On Di, 2007-01-02 at 22:44 +0000, Richard Ash wrote:
> On Mon, 2007-01-01 at 20:34 +0200, F Wolff wrote:
> > Thank you, Richard.
> > Just a few questions:
> > * Are fuzzy messages currently used? I saw a strange link on one pag=
> > that seems to be because of a fuzzy message being used. Mostly not a
> > big issue as I'm currently updating the translation anyway.
> We use a custom message merge script that Dominic wrote, which uses som=
> fuzzy translations but has a stricter definition of fuzzy than the
> normal msgmerge (to try and avoid spurious matches).
I see. But are fuzzy messages used as translations for the website, or
do they fall back to English / another language when they are fuzzy?
> > * Several translatable sentences are constructed without the full st=
> > and then the full stop is added in the code. Is this safe to do? Won'=
> > some languages require control over their ending punctuation? I _thi=
> > Khmer for example does not use a full stop at the end of sentences. T=
> > even makes it a bit difficult for somebody who would need the full st=
> > since we might add it under the assumption that the English is wrong.
> > Then we will end with two full stops.
> Seems fair to me. I can't see any reason why we shouldn't put the full
> stop inside the translated string.
> > * The message currently at download/plugins.php:20 ("Audacity has
> > built-in support...") does not have a full stop, and, in contrast wit=
> > the ones mentioned before, actually seems to need it.
> I agree, that needs a full stop, so I've added it (inside the translate=
> string) to the site. I went through and checked the fuzzy translations
> that produced - it turns out a majority already had a full stops! I've
> fixed all the fuzzys except the ones in non-eurpoean scripts where I
> didn't know what to.
> > * Not everything on community/developers is internationalised. See t=
> > section on CVS for example.
> I can't see anything except the actual CVS checkout URLs which isn't
> translated - am I missing something?
It could be me, but I don't find any of the messages under the heading
"CVS" in the pot file or my PO file. For example:
"You can get the latest development code from our CVS repository."
I think the following diff might fix it, although I didn't test it:
RCS file: /cvsroot/audacity/htdocs/community/developers.php,v
retrieving revision 1.8
diff -u -p -r1.8 developers.php
--- community/developers.php 17 May 2006 23:58:33 -0000 1.8
+++ community/developers.php 4 Jan 2007 15:41:57 -0000
@@ -17,21 +17,21 @@
<p><?=3D_('Join the <a href=3D"../contact/lists#devel">audacity-devel</a=
> mailing list to discuss current and future development, or to get help =
building and modifying the Audacity source code.')?></p>
-<p><?=3D('You can get the latest development code from our CVS repositor=
+<p><?=3D_('You can get the latest development code from our CVS reposito=
- <li><p><a href=3D"http://audacity.cvs.sourceforge.net/audacity"><?=3D(=
'Browse the Audacity source code online.')?></a></p></li>
+ <li><p><a href=3D"http://audacity.cvs.sourceforge.net/audacity"><?=3D_=
('Browse the Audacity source code online.')?></a></p></li>
- <li><p><?=3D('Use this command to check out the latest Audacity stable=
source code from CVS:')?> (1.2)</p>
+ <li><p><?=3D_('Use this command to check out the latest Audacity stabl=
e source code from CVS:')?> (1.2)</p>
/audacity checkout -r AUDACITY_1_2 audacity</kbd></p></li>
- <li><p><?=3D('Or use this command to check out the latest Audacity uns=
table/development source code from CVS:')?> (1.3)</p>
+ <li><p><?=3D_('Or use this command to check out the latest Audacity un=
stable/development source code from CVS:')?> (1.3)</p>
/audacity checkout audacity</kbd></p></li>
-<p><?=3D('For more information, read the <a href=3D"http://sourceforge.n=
et/cvs/?group_id=3D6235">SourceForge CVS instructions</a>.')?></p>
-<p><?=3D('See the source code page for <a href=3D"../download/source#ins=
+<p><?=3D_('For more information, read the <a href=3D"http://sourceforge.=
net/cvs/?group_id=3D6235">SourceForge CVS instructions</a>.')?></p>
+<p><?=3D_('See the source code page for <a href=3D"../download/source#in=
<?php printf(_('<h3 id=3D"bugzilla">Bugzilla</h3>
<p>The Audacity developers use <a href=3D"%s/">Bugzilla</a> to keep trac=
k of confirmed bugs. Check the list of <a href=3D"%s/buglist.cgi?bug_sta=
tus=3DNEW&bug_status=3DASSIGNED&bug_status=3DREOPENED">open bugs</a> if y=
ou are looking for something to work on.</p>
> > * The news entries (notably the current front page news, "Audacity
> > 1.3.2 and 1.2.5 Released") are extremely long. Isn't it possible to c=
> > it up into a few smaller chunks? Currently it is difficult or
> > impossible to use translation memories, or to reuse this translation
> > elsewhere. It is a bit frustrating if I can't even complete the
> > translation of _one_ message in a five minute break :-)
> Not being a translator, I've never been sure which way to go with thing=
> like this. Is breaking down into short chunks (a sentance? a paragraph?=
> more helpful than the context provided by keeping stuff together? I tak=
> it from what you say that the former is better?
