inline canvas/encapsulate to Group can help but impede a user
to catch synfig concept quickly.

renaming inline canvas/encapsulate to Group can not help but impede a user
to catch synfig concept quickly.

~ yu



2012/5/13 Yu Chen <jcomee@...>

> Hi
>
> 1)
> Regarding encapsulate and group, I have to point out that synfig layer
> is primitive layer, in other graphics softwares in the world,
> they are normally defined as objects, take a look at Adobe Illustrator or
> Inkscape. There is another key point I have to mention capsulated
> layers are not 100% the same as group layers in other software, a
> capsulated layer is a canvas (exported or inline) in fact in synfig world.
> If
> we rename it to group, a user (newbie) will still expect it behaves as in
> other graphic softwares. so from my point of view this renaming can
> not solve the  problem we are trying to solve.
>
> Yes, I redesigned group and inline canvas icons[1], there was some facts
> when I did them: I didn't know what exactly the inline canvas and
>  group meaning in synfig, as most of newbies come from other graphics
> world, you can see at the forum discussions, I made a proposal
> using a "Folder" metaphor for inline canvas and for group too. From this
> mistake I made, we can have some valuable things: renaming
> inline canvas/encapsulate to Group can help but impede a user to catch
> synfig concept quickly. We all have to agree that "ease to learn" is
> not our main target since doing full feature animation movie with computer
> is not a ease job.
>
>
> If we finally make the decision that we have to rename encapsulate to
> group, group to sets, it will fine to me. but I can't agree with
> "keeping the current group icon as sets icon". Imaging a newbie come from
> other graphics software which has group layer concept as
> in the most graphics software,  s/he except the "sets" behaves as group
> layer since most softwares use "Folder" icon as group layer.
>
> From UX point of view (I am doing researching job for UI Redesign), Group
> concept in current synfig will be replace be a filter system of
> layers, I have some initial ideas in my mind: each layer can be tagged by
> user, and can be filtered. I will find time to draw some mockups
> and post in here or forums to brainstorm.
>
> 2)
> For BLine, I have one proposal : just use "Line". Curve is fine to me too,
> be based on my experience, if I saw a word curve, I will always
> expect the line is a non-straight line :) BLine can be a straight line,
> isn't it?
>
>
> Just my two cents.
>
>
> [1] http://www.synfig.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1362&start=30
>
>
> ~ yu
>
>
>
> 2012/5/13 Timothée Giet <animtim@...>
>
>>  So for now we agree on:
>>
>> -Control points : OK  (genete: I like the "handle" idea too, but let's
>> shoose "control point" if everyone agree… is still more precise, and I
>> think it works well also for all kind of points, as they are still here to
>> control something. And it fits Inkscape terminology. On this point I think
>> now it's even more important to get terminology compatible with Inkscape as
>> much as possible, if we want to support the "Inkscape to synfig" export
>> workflow…)
>>
>> -Graph panel : OK (I agree it's the best suggestion here)
>>
>> -Cpoint → Color Stop : Ok sure :)
>>
>> -Encapsulate and Paste canvas layer→ Group and Group Layer : OK (indeed
>> even for me it's the most intuitive term to use here)
>> -Groups → Sets  : so OK (about the icons, I agree to get back the brown
>> icon for the layer groups, and for the sets as Zelgadis I think current
>> icons could stay, not really a problem… but if you really want some new
>> ones Genete, I can make some ;) )
>>
>> Now about Bline→ Curve or Path , Path still looks the best choice to me…
>> As genete said, "Path tool" sounds better; about confusion with animation
>> path Zelgadis said, it makes me even more think that path is the right word
>> as you can animate following a path… it makes sense. Also again it fits
>> Inkscape /general vector tools terminology, so it would be good to use this
>> word. But if you two prefer Curve, let's use it, I agree it's a hard
>> choice… Checking the "Bezier curve" wikipedia page carefully, both terms
>> could fit.
>>
>> Waiting for you two (and if any other have something to say about this…)
>> to confirm (or not) the list, and give your final choices.
>>
>>
>> Tim
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>> Live Security Virtual Conference
>> Exclusive live event will cover all the ways today's security and
>> threat landscape has changed and how IT managers can respond. Discussions
>> will include endpoint security, mobile security and the latest in malware
>> threats. http://www.accelacomm.com/jaw/sfrnl04242012/114/50122263/
>> _______________________________________________
>> Synfig-devl mailing list
>> Synfig-devl@...
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/synfig-devl
>>
>>
>