Well, people might not necessarily agree, so I'll try to give a safe
answer. As I mentioned, having such big messages are just very hard to
use, review, and it is a bit disheartening. Since many people rely on
message based statistics, they might have no idea how much work is left
to translate the "10 untranslated messages" unless the tool also
provides word counts (like Pootle does).
To split it any finer than paragraphs might be risky, since languages
don't necessarily split sentences the same way. It might even happen
that people might want to slightly reorder sentences or reword in a way
that they will be difficult to review without really understanding the
context very well.
I would recommend therefore to split on paragraphs, but headings and the
bullet list can probably have each item in a separate message. Looking
at the current front page, I think having a message such as "Intel Mac
support" on its own could make it easier to check for consistent
translations of that terms elsewhere with a tool like poconflicts  or
perhaps the po-lint(?) tools (I think).
I don't foresee anybody wanting to translate the bullet list in a
different order or anything like that.
This split will at least enable us to translate the prose, which is
perhaps more important for users interested in a translated page. It
might be a bit more work in the PHP to remove the html tags out of the
translation, but doing it this way should remove a lot of possibilities
for translation errors with the tags and make review much easier.
Any other comments from other translators?
> > * Ditto for some of the release notes.
> > =20
> > * Talking about release notes, perhaps we can include the fact that =
> > Afrikaans translation made it into 1.2.5?
> Oops. Release notes are a bit of a faff because they are usually writte=
> up as a text file in the source code CVS, and then copy-and-pasted to
> the website. As a result I'm unwilling to mess with the 1.2.5 notes
> (because they are in all the tarballs etc). We can try and do better
> with the next round, at least in terms of getting them translatable (I
> hope we get it right, as well ...).=20
> > * I'm just wondering about the use of smart quotes (=B4Bla=A1 instea=
> > "Bla"): In cases where people are using some non-Latin font and a
> > message is untranslated, don't we stand the danger of the quotes not
> > being displayed properly in the English fallback? Furthermore I find =
> > a bit cumbersome to type, but I guess I'm just lazy ;-)
> Do we have any smart quotes on the site? I can't think how I'd put one
> into a page, but it's quite likely there are some I just haven't seen.
> Can you point me at an example?
I think I saw it in several places, but that is one I could quickly
> > * Is it possible to localise the Google form? (include/header.inc.ph=
> > It would even be nice if we are able give the Google URL to the
> > localised version, but I guess this is not so important.
> > * Ditto for the alt text for the Store image (line 73, alt=3D"Audaci=
> > Store")
> I can do that one, it will show up as the string for translation in
> include/header.inc.php (because that's where the string actually lives)=
> It should be in the .po files / pot file on CVS now.
I see the alt tag is fixed in header.inc.php, but it is not available in
May I further suggest this patch for the Google form:
--- include/header.inc.php 2 Jan 2007 21:23:48 -0000 1.8
+++ include/header.inc.php 4 Jan 2007 16:07:51 -0000
@@ -27,7 +27,7 @@
<input type=3D"hidden" name=3D"domains" value=3D"audacity.sourceforge.ne=
<input type=3D"text" name=3D"q" size=3D"31" maxlength=3D"255" value=3D""=
-<input type=3D"submit" name=3D"sa" value=3D"Search"></input>
+<input type=3D"submit" name=3D"sa" value=3D"<?=3D_('Search')?>"></input>
@@ -36,7 +36,7 @@
<input type=3D"radio" name=3D"sitesearch" value=3D""></input>
-<font size=3D"-1" color=3D"#000000">Web</font>
+<font size=3D"-1" color=3D"#000000"><?=3D_('Web')?></font>
<input type=3D"radio" name=3D"sitesearch" value=3D"audacity.sourceforge.=
This does not make "Google" localisable, I guess some languages would
want that, but I don't know how commonly that is needed. Comments?
 - http://translate.sourceforge.net/wiki/toolkit/poconflict